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Disheartened about the current stance on Elves


Thiagoma

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35 minutes ago, Overread said:

There is no guarantee, but there is an expectation that GW sell stuff that will - you know - last. Most armies do in fact last a long while. Squatting is famous but its actually (until AoS launched) super rare to occur. More likely is that individual models or niche groups of models are retired. For example specialist Imperial Guard variations have appeared and retired over the years - however most are generic enough that they can count-as a regular IG army without any issues. 

Squatting is always the great fear - it happened once and was a fear story for years that Necron, Dark Eldar and other faction players have feared would happen. 

 

Also in your example Darkling Covens (until christmas) had a specific product page, they have lore, they have a dedicate section of pages in the Generals Handbook. They are a functional usable army and if GW's plan is to retire them fully then most would assume GW would do it now rather than waiting for a random point in the future. 

 

As I said-you but the models and the models only. An expectation is not the same as a promise, gurantee, offer or intimation, none of which GW have made. It’s possible to have expectations and for them to be wrong. 

But as you state *right now* Darkling Coven are a useable army. They’re not the best army competitively speaking. But again they were never sold as such. Someone might have bought them with the expectation they would be competitive but that’s on them. The most basic of research would have told them otherwise. They might have bought them believing a Battletome was coming. Again, that’s their choice but it’s a complete guess. They haven’t been misinformed or duped.

It’s a simple consumer equation. Most people buy things with the knowledge that  they won’t always operate at the same level of function or efficiency or purpose. Dont know why people think GW products should be any different.

If GW want to sell Dark Elves until they’re no longer profitable then they’re completley free to and they might just do that. They’re not publically funded, my taxes aren’t paying for me to play every GW faction that I might want to and forvthem to be evenly matched to all the others. They’re a multi million pound business who operate on the assumption that consumers buy something if they want it now or don’t if they don’t. There’s no moral dimension here.

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Probably because GW's armies can take years to build. No joke its a slow product not a fast one. A new ipad can come out each year and the old one is retired; GW couldn't do that because half the people or more would only have just got part way through buying, building and painting an army. 

Miniature wargames are a long term investment for most customers who are gamers. Sure any company can go belly up or any army be retired; but look at the companies who do well and you can see that where they have long standing factions which are stable they have good sales. Companies that jump army to army start to lose sales - armies left abandoned or ignored start to lose faith in customers and stagnate to nothing. 

Spartan Games did this over and over; jumping to new armies and new games so often that they wound up actually killing a good portion of their own market and ultimately it likely contributed to their eventual closure (there were other things going on too of course). And that was without them retiring armies and games - just not paying attention to them. 

 

 

Like I said "Squatting" armies is actually very rare for GW to do. If a system is selling the armies remain on sale - the only time we've ever seen them drop armies en-mass is when they've ended support for a game or when AoS launched. Otherwise their general operation has been to preserve armies and expand and support them. Heck they were slowly retiring Sisters of Battle yet now they are investing full on into them. GW and their customers want long lasting armies and support - it builds faith in the customers and customers who have faith in GW are more likely to buy more models and expand into new armies.

 

If GW started to get a reputation for retiring armies at a whim then they'd fast lose sales form new and existing customers 

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56 minutes ago, Overread said:

Probably because GW's armies can take years to build. No joke its a slow product not a fast one. A new ipad can come out each year and the old one is retired; GW couldn't do that because half the people or more would only have just got part way through buying, building and painting an army. 

Miniature wargames are a long term investment for most customers who are gamers. Sure any company can go belly up or any army be retired; but look at the companies who do well and you can see that where they have long standing factions which are stable they have good sales. Companies that jump army to army start to lose sales - armies left abandoned or ignored start to lose faith in customers and stagnate to nothing. 

Spartan Games did this over and over; jumping to new armies and new games so often that they wound up actually killing a good portion of their own market and ultimately it likely contributed to their eventual closure (there were other things going on too of course). And that was without them retiring armies and games - just not paying attention to them. 

 

 

Like I said "Squatting" armies is actually very rare for GW to do. If a system is selling the armies remain on sale - the only time we've ever seen them drop armies en-mass is when they've ended support for a game or when AoS launched. Otherwise their general operation has been to preserve armies and expand and support them. Heck they were slowly retiring Sisters of Battle yet now they are investing full on into them. GW and their customers want long lasting armies and support - it builds faith in the customers and customers who have faith in GW are more likely to buy more models and expand into new armies.

