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El Syf

Death Wishlisting

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So we will probably be waiting a very long time for any more releases but there’s no harm in thinking about what we’d like...

Morghasts: another type with a shooting attack ala kurnoth hunters, a giant hero morghast in case you don’t want named character general in a deathlord lists. As a side note I really feel a lot more could be done with morghasts.

Some dedicated ranged units in general, skeleton archers coming back would be great personally as I’ve got about 50 of them :(

New zombies!? I hate zombies and never field them myself but the kit they have dates back to 6th ed wfb if not older? 

Flesh eater courts may be getting some attention this year as the new model is a abhorrent archregent not ghoul king. 

Soulblight tome with plastic blood knights and new vampiric units. 

For the lolz: Abhorash!

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Not quite sure if reasonable shooting won’t be too much... think about 6 kurnoth hiding behind 40 skellis.

but if deathwalkers becomes a thing again, the good old Skull catapult or some other mad necromancer machine might come up. 

And of course the state of Soulblight is pretty sad indeed. Especially with only one battleline that costs a kidney...

 

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7 hours ago, El Syf said:

Some dedicated ranged units in general, skeleton archers coming back would be great personally as I’ve got about 50 of them :(

Would absolutely love to see skeleton archers make a comeback. 

I'll add to this a decent mounted wight king. The one they have is woeful. 

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3 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Would absolutely love to see skeleton archers make a comeback. 

I'll add to this a decent mounted wight king. The one they have is woeful. 

I honestly thought they’d discontinued the mounted eight king model, you’re right that along with the bats are probably the most dated models in the range. 

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I hope the whole FEC summoning ability will be new. I my eyes the Courtiers are just good to sit back and summon back your units. no buffs, no aura or something. Fighting in Melee isn't that good, because you won't let them die.

Courtiers should fight in the front and give other boni, just like giving Rend to horrors or buffing flayer screams with additional -bravery. 

Maybe soe new Command abilities. Not just the o current one, you can use only one time in the whole game.

 

Last week i thought about a Cairn Wraith on a ghost dragon. Nighthaunt just got one big model (black Coach) and a couple of small heroes. Ghost Dragon could be the Zombiedragon with ethereal, no selfhealing and fraightful touch.

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Soulblight faction:

An elite Death faction (I'm so sick of the "Death must be a horde" mentality). 

New plastic blood-knights. 

Expanded bloodlines as sub-factions

Not aligned with Nagash, nor against him but rather doing their own thing. 

Vampire infantry

New Fell-bat and Bat swarm kits

Vargheists as battleline

Some form of Vampire Thralls unit - humans in the service of vampires

Vampire Regent hero, an extremely killy hero as a nice callback to blender vampire lords of 8th.

Abhorash, Vlad and Isabella as 3 named hero units

 

This would make my favourite faction easily. I really liked Vampire Counts in 8th and the Soulblight faction in LoN doesn't do them justice I feel. Vampires were always the highlight of Undead for me and I think currently they're a bit all over the place, with some of their iconic units like the Black Coach and Varghulf traded off to other factions. 

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I'd also vote for Skeleton Archers (or alternatively take a note from Warcraft and have 'mages')!

And again I'd echo soulblight, they don't need a lot, but here are some ideas;

- Infantry unit of thralls that start very weak but get faster, stronger and more resilient as blood is spilled near them

- Leave Big bats to die (vargheists exist), swarms would be unique however to get new models.

- Hero archetype for each bloodline that determines the armies rules. Coven throne would be Lahmian, VLoZD would be Blood Dragons, new foot/mounted vamps could be Von Carstein/ Lords of Night (maybe bat rider), more wizardy one for necro and strigoi is kinda covered by FEC now but a super Vargheist would be baller.

- Terrain piece that maybe heals vampires through blood sacrifice/ revives certain heroes. Perhaps a giant sarcophagus!

- Vampire endless spells... Yes please. Bats. Fangs. Beguiling visions.

OH and no Mortarchs in the list. They have their legions but soulblight can represent other vampires of prominence not directly under their control.

Edited by Charlo

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Krell, the Mortarch of Despair,  mounted on a new huge skeletal creature with a proper warscroll for an AoS Mortarch.    /or

A Wight King rider addon for the plastic Zombie Dragon, could be made by forgeworld perhaps, though i would love to see GW selling upgrade/conversion sprues again. 

More skeletal constructs with the "Reanimant" keyword following the theme of Morghasts, along with a hero that would unlock them as battleline besides Nagash.

A huge "final form boss" hero for Flesh-eater Courts, perhaps something that looks like a combination of a Varghulf and the new Abhorrent Archregent from Carrion Empire. This could be a plastic kit with multiple options to create either a monstrosity for a Ghoul hero, a Vampire hero or a new Varghulf model similar to how the current box for Crypt Horrors, Flayers and Vargheists works.

