Breaking Down the Stardrake and Why it's Bad.

[Black Blade]

Thanks to everyone who participated here. I've learned a lot in this thread and will try to use my Drake effectively ( I paid enough for her). I think some people were hitting on my issue though unkillable is ok but when it cant do enough damage back and is negated on obj by 2 grots... it doesnt feel fun or right to me. That being said, a lot of you have made me feel more positive about the model... so... thank you! I'm sorry I couldnt quote you all directly I'm in the states and this forum just passes me by in the night!

[Mark Williams]

To be fair, losing an objective to 2 grots is a chronic issue with the entire SCE army, and not a “Stardrake specific issue.”

I’ve been losing games with SCE all year due to a lack of model count, as compared to basically every other army.

SCE in general wins most games by tabling their opponents. If you can’t make a force capable of doing that, there are many armies that will simply wear you down and spend the game avoiding combat and just sitting outside of 3” on objectives. This problem isn’t unique to SCE, nor am I saying it isn’t fair or balanced. I’m only saying it’s a common thread across the entire army and one of their main weaknesses. 

[Black Blade]

4 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

To be fair, losing an objective to 2 grots is a chronic issue with the entire SCE army, and not a “Stardrake specific issue.”

I’ve been losing games with SCE all year due to a lack of model count, as compared to basically every other army.

SCE in general wins most games by tabling their opponents. If you can’t make a force capable of doing that, there are many armies that will simply wear you down and spend the game avoiding combat and just sitting outside of 3” on objectives. This problem isn’t unique to SCE, nor am I saying it isn’t fair or balanced. I’m only saying it’s a common thread across the entire army and one of their main weaknesses. 

I agree with all of this. Singling out the Stardrake though because I think the problem is the most extreme with the Stardrake in terms of a margin. Idk maybe Liberators but they still have bodies.

[HollowHills]

I honestly don't think there are many hero units that are actually taken to deal a lot of damage. If you look at the mawcrusha an equivalent amount of points spent on a horde of ard boys would probably do more damage. For deepkin why would I take a leviadon when I can get two units of morsarr for less? A block of witch aelves and a hag queen will always beat morathi in terms of damage output. 

Heroes, regardless of stature, are pretty much only useful in so far as they are a force multiplier. Aos atm is mostly a game of who can alphastrike their death blob first. 

I'm not saying you don't have a point about the stardrake, but I think most similar models have the same issue. 

[Black Blade]

56 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I honestly don't think there are many hero units that are actually taken to deal a lot of damage. If you look at the mawcrusha an equivalent amount of points spent on a horde of ard boys would probably do more damage. For deepkin why would I take a leviadon when I can get two units of morsarr for less? A block of witch aelves and a hag queen will always beat morathi in terms of damage output. 

Heroes, regardless of stature, are pretty much only useful in so far as they are a force multiplier. Aos atm is mostly a game of who can alphastrike their death blob first. 

I'm not saying you don't have a point about the stardrake, but I think most similar models have the same issue. 

A fair point. To clarify my position into something a bit more agreeable perhaps: i wouldn't want him doing the work of 3 units of Evocators. However if the drakes claws became rend 2 and his tail did d3 MW on 2+ rather than having to check vs model count I would be satisfied. I dont think that would be excessive imho. 

[schwabbele]

21 hours ago, Vextol said:

Whose charging?  Because if it's the stardrake, you just lost staunch defender 😆

As long as I can keep the Castellant buff up I wouldn't worry too much. If an oppurtunity opens up where I can bind a crucial enemy unit(s) with such a move I would always do it. You would loose staunch only for the drake, but could apply the buff to your units which could need it more.

[rokapoke]

4 hours ago, Black Blade said:

A fair point. To clarify my position into something a bit more agreeable perhaps: i wouldn't want him doing the work of 3 units of Evocators. However if the drakes claws became rend 2 and his tail did d3 MW on 2+ rather than having to check vs model count I would be satisfied. I dont think that would be excessive imho. 

The problem with making the Stardrake an offensive juggernaut is the fact that he's already nigh-unkillable in certain circumstances. I'd like to think that GW will never make a unit that is such an auto-include in any army.

[Mikosan]

1 hour ago, rokapoke said:

The problem with making the Stardrake an offensive juggernaut is the fact that he's already nigh-unkillable in certain circumstances. I'd like to think that GW will never make a unit that is such an auto-include in any army.