 

If GW started to get a reputation for retiring armies at a whim then they'd fast lose sales form new and existing customers 

People can still sell models that no longer work with games systems. And they do. I do in fact. In many cases they sell for more money. So they dont lose any value as a product in that respect. 

If smeone is building an army over a year with the assumption and expectation that it will be useable in its current rule set in 365 days time, that’s completely based on expectation and assumption. There is literally nothing on the product or within the terms of sale that says that will be the case.

You're right that repeat squatting would be ridiculous, but it’s not something GW does. And that’s not what has happened here. The vast majority of elf models still have rules are playable. And even if they do get squatted in say a year’s time, they will have existed as a hangover from a thirty year old game (which many people still play) for more than four years into a completely different one and have been on sale as models for about a decade. It’s hardly a sudden devastating abandonment is it.

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"Not sure if anyone's already talked about it, but we got a little lore tidbit about aelves of Ulgu in the second Inferno! volume. From 'At the sign of the Braven Claw Part 2' it describes aelves who retreated into the shadows and deep within mountains and are called "kuru elgi, or the grey aelves, because of the colours they wear to blend into the mists, and the magic they weave about themselves to hide.""

 

A quote from the Rumor Thread that looks interesting regarding this conversation. Points a bit into a separation of "high" and "dark" elves in the future. Maybe a new copyright name for both areas? Who knows?

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55 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

"Not sure if anyone's already talked about it, but we got a little lore tidbit about aelves of Ulgu in the second Inferno! volume. From 'At the sign of the Braven Claw Part 2' it describes aelves who retreated into the shadows and deep within mountains and are called "kuru elgi, or the grey aelves, because of the colours they wear to blend into the mists, and the magic they weave about themselves to hide.""

We've also see those same Aelves in Warqueen and we've the misty Aelf unique hero model that's been around for quite a while now. Which honestly sets the scene pretty strongly for them being Malarions Aelves which means we can expect his force to be quite dominant in that kind of creature (so less likely to blend in Darkling Covens, but might merge well with serpentis) 

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On 1/16/2019 at 9:05 AM, xking said:

While I truly believe the Empire stuff will go away, I don't think the elf stuff will. 

Sorry for the thread necromancy but assuming GHB Allegiance = Safe then GW is going to keep the empire stuff on life support I imagine. I mean Brayherds had an allegiance...and then poof, BoC.

 

BTW has ANYONE actually looked at the official Age of Sigmar website. Kind of interesting they do in fact still have an "Aelves" faction profile.

Quote

Long-lived, lightly armoured and supremely skilled, the aelven armies of Azyr and the Free Cities each focus on aspects of their martial existence. An aelven army might include dragon-riding wizards, phoenix-mounted heroes, brave Lionheart Rangers or piratical Scourge Privaters – to name just a few. Aelves offer an army with a long history and plenty of opportunity to customise your play style in almost any way you desire.

 

Also for comparison, they technically didn't update it to call the Grots the Gloomspite Gitz. But it's basically spot on. And yes no mentioning of the squatted Gitmob. (I think this part of the website was created in early 2.0 edition.)

Quote

Individually small, weak and cowardly, when they band together, grotz can be easily as deadly as their larger green-skinned brethren. From the fungus-fuelled magics of the Moonclan to the Spiderfang grots and their terrifying arachnid mounts, and aided by vicious and durable troggoths, grots are not a force to be underestimated.

 

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1 hour ago, kenshin620 said:

BTW has ANYONE actually looked at the official Age of Sigmar website. Kind of interesting they do in fact still have an "Aelves" faction profile.

There are rumours that they're doing Light Aelves - some sort of winged faction. I don't know if that's true or not, but it could be interesting.

I think it would be cool to see a set of dragon rider Aelves - I'm thinking large dragons, small drakes and their current dragons etc. A relatively low model count army, effectively a cross between Beastclaw Raiders and the old High Elves as dragons are pretty much a staple of any fantasy genre, so this would have broad appeal and would sell. Dragon's are just damn cool.
I'd actually like to see GW bring out a much larger dragon kit than what they currently have to make up the bigger dragons in an army... think Stompa sized kit.