Vampires

 

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Bring back tomb kings.

Also expand death rattle. I want to see them work like an actual army.

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Pie in the sky wishlisting?  A variety of death battletomes & model ranges including:

Nighthaunt book/range - I'm pretty happy w/ this as it is

Updated FEC book w/ proper allegiance rules, plastic varghulf, maybe some new stuff, possibly named heroes?  This actually looks rather likely this year.

Soulblight book including expanded bloodline rules, new plastic vat, vamp, and blood knight models, new mortal shyish blood donor/cultist type units to fill out numbers and give us an in game taste of living shyish culture.  Maybe even some halflings (both mortal and vampyric) as a nod to the halflings survivors in sylvania when the end times hit.

Deathrattle book incorporating ideas from the old tomb kings army, in particular the return of skeletal archers, chariots, catapults, bone giants, & lich spellcasters, all w/ new models.  This faction led by Khalida as Mortarch of Dust, revived by Nagash to lead his skeletal legions since arkhan is busy w more important secret missions, neferata has been acting up  since the resurgent vampire activity that came w the hypothetical previous soulblight book, so nagash decides to bring back a rival to distract her/keep her in line.

Deathwalker/mages book as combined faction with zombies (w/ new models), dire wolves, necromancers, corpse carts, mortis engines (as a spellcasting hero), unridden zombie dragons and terrorgheists, plus a new range of chimeric, frankensteinish, stitched-together, experimental necromantic monstrosities (monstrous infantry, monsters, etc) to help bridge the conceptual gap between zombies and necromancers.  Maybe a return/reimagining of of the tomb kings' casket of souls.  Narratively whatever rituals arkhan had been busy with would come up here.

Deathlords book, this coming after all the others listed above, and replacing the current legions of nagash book.  Includes a stand alone hyper-elite deathlords army - nagash, mortarchs, morghasts, including new morghast hero and a small range of maybe wingless, slightly shorter but still distinctly on the 'monstrous infantry' size category morghasts (maybe two dual kits, one 5-10 model infantry box and one 2-3 model cavalry box), with the heavy implication that these new morghasts are made from stolen stormcast souls.  This book would also include a range of legion allegiance rulesets replacing the current legions, which would function as alternatives to the generic death allegiance rules, allowing for mixing of any death units from any of the other books in the mortarchs personal warhosts.

Edited by Sception
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On 1/15/2019 at 4:50 AM, Sception said:

Deathwalker/mages book as combined faction with zombies (w/ new models), dire wolves, necromancers, corpse carts, mortis engines (as a spellcasting hero), unridden zombie dragons and terrorgheists, plus a new range of chimeric, frankensteinish, stitched-together, experimental necromantic monstrosities (monstrous infantry, monsters, etc) to help bridge the conceptual gap between zombies and necromancers.  Maybe a return/reimagining of of the tomb kings' casket of souls.  Narratively whatever rituals arkhan had been busy with would come up here.

This would be fantastic! 

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In terms of more concrete, short term wishlisting, significant points adjustments across the board for the legions:

  • Nagash 900 (+100)
  • Mannfred 380 (-40)
  • Neferata 360 (-40)
  • Bloodseeker Palanquin 260 (-60)
  • Necromancer 140 (+30)
  • Wight King 100 (-20)
  • Skeletons 80/300 (+20 at max size)
  • Blood Knights 200 (-60)
  • Grave Guard unit size 10-30, points cost 120/320 (batch size -> box size, -40/-100)
  • Dire Wolves 80/420 (+20/+100)
  • Hexwraiths 140 (-20)
  • Morghasts 200 (-20)
  • Vargheists 140 (-20)
  • Zombies 50/280 (-10/-40)
  • Castellans of the Crimson Keep: 100 (-50)
  • Court of Nulahmia: 80 (-30)
  • Deathmarch 120 (-40)
  • Lords of Sacrament 80 (-50)
  • Nightfall Pack 100 (-70)
  • First Cohort 120 (-40)

Additionally:

  • Removal of Legion Black Coach as a unit, just have the legions and the nighthaunts use the same black coach scroll
  • Limit the Errata that added Nighthaunt starter box units to Legions to Narrative & Open Play games (they'd still be available as allies in matched play)
  • Gamewide addition of new 'Rule of One' limiting all command abilities apart from those in the core rules to 1/player turn,  nerfing a lot of things, but mostly endless legions.  Ie, you can use inspiring presence as often as you have command points for, but undless legions is only once per turn.