Eh, I'm not so sure the suggested -2 rend on claws and changing the tail attack to a regular roll instead of depending on model count makes him an offensive juggernaut.    I think the defensive capabilities he brings to the table aren't winning games while also being frustrating to play against for some lists.  Heck he can be frustrating to play with even when looking across the table at 3 GUO's, or 60 blood letters, or MW bomb blood thirsters, etc...

Still, brings up a good point about offense vs. defense and the balancing of a units potential

[HollowHills]

Warscroll rewrites tend to happen only when an army gets a new battletome or a core rule for an army changes (such as when summoning was added to several aos 1 factions). Realistically balance is only going to come from points. 

Unfortunately, it seems very tricky for GW to balance units without them being something you never pick or an autoinclude. If you reduce the stardrake significantly then he suddenly becomes amazing for his points. Reduce him by a little and the difference is too insignificant to warrant an inclusion. 

In a casual game, by which I mean one where both opponents are attempting to win and have made an effort with their lists but are not tournament level, the drake is fine. Being able to do mortal wounds across the whole table is great, as is having a very high save and the ability to instantly kill models. You have the chance to kill 160 points of my morsarr by just rolling 3 5 ups for example. 

As someone else said the fact that you can lose an objective held by a stardrake to 2 grots is probably the biggest issue. It's a part of the game I hope they look into changing or at least add some new scenarios with different win conditions.

 

[Vextol]

34 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

Eh, I'm not so sure the suggested -2 rend on claws and changing the tail attack to a regular roll instead of depending on model count makes him an offensive juggernaut.    I think the defensive capabilities he brings to the table aren't winning games while also being frustrating to play against for some lists.  Heck he can be frustrating to play with even when looking across the table at 3 GUO's, or 60 blood letters, or MW bomb blood thirsters, etc...

Still, brings up a good point about offense vs. defense and the balancing of a units potential

I've found that "defense" is what wins game most times for me.  I think, in general, most units are incredibly underpowered offensively.  Specifically melee units.

It just seems so much easier to make a unit hard to kill than it is to hit hard.  I mean honestly, how many normal infantry blocks hit for more than 1 damage or have more than 1 rend?  If you find examples, do they have 1 wound each?  Is their armor horrible?  There isn't much affordable glass cannon melee power out there which is what would counter a stardrake without having to do a million mortal wounds or cost 1000 points.

It's why the stardrake is frustrating/good.  He's not "unkillable", there just isn't anything even remotely normal that can kill him 😂

[Nos]

18 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

The real problem with the drake is that he’s so many points and you can do much better things with those points. Unkillable or not, you could have had nearly 19 evocators instead (apologies if my math is slightly off but you get the point)

And while he may do damage, he’s one guy. So for multiple turns while he is mulching through a unit, your opponent is sitting on the objective and scoring by having literally 2+ models there.

Can Evocators fly and move 12+ inches a turn 

Can they stop pile-ins within 3 inches

Can Evocators give an effective 2+ swing to you in the magic phase

Can you reliably heal Evocators 4+ wounds a turn with a Lord Arcanum and Priest and Castellant 

Can they inflict a MW on a +4 armour save

 Can they survive 98% of regular attacks etc

Obviously Evocators can also do stuff Stardrakes can’t do as well. They’re just different is the point. Both represent good value when properly synergised. Neither is likely to accomplish as much as they should for their value if not. Last night I had two units of 5 Evicators and 5 Sequitors get stuck because of Wyldwoods. They were worth literally nothing because I misused them. 

1 hour ago, Vextol said:

I've found that "defense" is what wins game most times for me.  I think, in general, most units are incredibly underpowered offensively.  Specifically melee units.

It just seems so much easier to make a unit hard to kill than it is to hit hard.  I mean honestly, how many normal infantry blocks hit for more than 1 damage or have more than 1 rend?  If you find examples, do they have 1 wound each?  Is their armor horrible?  There isn't much affordable glass cannon melee power out there which is what would counter a stardrake without having to do a million mortal wounds or cost 1000 points.

It's why the stardrake is frustrating/good.  He's not "unkillable", there just isn't anything even remotely normal that can kill him 😂

Witch Elves, Blight Kings, Sequitors, Grimghast Reapers, Chainrasp, any unit with spears and 20+ models,  Dryads, Ardboyz, Daemonettes, Reavers, Fyreslayers 

There’s  few battleline that can’t throw out stupid attacks with fairly elemental buffs and such. I’ve seen/played very few games of AOS 2.0 where anything that is not a tarpit or screening unit charges and dosent make a big mess.