1 hour ago, kenshin620 said:

Also for comparison, they technically didn't update it to call the Grots the Gloomspite Gitz. But it's basically spot on. And yes no mentioning of the squatted Gitmob. (I think this part of the website was created in early 2.0 edition.)

Yeah, Gitmob being effectively squatted is a shame, but in the AoS redesign, it doesn't fit the aesthetic as its too "generic fantasy" even though Gitmob were the more technologically advanced of the goblins. I think that they could look at that design again in the form of a more steampunk goblin style.. Maybe not the Grotbag Scuttlers but something more ground based rust bucket machines. I think that something have a similar aesthetic to grots from 40k so the kits could be cannibalised for orks in 40k might make them more palatable for GW's business model.

 

But I digress. I think we're going to see more Aelves in the future. I just think it's really a matter of time - I'd bet a kidney they wouldn't not do it, given they've consistently had broad appeal in the past.

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Well yea I know about the light Aelf rumor, but I was mainly pointing that they seem to specifically singled out a few key units in the "generic" aelven arsenal.

Seems really odd to say stuff like that if they aren't planning a "normal aelf" book (separate from the AoS aelf factions like the shadow aelves or the light aelves).

If anything it seems to basically be like "fantasy" craftworld eldar, with Aspect Warriors. I mean yea HE's kind of did that with their elite units but now everyone may be in one faction so theres a lot of "aspect temples"

Also on the website they have "Creatures of Chaos" (which would turn into Beasts of Chaos),  "Everchosen and Slaves to Darkness" (the last Malign Portents Herald army), "Skaven" (self explanatory, but I suppose they were always inevitable), Free People (but specially mention Free Guild+Ironweld+Collegiate+Devoted of Sigmar) and the aforementioned Grots (who turned into Gloomspite Gitz).

Which is really weird since they talk about "army customization". Which I assume includes Matched Play, but why would they talk about that for many of these factions that are/were hampered by either using GA (which makes no sense to talk about specific army builds since you can bring in everyone) or a Limited Ally system. Unless of course they would get a book (and so far several of them have gotten large allegiance books)

 

The only "odd duck" from the website is the Gutbusters. Seems really weird to have them be their own thing and they completely lack any GHB allegiance, but maybe they will in fact be their own thing. It does specifically mention Firebellies and Aleguzzler Gargants being included.

So assuming they actually spelled it out in front of us, there will in fact be a "normal" aelf book. Could very much become a "no new model" situation like Skaven or Beasts of Chaos.

I mean the last thing you want to do is confuse new players on the official Age of Sigmar Website right?  To showcase a faction that won't exist? (just to be sure, they didn't have Greenskinz/Gitmobs on the site right? I would feel very silly if they did)

Just in case, the link to the pages where I'm getting the stuff from

https://ageofsigmar.com/factions/order/

 

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I think we'll see some aspects change and some stay the same but its really hard to guess what GW will do. It also depends heavily on if they are just going to revamp with a new tome and spells or if they are goign to go full on and release a bucket of new models and kits to redefine things. Right now we really have nothing to properly predict anything save that we've a decent idea that they'll keep the faction around in some form. 

The big thing as I see it is that freeguild is likely to have humans and dwarves and might even pick up some aelf kits representing a united Free Peoples of the Realms. That would leave the stage free for GW to add a totally human only faction at a latter date. It also makes sense as many of the Free Peoples settlements we see in the stories often have multi-racial peoples and armies. 

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4 hours ago, xking said:

I meant freeguild will be redone in a new aesthetic. They are going to get rid of the Empire aesthetic.

Yes because the did that to Flesh Eater Courts  to match the fluff of them being "deranged bretonnia".....

GW has shown time and time again they do not mind at all keeping many parts of their product lines static, especially since they diverted a lot of funds to their Specialist Games lines (I am still shocked Adeptus Titanicus is all plastic) or their brand new armies. I think theres a very big reason they haven't made that many new models for the "non-Herald" 2.0 armies

In the entire history of AoS they replaced one plastic kit. The Night Goblin Fanatics (and to be fair in that case, they replaced a puny 1 sprue/runner box). Ok Dark Oath may finally break that.....but who knows.