Granted, I think these changes would pretty dramatically hurt the competitive viability of legions, but if anything the legions have been somewhat overrepresented on the tournament scene, and particular bits like nagash and endless legions, while you can argue about how balanced they are or aren't, just create bad play experiences for opponents that should be avoided, even if doing so comes at the cost of a nerf to the legions' current competitive viability.  I mean, long term I would phase out 'legions of nagash' as a discrete faction entirely, as per my previous post, instead making the legions a set of alternative traits for grand alliance death in general.  Honestly, 1/turn might not be enough of a nerf for endless legions, it might have to get specifically limited to once per game.  Long term I would make gravesites and endless legions type unit restoration a gimmick specific to the deathmages/deadwalkers faction (ie, the faction most focused on themes of magic, recursion, and hordes of individually weak fodder), and shift overall death/legion allegiance recursions to a different & significantly less extreme model as a tradeoff for having access to such a wide variety of units.

In the mean time I think the above changes would do a lot to diversify what death lists are still played, with nighthaunt actually being able to make the best use of grimghasts and chainrasps for once, allowing units like blood knights and grave guard to maybe see some play after getting hefty points reductions.  Increase to dire wolves in particular, especially after removal of nighthaunt units, puts a bit more of a premium on speed in an army that's supposed to be a bit slower, and makes gravesite deployment a more significant trick in the toolbox.  That's also the reason that I wouldn't personally reduce the price of black knights at this time - yeah they're overpriced if you're looking at the game in general, but they still do something significant within the confines of this particular faction, especially if dire wolves go up in price.

Edited by Sception
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Besides expanding on older factions, I'd just love to see a bunch of new stuff. With Death you could probably create a lot of new armies just by putting them in different realms. Fiery Aqshy undead with ash zombies and molten monstrosities, savage Ghur undead with a bunch of big, reanimated beasts, frankenstein-y or metal-y undead from Chamon, evil fungus-stuff that plagues Ghyran. I'm sure you could even come up with something cool for the realms of heaven (non-evil/spooky Death?) and light (vast plains, geometric structures and religious orderliness... hmm, I wonder what that could be).

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I've seen a lot of suggestions for soulblight armies but i'd like to see a soulblight army that is distinctly separate from aristocratic style of vampire we see in the legions (so avoiding the traditional bloodlines) and instead introducing bloodlines formed in and shaped by the mortal realms. The books and battletome mention several tribes and cults of vampires with distinct themes like barbaric vampires that glorify becoming a vargheist. It would be cool to see rules and sub allegiances that represent a more flavourful spread of vampires from the mortal realms now that we aren't bound by the old VC style (tho i would admittedly be the first to pre order a model for a returned vlad or isabella) For example the vargheist loving vamps could be a bloodline that gets vargheists as battleline and have a beefed up vargheist hero option or character, there rules would likely be built around making more vargheists out of some sort of weaker fodder vampires and have an aggressive playstyle. How about a Vampire bloodline from chamon that has a gothic crusader aesthetic? Maybe they fuse metal into their flesh since being superhuman that ****** wouldn't outright kill them, they could have rules for better armour saves or ignoring rend -1. How about ash vampires from aqshy? They could be themed around the use of ash clouds for mobility and stealth and maybe be able to burn there own units to produce more ash or get buffs. How about a bloodline from ghur that practices bonding with beasts and granting their mounts and companions the bloodkiss? All these themes do admittedly create a very mixed bag of a faction so maybe have several common units and a few hero models unique to each bloodline, then consolidate it as some sort of nomadic army or fleet of vampires and their thralls that travel the realms doing nagash (or perhaps some greater vampire or lesser death gods) bidding? This way you could have elements of fan favourites like the vampire coast with ghost ships and a naval theme with allegiance rules built around maybe having a ghost ship model on the board similar to the herd stone or graveyards that you could deploy units from or use as a transport or have shoot enemies with a command ability? Then each bloodline would add smaller flavour rules like the legions sub allegiances that would apply to the vampire units in the army. 

 

Just the ramblings of a guy with a hard on for a better vampire army, got thinking about these ideas while making a warband for a path to glory campaign. (My warband will be themed as the revenge of vlad von carstein and features the man himself as my champion)

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Come on Death got so much love in 2018 with new LoN battleome,huge Nighthaunt release, Nightvault band and there are FEC goodies coming soon. 

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Wishlisting for death... new Bloodknights and some kind of vampire Infantry.

And I agree with @Sception

Edited by JackStreicher

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From a directional perspective, the Soul Wars book (in fact all of Josh Reynold's books featuring death) introduced a few interesting themes and hierarchies that fit in line with the Legions of Nagash layout.

The hierarchy of spirit, bone and then meat  (with soulblight strangely missing) was an inviolate structure that gives death order. This has been provided via Nighthaunt and Legions of Nagash. As much as it would be nice to see additional Deadwalker and Deathrattle characters and units, it most likely won't happen in the short term.