Yet another reason why giving a Stardrake the ability to inflict MW’s on a 4+ save is very good

[Vextol]

48 minutes ago, Nos said:

Witch Elves, Blight Kings, Sequitors, Grimghast Reapers, Chainrasp, any unit with spears and 20+ models,  Dryads, Ardboyz, Daemonettes, Reavers, Fyreslayers 

There’s  few battleline that can’t throw out stupid attacks with fairly elemental buffs and such. I’ve seen/played very few games of AOS 2.0 where anything that is not a tarpit or screening unit charges and dosent make a big mess.

Blight Kings-No Rend,  1 damage attacks, multi wound models, incredible defense, very expensive

Sequitors - No Rend except the special guys (and only 1 for them), 1 damage attacks attack except the special guys, multi wound model, great defense, expensive

Gringhast Reapers - BEST defense because they can't ever die in a LoN, great defense with the ethereal alone and regen, only 1 rend, and 1 damage attacks

Chainrasp - no rend, good defense with ethereal and regen, 1 damage attacks

Dryads - No rend, 1 damage attacks, great defense

Ardboyz - multi wound, decent save, 1 rend only, 1 damage attacks

Daemonettes - 1 damage attacks, 1 rend only

Reavers - 1 damage attacks, 1 rend only

Fyreslayers - Pretty broad....but, mostly 1 rend attacks and 1 wound only with the exception of berzerkers. 

I don't know witch elves very well, but from a general glance I'm seeing no rend 1 damage attacks.  Not sure which spear men you are referring to.

Not....really sure where to go with this 😂

Getting tons and tons and tons of low damage, low rend attacks through to the stardrake is like a dream for your opponent.  It's amazing to watch super potent infantry units kill themselves with their bulk attacks.  The addition to the core rules forcing you to use all your weapons made the stardrake an awesome offensive-defense character.

I believe that there is a shortage of super glassy, multi damage/high rend melee infantry options.  They need to be glassy or they'd be too expensive.  I'm talking hard hitting pansies.  I don't need them all fancied up with mortal wounds, just good old generic 'damage'.

This would be a type of normal-ish unit that could handle a stardrake (due to his frequent 1+ reroll 1s save).  I always thought Orcs should fit this bill but alas, they do not.  In one of my ponderings I wondered what would happen if you increased the rend of every Orc melee attack by 1.  Give those greenies what they deserve and have them all hit like tanks!

[Nos]

25 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Blight Kings-No Rend,  1 damage attacks, multi wound models, incredible defense, very expensive

Sequitors - No Rend except the special guys (and only 1 for them), 1 damage attacks attack except the special guys, multi wound model, great defense, expensive

Gringhast Reapers - BEST defense because they can't ever die in a LoN, great defense with the ethereal alone and regen, only 1 rend, and 1 damage attacks

Chainrasp - no rend, good defense with ethereal and regen, 1 damage attacks

Dryads - No rend, 1 damage attacks, great defense

Ardboyz - multi wound, decent save, 1 rend only, 1 damage attacks

Daemonettes - 1 damage attacks, 1 rend only

Reavers - 1 damage attacks, 1 rend only

Fyreslayers - Pretty broad....but, mostly 1 rend attacks and 1 wound only with the exception of berzerkers. 

I don't know witch elves very well, but from a general glance I'm seeing no rend 1 damage attacks.  Not sure which spear men you are referring to.

Not....really sure where to go with this 😂

Getting tons and tons and tons of low damage, low rend attacks through to the stardrake is like a dream for your opponent.  It's amazing to watch super potent infantry units kill themselves with their bulk attacks.  The addition to the core rules forcing you to use all your weapons made the stardrake an awesome offensive-defense character.

I believe that there is a shortage of super glassy, multi damage/high rend melee infantry options.  They need to be glassy or they'd be too expensive.  I'm talking hard hitting pansies.  I don't need them all fancied up with mortal wounds, just good old generic 'damage'.

This would be a type of normal-ish unit that could handle a stardrake (due to his frequent 1+ reroll 1s save).  I always though Orcs should fit this bill but alas, they do not.  

As I said-big battleline units with elemental buffs. Not small battleline units with nothing, as you took the time to type out.

But you’d have to be pretty dumb to attack a Stardrake with battleline units and expect them to beat it anyway. As I’ve said I love it when my Stardrake gets attacked by big units of infantry. And I tend to line them up for charges with mine for the same reason. It’s like the optimal target.

But as an example-10 Blightkings with Blades of Putrification cast on them are doing 30 attacks base, as well as multiple attacks on 6+ and a MW. Virulent Discharge can also do up to 3 MW’s per fight.  Regardless of lack of Rend law of averages state SD going to be crippled in fairly short order. Stardrake costs more and is more premium in respect to the space it takes whereas BK are battleline so in terms of a trade it’s better for BK.