Heck look at the Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard. You can't officially buy Tallarn Desert Raiders, Mordian Iron Guard, or Vostroyan Firstborn despite them being featured as Codex-Factions. So just because something is featured heavily in the fluff, doesn't necessarily mean it'll be a model. It may be that the "Empire" models represent some free city humans, while others have a different look.

1 hour ago, xking said:

This is why it is taking so long to get a free peoples battletome. 

By that logic we can also expect a brand new revamped line of Dispossessed. Despite KO and Fyreslayers already eating a lot of the dwarf pie....

I'm not hating on new humans, I made a topic about new humans in AoS!

 

But with how they have handle the model releases (or lack of) in Non-herald armies (and even parts of the Herald armies), I have my doubts GW is willing to replace the entire empire line. I mean they still expect people to buy METAL Gutter Runners and Skryre Acolytes. In 2019 with a new skaven book!

 

Sorry for getting off topic of the aelves. I guess this is more of a general rumor topic thing.

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On 1/14/2019 at 10:26 PM, CaptainSoup said:

This story sounds like another case of betting on the wrong horse army, a story that's been told since the day AoS started pushing out battletomes. It really sucks to invest so much on an old fantasy army only to never get proper support for them in the new system. If it's any consolation, you are definitely not the only one who has been put in this scenario and your only hope is to either count-as as @Azamar said and stitch together something or hope GW creates a new battletome that sweeps your models up like LoN or the new Grots book. 

I wish you luck, friend. 

This.

However you can't really not have known this when you've invested this kind of money in it right?

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31 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

This.

However you can't really not have known this when you've invested this kind of money in it right?

Kinda. On AoS and GHB 2017, mixed Order was very viable and fun. It was reasonably competitive and allowed some interesting builds.

AoS 2.0 changed a lot the filosophy of the game, giving armies traits, prayers, artifacts and spells, making "pure armies" much more powerfull. Also 2.0 introduced the 1 in 4 allies rules that further even down the viability of armies like Phoenix Temple, Order Draconis and so on.

So we were invested on an army that was sold as a starter, we collected, we painted and got stuck on the "now what?".

Aelves are into a really unique weired spot right now and i wish we could have at least some kind of fix to allow us to play. The fragmented nature, weired battlelines makes things really complex.

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On 1/16/2019 at 5:44 PM, HollowHills said:

 

This is why I wish they would get rid. I too bought Spire of Dawn when I started AoS as I wanted an elf army. A few games against my friends stormcast later and I quickly realised that my army was a lot, lot weaker than his. 

New players go in and buy these older armies and then immediately get discouraged because they are no where close to the battletome armies on the tabletop. 

In a similar discussion on this forum I am reminded that GW doesn't really care about these facts because they only sell models....... I am actually quite shocked that some people would blame the player for poor research if they buy weaker older armies which is what i regularly see on this forum. When people come back to the game or are new they are unfamiliar with rules and buy what looks cool/fluff they like. Having noticeably weaker legacy armies is a poor business model. 

I only came back to AOS because i'm now an adult and could afford a steam tank only to realise that it doesn't fit with anything and the whole army is borderline competitive unless you use Grand Order Alliance and bring in some of the horrible looking Sigmar-Marines. 

I now play death because I wanted to get into the magic side of things but the issues brought up in these threads seem to be very common across all AOS discussion boards. 

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I guess I'm lucky, but even my very small community here is way more player-friendly than all of yours seem to be.  I bought a couple of Spires of Dawn, and played them as generic order, and then with the GHB changes, I've used them as proxies for Idoneth.  No one in my local group objected in the least, and I'm sure I could bring them to our FLGS' tourney and be welcomed there.

I understand the frustration, but I think we'll get a lot further if we're enthusiastic about high elves rather than kicking rocks with the Tomb Kings fanclub.

Adepticon is coming up, and NOVA's only 5 months away - plenty of opportunities for a nice AoS announcement.

Personally, I'm eager to see what Warcry has in store for AOS players, as I'm eager to do some conversion work.

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6 hours ago, Saxon said:

 Having noticeably weaker legacy armies is a poor business model. 

