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Disheartened about the current stance on Elves


Thiagoma

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16 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Wrong. No one allows old battalions that aren't listed in the most recent GHB, for instance some of the old khorne and stormcast battalions from their v1 tomes are no longer allowed despite having previously had matched play points. 

There is specifically an FAQ answer which says warscrolls from sources not in battletomes are valid until they are replaced. 

Yes some people blinker themselves to GHB only, however this is only going to lead to problems in the future as White Dwarf starts releasing issues with new rules for AoS (Feb is set to give new rules for Stormcast Hammers of Sigmar) which have been specified as intended for match play.

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1 hour ago, stato said:

There is specifically an FAQ answer which says warscrolls from sources not in battletomes are valid until they are replaced. 

Yes some people blinker themselves to GHB only, however this is only going to lead to problems in the future as White Dwarf starts releasing issues with new rules for AoS (Feb is set to give new rules for Stormcast Hammers of Sigmar) which have been specified as intended for match play.

By that logic it's impossible to remove the guardians of the dawnspire battalion from the game unless they print an faq explicitly stating the fact. There is never going to be a battletome including it. 

It used to be in the old GH and then they decided not to print it in the new one. From that point of view its not legal. I wouldn't allow it at any tournament I've organised. 

If they add something between handbooks then obviously that's valid until the next one. So if they put a battalion in WD now with points then it would be valid up until GH19. If it then appears in GH19 its still valid, if not its illegal. Simple. 

 

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9 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

By that logic it's impossible to remove the guardians of the dawnspire battalion from the game unless they print an faq explicitly stating the fact. There is never going to be a battletome including it. 

It used to be in the old GH and then they decided not to print it in the new one. From that point of view its not legal. I wouldn't allow it at any tournament I've organised. 

If they add something between handbooks then obviously that's valid until the next one. So if they put a battalion in WD now with points then it would be valid up until GH19. If it then appears in GH19 its still valid, if not its illegal. Simple. 

 

You can do what you want in your games, doesnt mean you can tell others how to play their game.

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Shame as it is I dont think you’re going to get Old World elves for the same reason GW named them Aelves. They want their own thing. I’m enjoying the reimagined races and the Mortal Realms as a whole. Not because I hated Warhammer, as I love it, but I’d much rather they make a clean break and do something different given the circumstances in which they left the Old World.  

What the newer races lack in respect to the pedigree the Old World armies enjoyed, they more than make up for in a focussed essence. And if you look at Warhammer from about 1-4th edition I would argue that AOS is closer to that than Warhammer was after 5th edition. The fantasy is less coherent from a lore perspective  but it’s far more fantastical. 

I don’t want to upset anyone clinging to Old World armies but I think there’s little evidence to suggest AOS has any intent in supporting them going forward. It’s not Warhammer, bottom line. If you take it in it’s own terms rather than treat it as a bastardisation of a system that it now manifestly has no interest in emulating or replicating again, it’s really fun. 

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4 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Part of what killed WHFB was people having attachments to armies and models they bought 20 years ago and wanting them to be balanced. Rather than actually buying new kits and following the development of the game. 

Ofc it sucks to just have an army be dumped, but the warning signs have been there since 2015. Four years later people have had time to get a new army. 

AoS is about deepkin, daughters, stormcast etc not high elves, dark elves and the empire. 

WHFB IS DEAD. 

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine.

Spire of Dawn was sold as an Age of Sigmar product. As you mention it yourself it is only 3 years old.  Yes, it is a rebox of Islands of Blood, but my wife wasnt suposed to know that. I wasnt suposed to know that, actually i didnt!

I started AoS specifically because it wasnt WHFB, was something new and was easier for us to grasp.  My models arent suposed to be invalid after 3 years, right? To me it sounds as weired as if the models of any SC were made invalid, because well, it was sold as AoS models! I bought AoS models expecting to play AoS and rulewise they are all over the place.

Dont get me wrong, if Tyrions Army catch my eyes, i will buy it.  I bought into DoK as i said. But it will be a great disapointment if my current AoS guys get tossed into the garbage.