But there’s plenty other stuff with multiple attacks, high rend, Mortal wound splash, spells etc can easily knock wounds off it and make it an expensive punching bag. Just not, y’know, the cheapest units in the game.

 

[Vextol]

1 hour ago, Nos said:

But as an example-10 Blightkings with Blades of Putrification cast on them are doing 30 attacks base, as well as multiple attacks on 6+ and a MW. Virulent Discharge can also do up to 3 MW’s per fight.  Regardless of lack of Rend law of averages state SD going to be crippled in fairly short order. Stardrake costs more and is more premium in respect to the space it takes whereas BK are battleline so in terms of a trade it’s better for BK.

Ok, good example.  30 base attacks, 6s doing mortals and exploding.  So of those 30, 5 will explode for 17.5 hits and 5 mortal wounds.  The others we're looking at 15 hits.  Those 32.5 go through at 21.7 wounds.  The stardrake in question should be allowed to be buffed too (he is an opponent with a brain after all) so it's not unreasonable to expect him to have a 1+ save.  That means you will have 0.6 wounds that get through.  You will do an average of 0.33 with your discharge (eww) so you're looking at 5.33 wounds dealt from mortals, 0.6 from regular attacks.  That means that 89.9% of your damage to the stardrake is with mortal wounds 😦

That also assumes the stardrake can't fend off mortal wounds, which, they often can. 

Well, the original preface was that I thought there was a lack of 'normal' damage, normal bulk melee units in the game that can actually do anything to the stardrake.  Blight kings (320 points worth not counting the caster or taking into account the odds of getting off the spell when there is a stardrake around), in almost any quantity will struggle unless you give them mortal wound output.  And they're pretty expensive.

There are no cheapish, bulk units out there that fill the gap of high rend, low damage.  Everything out there pierces armor with mortal wounds, not rend.  Mortal wound output doesn't make most units more focused and specific, it just makes them generically "better"

1 hour ago, Nos said:

But you’d have to be pretty dumb to attack a Stardrake with battleline units and expect them to beat it anyway. As I’ve said I love it when my Stardrake gets attacked by big units of infantry. And I tend to line them up for charges with mine for the same reason. It’s like the optimal target.

Agreed.  I think we need some cheap, high rend units in the game.  Units that maybe don't have great bulk damage output, but extremely consistent damage output.  That's all rend does really. It just adds consistency.   I feel like it's underutilized right now in warscrolls. 

I know mortals do similar things, but it would be nice to see something different.  Rend is different enough and interesting enough that it should be toyed with as often as mortal wounds are.

[Nos]

4 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Agreed.  I think we need some cheap, high rend units in the game.  Units that maybe don't have great bulk damage output, but extremely consistent damage output.  That's all rend does really. It just adds consistency.   I feel like it's underutilized right now in warscrolls. 

I know mortals do similar things, but it would be nice to see something different.  Rend is different enough and interesting enough that it should be toyed with as often as mortal wounds are.

I dunno, I think high rend is like an elite thing because, as you state, it’s a consistency multiplier. And in a game full of chance consistency is huge.  So I just don’t see how you’d get a non-elite unit with decent read without it just becoming an elite unit for that very reason.

I could see an army who are sort of the opposite of Night Haunt maybe. Like A monster army where there’s not many attacks but every one hurts. Thing is though to make that remotley sensible you’d probably have to have a ****** to hit profile otherwise they’d still be too good because again consistency in a game of chance is king.

[Kramer]

5 minutes ago, Nos said:

I dunno, I think high rend is like an elite thing because, as you state, it’s a consistency multiplier. And in a game full of chance consistency is huge.  So I just don’t see how you’d get a non-elite unit with decent read without it just becoming an elite unit for that very reason.

I could see an army who are sort of the opposite of Night Haunt maybe. Like A monster army where there’s not many attacks but every one hurts. Thing is though to make that remotley sensible you’d probably have to have a ****** to hit profile otherwise they’d still be too good because again consistency in a game of chance is king.

Sounds like Beastclaw Raiders  

[Vextol]

5 minutes ago, Nos said:

I dunno, I think high rend is like an elite thing because, as you state, it’s a consistency multiplier. And in a game full of chance consistency is huge.  So I just don’t see how you’d get a non-elite unit with decent read without it just becoming an elite unit for that very reason.

I could see an army who are sort of the opposite of Night Haunt maybe. Like A monster army where there’s not many attacks but every one hurts. Thing is though to make that remotley sensible you’d probably have to have a ****** to hit profile otherwise they’d still be too good because again consistency in a game of chance is king.