 

Maybe for some, but not for GW it isn’t. They’re doing pretty well. Trading on the FTSE 250 while making toy soldiers suggests a level of business acumen that surpasses that recieved wisdom I should have thought. 

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1 hour ago, Nos said:

Maybe for some, but not for GW it isn’t. They’re doing pretty well. Trading on the FTSE 250 while making toy soldiers suggests a level of business acumen that surpasses that recieved wisdom I should have thought. 

But could it be better with a little more effort? It's hard to keep some people invested in a game if their faction is forgotten about in the fluff and rules. As per my above story on the steam tank, i capped my investment at circa 3k points because my free peoples weren't supported. I was going to be one of those 5k point + players because i wanted everything but i can't justify the spend on an army that may or may not be supported and may or may not get an update. 

If all they did was sell toy soldiers there is no way they'd be as successful as they are. People buy into the game and the storyline. Anecdotal evidence counts for nothing I know but in my original gaming group of 8 we've already lost a draw player and a dark elf player because of a lack of support and nothing on the horizon. They stopped at about 1k points. 

I also note GW stores in Australia have massively downsized from reasonable stores to shoe boxes. Maybe all is not so rosy in the land down under. 

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2 hours ago, Saxon said:

But could it be better with a little more effort? It's hard to keep some people invested in a game if their faction is forgotten about in the fluff and rules. As per my above story on the steam tank, i capped my investment at circa 3k points because my free peoples weren't supported. I was going to be one of those 5k point + players because i wanted everything but i can't justify the spend on an army that may or may not be supported and may or may not get an update. 

If all they did was sell toy soldiers there is no way they'd be as successful as they are. People buy into the game and the storyline. Anecdotal evidence counts for nothing I know but in my original gaming group of 8 we've already lost a draw player and a dark elf player because of a lack of support and nothing on the horizon. They stopped at about 1k points. 

I also note GW stores in Australia have massively downsized from reasonable stores to shoe boxes. Maybe all is not so rosy in the land down under. 

Whatever anecdotal evidence someone might bring to the table about why/how GW  aren’t doing it right simply dosent stand up to the fact that they’ve had two years of unprecedented profit.

Of course any company could do stuff better. Google could do stuff better and be richer. But no-one in their right mind would say their business model was poor or that they didn’t know what they were doing because of that fact.

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On 3/4/2019 at 12:24 PM, Saxon said:

But could it be better with a little more effort? It's hard to keep some people invested in a game if their faction is forgotten about in the fluff and rules. As per my above story on the steam tank, i capped my investment at circa 3k points because my free peoples weren't supported. I was going to be one of those 5k point + players because i wanted everything but i can't justify the spend on an army that may or may not be supported and may or may not get an update. 

If all they did was sell toy soldiers there is no way they'd be as successful as they are. People buy into the game and the storyline. Anecdotal evidence counts for nothing I know but in my original gaming group of 8 we've already lost a draw player and a dark elf player because of a lack of support and nothing on the horizon. They stopped at about 1k points. 

I also note GW stores in Australia have massively downsized from reasonable stores to shoe boxes. Maybe all is not so rosy in the land down under. 

You don't understand.

People starting new armies is the big money maker for GW. GW tries to make it acceptable to unsupport armies the best way they can. Supporting armies or older models for armies that will stay (chaos) isn't in their own interest. And they are right: playing with 20 year old models and keep getting new rules etc etc isn't good for GW. 

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On 3/4/2019 at 11:24 AM, Saxon said:

But could it be better with a little more effort? It's hard to keep some people invested in a game if their faction is forgotten about in the fluff and rules. As per my above story on the steam tank, i capped my investment at circa 3k points because my free peoples weren't supported. I was going to be one of those 5k point + players because i wanted everything but i can't justify the spend on an army that may or may not be supported and may or may not get an update. 

If all they did was sell toy soldiers there is no way they'd be as successful as they are. People buy into the game and the storyline. Anecdotal evidence counts for nothing I know but in my original gaming group of 8 we've already lost a draw player and a dark elf player because of a lack of support and nothing on the horizon. They stopped at about 1k points. 

I also note GW stores in Australia have massively downsized from reasonable stores to shoe boxes. Maybe all is not so rosy in the land down under. 