 

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Regarding people commenting on proxys:

 

I am from Brazil and AoS here just started getting up and running(we now have an official gw representative bringing stuff over). Our small tournaments are all 4fun, people are super chill, TOs are great guys.

In less than an year we went from 8 guys in 750pts matchs to 20 in 1250 pts and growing. It is really great!

Painting isnt required, square bases are ok and if you forget about some rule, you can go back and use it. Sometimes your oponent will give you the heads up about it! We give prizes to the coolest opponent you fought, for example.

That said, proxys are allowed if it make sense. For isntance my "celestar" ballista is a High Elf Bolt Thrower.  I can use Sea Guard as Spearman for example. It would be ok, the Tos just ask you to tell your oponents and be on correct base size and it is alright.

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1 hour ago, Thiagoma said:

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine.

Spire of Dawn was sold as an Age of Sigmar product. As you mention it yourself it is only 3 years old.  Yes, it is a rebox of Islands of Blood, but my wife wasnt suposed to know that. I wasnt suposed to know that, actually i didnt!

I started AoS specifically because it wasnt WHFB, was something new and was easier for us to grasp.  My models arent suposed to be invalid after 3 years, right? To me it sounds as weired as if the models of any SC were made invalid, because well, it was sold as AoS models! I bought AoS models expecting to play AoS and rulewise they are all over the place.

Dont get me wrong, if Tyrions Army catch my eyes, i will buy it.  I bought into DoK as i said. But it will be a great disapointment if my current AoS guys get tossed into the garbage.

 

I doubt the contents of spire of dawn will be removed from matched play or anything like that. Yeah, the box was released in late 2010 BUT with the repack for AoS and the fact that all those sculpts were new at the time (going back to the cost of the design and moulds to make them, coupled with the fact that the cost of the set was a freaking steal), I think they still have some life in them (hell, khorne bloodletters were made in 2007 and still kicking).

If your problem with playing is a lack of battle line options (I think you mentioned that), then for the time being I suggest just getting some stormcast liberators for that role and wait it out. I really do think that we'll see tyrion's dudes soon after the slannesh release

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Pure guessing, but based on the armies tht have been released that combine with older models (ie. DoK), it's quite safe to say that plastic kits from 7th ed onwards will most likely not be removed (soon), or updated at worst. They often follow the "dual plastic kit" idea which seems to quite common, so in terms of business design it fits what AoS is doing (unlike metal/finecast or the early plastic kits). Also, even if fragmented factions, these kits are having regular rule updates in the GH.

Can see some of the factions combining with new light/shadow elves or maybe just keep them as side factions to support sales. But a direct squat in a short/medium term would be very surprising. And if they do, nothing like using newer rules for older models (example: HE archers as Glade Guard or SilverHelms as Dragon Princes. It's that simple, really).

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11 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Part of what killed WHFB was people having attachments to armies and models they bought 20 years ago and wanting them to be balanced. Rather than actually buying new kits and following the development of the game. 

What if a new player recently came in and chose, say, Darkling Covens from the online store?

He/she would have no context or evidence for that faction being older than any other, nor would he/she even know what a Dark Elf is.

At the moment, the web store presents Dispossessed at the same status as, say, Fyreslayers.

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29 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

What if a new player recently came in and chose, say, Darkling Covens from the online store?

He/she would have no context or evidence for that faction being older than any other, nor would he/she even know what a Dark Elf is.

At the moment, the web store presents Dispossessed at the same status as, say, Fyreslayers.

Darkling Covens and Dispossessed at least have faction rules unlike the High Elf stuff.

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23 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

My intention was really just vent and see if others are on the same boat/having the same felings as i am (so i wont suffer alone lol), and how do you think GW is gona handle the factions in the future.

 

You're not alone in that. I have free guild and can't run magic and guns. I had already invested in models to paint when i figured out that unless you run grand order alliance you are extremely limited in how you play. 

