Cycle of the Storm and Bloodtithe point

[Sigmarusvult]

Hey guys,

I had a game with my stormcasts against my friend's khorne army where his bloodletters managed to kill all my sequistors but I did deny  the final wound  to allocate with the Cycle of the Storm ability from the lord arcanum, leaving one sequistor alive. My friend claimed that he should still get a bloodtithe point because the unit was technily slained if we look at the  wording in Cycle of the storm ability: 

Quote

"once per turn, when a friendly Stormcast Eternal model is slain within 18", instead of removing the slain model, you can heal 1 wound allocated to it..."

It  implies that the model is considered slain before being prevented to be removed so  I conceded and let him have the bloodtithe point because the last sequistor of the unit was indeed slain by the last wound (and thus the unit before the Cycle of the Storm ability takes effect. 

However I have read the designers'commentary where it says: 

Quote

 Q: If I use the Lord-Arcanum’s Cycle of the Storm to heal a wound on a model instead of slaying it, what happens to any wounds that remain to be allocated? A: Continue to allocate them as normal. Cycle of the Storm will not always stop a model from being slain, but will require an extra wound to be inflicted in order to do so.

It implies that a model could stop from being slain, which means that in the previous situation the  bloodtithe point should not have been counted as the model was prevented to be considered slain (and as such the unit) but simply ignore the last wound to be allocated.

It seems to me there are two different vision of Cycle of the Storm out there at the moment but I don't know which one should be considered. 

What do you guys think ? What would you have done  in my situation ? 

 

 

[King Taloren]

Cycle of the storm has a very unique phrasing that makes it a bit difficult to grasp what it completely does. 

Essintially the question comes down to, did you have any more wounds to allocate after Cycle of the storm was used?

Cycle of the storm will only stop a model from being slain if it has no other wounds to be allocated to the unit. It must be an exact number of wound without overkill. (Which makes it sometimes useful in absorbing one extra wound on a unit so that another model might survive uninjured.

Bloodtithe points only work if the unit is destroyed and completely removed from the table so if that one model was not slain there is no bloodtithe point to be given because Cycle of the Storm states that instead of being slain it stays on the table with one wound remaining. But again it doesn’t save the model if there are still wounds left to be allocated.

[Sigmarusvult]

@King Taloren Thank you for your reply, apologies if it was not clear enough but no, there was no more wound to allocate to the unit, his bloodletters did the exact amount of wound required  to kill all the models, there was no overkill. 

So If I follow you the Sequitor should not have been considered as slain at any moment  but it would have simply  ignore the last wound  I had to allocate (which  would have technicly kill but not overkill him)Therefore he should not have gained a bloodtithe point in this situation.

Could you specify where it says Bloodtithe points only work if the unit is destroyed and completely removed from the table, I have a khorne army myself and the only thing it says in the battleotme is that you get a bloodtithe point when a unit is wiped out yet it does not say what wiped out means exactly (slain or slain and remove) sorry for insisting on wordings but my local group is quite competitive. 

[Isotop]

22 hours ago, Sigmarusvult said:

@King Taloren Thank you for your reply, apologies if it was not clear enough but no, there was no more wound to allocate to the unit, his bloodletters did the exact amount of wound required  to kill all the models, there was no overkill. 

So If I follow you the Sequitor should not have been considered as slain at any moment  but it would have simply  ignore the last wound  I had to allocate (which  would have technicly kill but not overkill him)Therefore he should not have gained a bloodtithe point in this situation.

Could you specify where it says Bloodtithe points only work if the unit is destroyed and completely removed from the table, I have a khorne army myself and the only thing it says in the battleotme is that you get a bloodtithe point when a unit is wiped out yet it does not say what wiped out means exactly (slain or slain and remove) sorry for insisting on wordings but my local group is quite competitive. 

Hi mate. @King Taloren will not be able to give you a clear answer to your question, since the wording of Blood Tithe points simply does not tell us what wiped out means. If I had to guess I would say that he will give you some RAI based "explanations". Which is fine. But I get the feeling you want some clear resolution to your problem.

Cycle of the Storm and the FAQ on it do not match up in the first place. Due to Cycle of the Storm, the model saved by it is still slain - it simply is not removed from the table (which otherwise is the standard procedure when a model is slain) but instead is healed one wound. The FAQ then speaks about "Cycle of the Storm will not always stop a model from being slain" - which sounds like GW did not remember their own rule´s wording in the first place. I realize you allready debunked this internal confusion - I just wanted to tell you that you are absolutely right about it. 

You are trying to tackle the interaction of to mechanics that are both afflicted with their own unclear or plain incoherent wording. In my opinion there is no possible way to resolve this topic on a RAW basis until we get some additional FAQs on the topic(s). Until then, you will have to make some agreements with your gaming buddies. 

[Mayple]

raw aside, the blood tithe is built around units getting destroyed. Therefore if in doubt about raw, you can fairly easily use rai and do a; "is the unit destroyed? I.E: no longer in play, if yes, blood tithe point. If no, no blood tithe points.

Doing it any other way falls into the slippery slope of technicalities. If the unit is never removed, there are no blood points to gain. 

[Sigmarusvult]

@Isotop Thank you for your answer, I am glad to hear that I am not the only who find the wording incoherent and I appreciate your insight on this matter. I am  surprised that gw still have not updated the wording (correctly) of both mechanics as they are quite important and I imagine they can be the subject of heated discussion, especially in tournament. Hopefully the next  FAQ will fix it, until then we ll have to pre-agree as you said.