What would be worse;

No information on what GW is doing with a faction until its released

or

GW saying they will do something and then doing something else (for whatever reason, choice, financial, legal, market response, etc.) , or doing it in a different way to what the internet has decided they will do despite a level of information provided.

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At the same time Wargamers are long term product customers. A wargamer is very unlikely to invest into an army, no matter how new, if they've a feeling that GW will ignore said army after a short period of time and retire them.

Just look what the start of AoS did - sure there were new customers, but almost all the legacy customers were up in arms esp when GW started dropping large factions. 

 

It worries gamers - it scares them. An army might take someone 5 years or more to build; if that is the product lifespan then they are wasting their efforts. Armies without updates die. 

 

 

However if GW supports an army and releases new models for it and updates old sculpts it keeps gamers around. They are far more likely to invest heavily into a brand new army if they feel that its going to be kept around. Plus look at active gamers model collections. Most who game for a long while will happily replace old models for new ones with new designs; improved details, new weapon options and looks. Most who remain active long term will be buying brand new models when GW releases them - they even ask and want them. 

Sure a new army with good rules will sell, but look at Skaven - a super old army with a lot of legacy models and its selling REALLY well right now. Legacy gamers are adding to their collections - new gamers are buying into them. You can bet if they release new plastic models then even though with old rat ogres are likely going to steadily update them to newer better sculpts. 

Heck look at the chaos update going on right now for 40K - many of the models are jsut redesigns of old ones and updates here and there. Heck the signature character hero for Chaos has been released several times and yet you know he's going to sell well.

 

 

Wargamers and wargames are not like mobile phones. GW can't abandon old stuff outright. IT turns away all those customers instantly (they are far less inclined to just buy a new army if their pride and joy just got removed); it discourages others from investing into many other armies and it doesn't do their public relations any good. In short its a lose lose situation. Sure sometimes it has to happen or it will happen because of various outside factors; but each time its never an all round positive experience. 

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50 minutes ago, Overread said:

GW can't abandon old stuff outright. IT turns away all those customers instantly (they are far less inclined to just buy a new army if their pride and joy just got removed); it discourages others from investing into many other armies and it doesn't do their public relations any good. In short its a lose lose situation. Sure sometimes it has to happen or it will happen because of various outside factors; but each time its never an all round positive experience. 

They can and they do. Obviously they wont do so without reason,  but they do not have infinate resource and if predictions suggest investing time into a new faction will yield better sales than a codex or battletome for older stuff, then we see what they do.

If you have evidence of the opposite, share it with them, but im pretty sure they know the score, especially given so many senior staff have graduated to management from shop floor and through numerous other roles. Its the same reason narrative and open exist, despite gamers saying no-one plays it the have significant experience that it is.

Everyone tottally agrees with what you repeatedly say and im sure GW staff dont want to alienate or drive people away (from what is also their passionate hobby dont forget!), but you cant please everyone, and you cant run a business on the wishes of people who dont seem to spend money.

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To be sure they have to follow the money and viable returns on investment otherwise they would sink - the key is that they should retain updates to armies overall not leave them for long periods. Look at how Sisters of Battle are being brought back from the edge of death not because they weren't liked originally, but becuase they got no updates for a very long time. Leaving them with older and more expensive models and a more limited range in comparison to other armies. 

 

 

Just as a new army can result in a spike in sales, an updated old one can result in steady income over time and a return on the entire investment. Furthermore consider that to update Skaven and FEC Gw spent very little - one new sculpt and 4 terrain/endles spells that are produced overseas - ergo for the cost of 5 or 6 new models and a battletome they've had a huge spike in sales likely akin to releasing a new army without all the heavy investment and uncertainty of releasing a new force. 

Now Granted AoS is having drops and part of that is because it was very messy at its launch and had issues with old world fantasy also being very unpopular near its end. Plus there were big management changes so AoS has got a lot of company end drama and finances messing the waters up for it. 40K is a clearer picture and over there they've removed very little in general - Squats are the famous lost army meanwhile most losses are only variations within armies - unique Imperial Guard faction detachments; Heroes and leaders etc... It's a steady turnover of loss and gain within armies that have remained long term rather than wiping out armies and bringing in new ones. 

 

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