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When AoS was first starting out, they were trying to let people field basically whatever they wished to make cool armies and fight with, so they parted out a lot of armies into multiple sub-factions - probably because those sub-factions have rules that only affect their own keywords or whatever. I doubt they really intended to render a bunch of armies unplayable as a cohesive force, but with the way the game has developed that ends up being the case, especially for the old High and Dark Elf factions. The Wanderers still work really well as an all-elf faction, as they weren't split up excessively, but the other two are strangely fragmented.

That said, I'd be wary of buying Dark or High Elves right now,  especially their older models from when every army needed 'spearmen' and 'bowmen' and other rank-and-file, and that's basically not a thing in AoS. If you're going to invest in either faction, I'd be looking at the former Elite choices and centerpiece models, or anything with a really strong visual identity - Dark Elf piratey guys, for instance, or Dragon Princes. Avoid things like 'box of 20 dudes with normal weaponry', almost anything that's on a horse (because when you could roll out on a badass battle-beast like 80's cartoons, why would you bother to ride a normal horse?),  and anything without dynamic posing (the older models were designed to rank up so they all look like they are trying to squeeze into a subway during rush hour on a rainy day).

I'd be willing to wager that both ranges will see a good deal of revision, since a bunch of the simple infantry don't mesh aesthetically with AoS's visual vocabulary, which leans towards bigger, badder models or things with unique abilities or rules. 

I'm hoping that both factions see a book within a year or so, or at least get a nice update in the coming General's Handbook, to address their current shortcomings - GW clearly wants to keep them on the table being played, especially since many older players still have their armies, and with a bit of rules love they'll be just fine on the table. I just wouldn't buy into them if I'm starting out, is all.

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I hope GW don't end up squatting the rest of the older aelf line. I purchased the 'warriors of the great cities anvilgard' box set in the hope that the rumoured fish elves (at the time) would be expanding on the scourge privateers range, obviously turns out that the fish elves were idoneth deepkin, which is still find bizarre that they weren't somehow meshed with the privateers considering they both have an aquatic theme.

I guess I'll have to wait till GHB2019 to see if they finally decide to give the privateers some allegiance abilities which will at least show they may have some future after all. I am however a little apprehensive as I have no idea what direction GW could go with them, I can't see them being part of malerions coming aelves as they are more aquatic themed than shadow. At the same time though, why would GW bother bundling the privateers into a box set naming them warriors of the great cities and then later squat them, would be one heck of a retcon. 

 

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I've heard rumors that all the battletome lacking Order armies will be bundled into a "Free Cities" Battletome. Personally I really hate this idea as it kinda dilutes the character of whatever armies would be included in it. It also would be too similar to a Grand Alliance Order 2.0 book. It probably won't happen, but there are idiots on the internet pushing for it to happen. Personally, I think the layout of the webstore is more or less the finished look of the AoS factions going forward. I back this up the fact that GW had Warherd and Brayheard in a single army on the community Factions page along with Grots and Troggoths being included together on the page which latter corresponded to the Gloomspite release. As of right now, the three Battletome lacking armies in Order according to the layout are Free Peoples, Aelves, and Dispossessed. There are two possibilities I am seeing with this. Either we will get a combined Aelves battletome featuring abilities for playing specific kinds of Aelves, or they will be split up and distributed into the upcoming armies of light and shadow aelfs. The caution with the latter is that some models could be axed during the transition as we have recently seen with Gitmob Grots in the transition to Gloomspite.

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1 hour ago, Schulzy said:

I hope GW don't end up squatting the rest of the older aelf line. I purchased the 'warriors of the great cities anvilgard' box set in the hope that the rumoured fish elves (at the time) would be expanding on the scourge privateers range, obviously turns out that the fish elves were idoneth deepkin, which is still find bizarre that they weren't somehow meshed with the privateers considering they both have an aquatic theme.

I guess I'll have to wait till GHB2019 to see if they finally decide to give the privateers some allegiance abilities which will at least show they may have some future after all. I am however a little apprehensive as I have no idea what direction GW could go with them, I can't see them being part of malerions coming aelves as they are more aquatic themed than shadow. At the same time though, why would GW bother bundling the privateers into a box set naming them warriors of the great cities and then later squat them, would be one heck of a retcon. 