A Soulblight Faction is plausible, based on the premise that if done properly it will sell. One could also argue that Soulblight could be introduced as part of the Soul Wars story arc, but thats grasping at straws: we had nighthaunt recently, soul blight was included in legions of Nagash and we have two aelf factions as well as slaanesh that we know are coming first. Definitely not a short term prospect.

Eventually, if the ranges do get reviewed and the decision that Legions of Nagash is too large and needs to be divided, I would like to see expanded deathrattle and deadwalker armies with their own unique character once more as fantasy (in its fantasy-historical genre copying manner) did previously. I think that would be very flavourful for death and give AoS its own appeal of death beyond copies of the old-but-reliable hollywood and classical stereotypes.

Just my opinion though.

Edited by Malios

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GW doesnt base game stuff on the novels, and the 'hierarchy' business is directly contradicted by published game book fluff, so i wouldnt put too much stock in it.

As for what we're likely to see, what we *expect* to see, well that's a different topic entirely from wishlisting.  What I *expect* to see is a revised and (finger's crossed) expanded FEC faction later this year, then LoN nerfed into the ground in GH19, with Nighthaunts being cut down in the crossfire (rather than just removing grimghasts & chainrasps from LoN, I expect they'll just get a sky high points costs that will kill their viability in both legion and nighthaunt lists), and then literally nothing else in terms of significant developments for death until 2021.

But then again, I've always been the pessimistic sort, so we'll see.  I've been wrong before.

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3 hours ago, Sception said:

What I *expect* to see is a revised and (finger's crossed) expanded FEC faction later this year, then LoN nerfed into the ground in GH19, with Nighthaunts being cut down in the crossfire

Now playing Metallica - Sad but true...

 

FEC: I kinda like the ghb18 rules, with pretty strong summoning and a very aggressive playstyle. hope they don’t ruin it. Let’s see what the Arch-Regent brings, plastic varghulfs would be royal... 

LoN: not quite sure if it really will be such a beat down. But I guess it depends if one of the devs gets crushed, we‘re done for XD

in my local meta everybody knows kinda how to combat death (maybe I’m just not really good) and although the fear of Nagash is there, as should be, a quick „what will your 350-wrath-of-khorne do to him in cc“ calms most of the nerves. The details are talked about by ianob, if they have ranged weapons they target my heroes and all the basics. I always think that nurgle has far more cheese than we do...

the chainrasps thing would be easy to solve without kicking NH (who are kinda down anyway) increase the price crosswise. They have a separate entry in LoN, make it 80-100/10 and donesos...

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I know they want to step away from characters a bit with AoS, but I would like to see more factions get characters and some fan favourites to make it to the table again. FEC doesn't need much but it would be cool to see them get ushoran as a character hero. I would likewise like to see abhorash or one of the von carsteins for soulblight.

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I understand the idea that Chainrasps and Grims will get a point increase... but it seems to me more of a side effect of the other death options being weak that causes us to see nothing but Grims in top lists.  If they were to 'buff' grave guard, that could easily change the unit selection we see there.

Likewise, if it is the 'bring back a whole unit' part that makes them OP, then only LoN would need some modifications.

I don't play at top tables, but most people are aware that the top tables in the hobby have a 'meta' all their own.  Down here in the regular man's trenches everyone I know who had picked up Nighthaunt with the release of Soul Wars has long since forsaken Nagash's Will.   Many tried to swap over to LoN, but all eventually sold their Death and went back to Chaos or Order.  I think a couple jumped on the Orruk/Gloomspite trains.

I am the only Death player in my local area that I know of, and while I will hear complaints from time to time using the online rankings as sources that Death is OP, those complaints only pop up when an opponent loses a game.  In my opinion, the way Death overall 'plays' is interesting, fun, and varied... it is unit selection that stagnates mainly because a lot of our units fall into the 'not so great' grab bag of options no one will take.

People mention zombies multiple times here.  No one in their right mind even considers filling their BL with zombies.  Their profile is not THAT terrible, and with enough buffs they can be lethal.  The problem is, for their points pretty much everything outclasses them.  I think the 'death problem' can be solved with some serious points adjustments, and I do not think Nighthaunt units really need any increases.  If it truly was just a Grimghast Problem... then we would see Nighthaunt -somewhere- in the leaderboards, especially when we spooks can take the Grims as our battleline.

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22 minutes ago, Nevar said:

but it seems to me more of a side effect of the other death options being weak that causes us to see nothing but Grims in top lists.

The constant reroll you get for „5 or more models“ is the issue. 5 or more usually means always. Pair that with 2 attacks/model and a 2“ reach plus their mobility and you start to see why they‘re so good.

they should change the rerolls to „more than 10“ or the weaponrange to 1“

 

 

I like death as a faction as well though I haven‘t played them in quite a while 🤔 time to bring them to the field once more

Edited by JackStreicher

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