 

I wish they would loose the restrictions in battlelines for the great cities. You would be restricted to GA alliance only, but use for exemple Phoenix Guard as Battlelines for a Phoenicium army. As it stands, that set of rules is kinda wasted if the purpose was to give smaller factions some viability, considering all they do is give you a small perk and restrict your selection of units.

I would be a happy guy if i could do an army with Order zdraconis and Phoenix temple withou a wonky near useless battleline tax in the middle of it.

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4 minutes ago, Ironbreaker said:

I've heard rumors that all the battletome lacking Order armies will be bundled into a "Free Cities" Battletome. Personally I really hate this idea as it kinda dilutes the character of whatever armies would be included in it. It also would be too similar to a Grand Alliance Order 2.0 book. It probably won't happen, but there are idiots on the internet pushing for it to happen. Personally, I think the layout of the webstore is more or less the finished look of the AoS factions going forward. I back this up the fact that GW had Warherd and Brayheard in a single army on the community Factions page along with Grots and Troggoths being included together on the page which latter corresponded to the Gloomspite release. As of right now, the three Battletome lacking armies in Order according to the layout are Free Peoples, Aelves, and Dispossessed. There are two possibilities I am seeing with this. Either we will get a combined Aelves battletome featuring abilities for playing specific kinds of Aelves, or they will be split up and distributed into the upcoming armies of light and shadow aelfs. The caution with the latter is that some models could be axed during the transition as we have recently seen with Gitmob Grots in the transition to Gloomspite.

I see Reavers, high warden and seaguard beeing squashed, since they are SoD units and the sprue has mixed skaven pieces mixed up on it, but i would glady accepted if they give us a Battleline unit. Blademasters would be a cool choice imo.

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13 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

Spire of Dawn was sold as an Age of Sigmar product. As you mention it yourself it is only 3 years old.  Yes, it is a rebox of Islands of Blood, but my

 

6 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

What if a new player recently came in and chose, say, Darkling Covens from the online store?

He/she would have no context or evidence for that faction being older than any other, nor would he/she even know what a Dark Elf is.

At the moment, the web store presents Dispossessed at the same status as, say, Fyreslayers.

This is why I wish they would get rid. I too bought Spire of Dawn when I started AoS as I wanted an elf army. A few games against my friends stormcast later and I quickly realised that my army was a lot, lot weaker than his. 

New players go in and buy these older armies and then immediately get discouraged because they are no where close to the battletome armies on the tabletop. 

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15 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

Spire of Dawn was sold as an Age of Sigmar product. As you mention it yourself it is only 3 years old.  Yes, it is a rebox of Islands of Blood, but my wife wasnt suposed to know that. I wasnt suposed to know that, actually i didnt!

It should only be two years. The box came in December 2016.

I actually wonder if there was the plan to bring Swifthawk Agents and Eldritch Council together. I mean, they renamed the Seaguard from "the world that was" Spireguard and spire is another word for tower. And even in the AoS Background, the Eldritch Council is living in White Towers (also in case of living in a tower, the Skycutters are really making sense).

3 hours ago, Schulzy said:

I hope GW don't end up squatting the rest of the older aelf line. I purchased the 'warriors of the great cities anvilgard' box set in the hope that the rumoured fish elves (at the time) would be expanding on the scourge privateers range, obviously turns out that the fish elves were idoneth deepkin, which is still find bizarre that they weren't somehow meshed with the privateers considering they both have an aquatic theme.

Scourge Privateers are part of the background, with the Callis & Toll Stories, having Arika Zenthe and her crew as well an her own sequel shortstory Heart of Winter (taking place on a Black Arc, where Scourge Privateers are living and working together with Daughters of Khaine and Darkling Covens)

1 hour ago, JPjr said:

There seem to be a surprising amount of people here building up 6K armies, especially of ‘older’ ranges. That’s a lot of eggs in one basket. 

I don't know if my Brotherhood of Korhil aka Lion Rangers will reach 6k points (perhaps with battalions at some time), at the moment I have 4,4k build without battalions and 910 Points more to build investing about 1.500,-€ in about three quarters of a year and about 9 months of time to create my fanmade battletome), bringing them into the 5k club. (counting up all my aelf Projects, where still most things I have to paint I'm in the range of 14k to 15k Points).

And I really think, that this army really doesn't have a the WHFB esthetic anymore, instead it has become an own culture (this army wouldn't have been possible to build if the Lion Rangers would have been ditched). Most of the stuff that some other simply want to get rid of, only needs a little rework. In fact there are two stories where a member of the Lion Rangers are part of. Kuva in Hammerhal and Thystra in Red Hours.

In the end, I wouldn't see the aelfs as an max competitive faction, more different cultures/cults/brotherhoods to be creative and populate the mortal realms and really would like to see them getting more fleshed out instead of being ditched.

6 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

It seen dark elfs were not as shattered as High ones. It is a tad easier for those players to field an army.

They are as scattered, after both races where split into 5 subfactions each. The diffence is that in case of the highborn nearly all coreunits where removed with the Grand Alliance Book (Spireguard were brought back nearly a year later with Spire of Dawn and a new Warscroll, but only as a Battleline if, as well as Reavers) only having there special units, and losing the Sisters of the Watch to Wanderers. Where in case of the old Dark Elves, the entire core stayed, mostly because those models were new released in 8. Edition WHFB.

Edited by EMMachine
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11 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

What if a new player recently came in and chose, say, Darkling Covens from the online store?

He/she would have no context or evidence for that faction being older than any other, nor would he/she even know what a Dark Elf is.

At the moment, the web store presents Dispossessed at the same status as, say, Fyreslayers.

But that raises an interesting question as to why they chose them. 

If they just chose them on sight then that’s nearly almost certainly because they liked the models. If they decided they liked them sufficiently to buy them there and then without research as to how they play or even without seeing if they could be bought elsewhere, they have decided to buy models because they liked models and agreed with the asking price.

GW have never claimed that you buy models with the guarantee that they will always be compatible with rulesets indefinitely or that they will play well etc. You’re paying for the product of toy soldiers, exclusively, not toy soldiers and game pieces. At least these days you can buy models and use a free app and Warscroll to play with them. In the past you bought a box of models and you had to pay if you wanted to have access to rules of the game and rules of the model.

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There is no guarantee, but there is an expectation that GW sell stuff that will - you know - last. Most armies do in fact last a long while. Squatting is famous but its actually (until AoS launched) super rare to occur. More likely is that individual models or niche groups of models are retired. For example specialist Imperial Guard variations have appeared and retired over the years - however most are generic enough that they can count-as a regular IG army without any issues. 

Squatting is always the great fear - it happened once and was a fear story for years that Necron, Dark Eldar and other faction players have feared would happen. 

 

Also in your example Darkling Covens (until christmas) had a specific product page, they have lore, they have a dedicate section of pages in the Generals Handbook. They are a functional usable army and if GW's plan is to retire them fully then most would assume GW would do it now rather than waiting for a random point in the future. 

 

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1 minute ago, xking said:

Whatever happens, some people need to understand. That there are no High Elves or dark elves. Whatever GW decides to do with those old models, they will not be the exact same thing they were in the old world. 

While I truly believe the Empire stuff will go away, I don't think the elf stuff will. 

Honestly I think most people are on board with that considering that Wood Elves are split in half at least and Dark Elves already have Daughters of Khaine split off into their own faction. The real debate is on if GW will link up the old armies together; if they'll cross them over; if they'll expand them into their own sub army or if they'll retire the models entirely. There's loads of potential things GW could do and we just don't know that's where all the frustration comes in for most gamers. 

 

Those who own models don't know if they want to sell them on or expand; those on the fence of joining into AoS are waiting and waiting for the army they think they want to form to see if it's going to exist or not; those who have a bit of a start in those forces are waiting to see if their investment lasts and if things change - no sense buying a full 2K Worth of Dark Riders if GW decides that Shadowblades are going to be retired/rolled into another army etc...

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