Not trying to get off topic, but I think both are reasonable if the rest of their stats would match.  1 attack, 5+, 4+ -8 rend, 1 damage each is much worse than 2 attacks, 3+, 3+, -8 rend 1 damage each.  Both units are completely viable.  Obviously they are just examples, but, tweaked accordingly one would not be considered elite, one would.  Both could be effective in some situations and virtually useless in others.  I mean, I could consider the 5+,4+ unit against a buffed Drake but it's basically useless against 20 skeletons!

I guess I would like an army made up of models that fit both category.  The same could be said about high damage. 

I think it would be interesting conceptually to make an army that did the exact opposite of what you were saying about randomness.  "For every three models from this unit that attack an enemy unit, that unit suffers 1 unsavable wound". Have their whole society based around mathematics and perfection. 

The beauty of this system is there is so much potential of what you can do with it.  

[Djoblo]

6 hours ago, Nos said:

I dunno, I think high rend is like an elite thing because, as you state, it’s a consistency multiplier. And in a game full of chance consistency is huge.  So I just don’t see how you’d get a non-elite unit with decent read without it just becoming an elite unit for that very reason.

I could see an army who are sort of the opposite of Night Haunt maybe. Like A monster army where there’s not many attacks but every one hurts. Thing is though to make that remotley sensible you’d probably have to have a ****** to hit profile otherwise they’d still be too good because again consistency in a game of chance is king.

Recently fire at a stardrake with 12 arkanaut skyhook, khemist buffed and reroll all and double turn shoot. That was 48 shoot 3+3+ reroll -2 rend d3 damage. Even with its 3+ reroll save. He took 17 wounds (I was a bit lucky on the roll but statistically, it's 11 wound. But still got 12 drill canon shoot reroll all rend-3 to finish him

Anyway I must agree a rend mechanic would be fun. Because that high fire power was all a got and I all sacrificed on that ******. 

[XReN]

Nice topic, that was quite interesting to read through, as I bought my first Stardrake last week, I'm looking forward for all the suffering)
And I will have my expectations ruined, cuz I'm used to running mounted ghoul kings who, unlike stardrake, do pack a punch (12 kurnoths trashed in couple of turns whille only for 1 combat phase there was both of my Gkings) 

[Gotrek]

Star drakes are going to be worth their weight in diamonds against the gloomspite gitz. Netters? Eat them. All those those other -1 to hit penalties? Tail slap and thundershield will do all the heavy lifting for you. All those little combo pieces they have running around? Drop stars on them. Oh the bad moon is helping your spells and hurting mine? Nah, I'll just nullify that, thanks for trying.

No joke, I fear that dragon as much if not more than anything else in the army. Rain of stars is just crippling to me as a BoK and LoN player. Add in that its ****** indestructible it really hurts. I mean at least I can kill the celestant prime.

[Primes]

To give the topic an even more positive spin:

For someone like me, who owns a Stardrake and is less than impressed with our current battletome: How would you maximise the benefit of our beautiful celestial behemoth with a proper list build around him?

I think the essentials are:

• LCoSD
• Lord Castellant
• Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger (for his Heals and the Casting Synergy)

leaving us with 1.100 Points to play with. What would you take?

I hope the question is not off-topic as looking at a Warscroll in the whole context of an armies options seems to make more sense then analysing an individual warscroll and points.

Best Regards

Chris

 

[Beliman]

10 hours ago, Djoblo said:

Recently fire at a stardrake with 12 arkanaut skyhook, khemist buffed and reroll all and double turn shoot. That was 48 shoot 3+3+ reroll -2 rend d3 damage. Even with its 3+ reroll save. He took 17 wounds (I was a bit lucky on the roll but statistically, it's 11 wound. But still got 12 drill canon shoot reroll all rend-3 to finish him

Remember that this is the only thing that we can do: hit with high rend and multiple damage. And 640 points dedicated to killing monsters and heroes (plus allegiance abilities to upgrade our dmg output), imho should kill big and scary monsters.

[XReN]

2 hours ago, Primes said:

To give the topic an even more positive spin:

For someone like me, who owns a Stardrake and is less than impressed with our current battletome: How would you maximise the benefit of our beautiful celestial behemoth with a proper list build around him?

I think the essentials are:

• LCoSD
• Lord Castellant
• Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger (for his Heals and the Casting Synergy)

leaving us with 1.100 Points to play with. What would you take?

I hope the question is not off-topic as looking at a Warscroll in the whole context of an armies options seems to make more sense then analysing an individual warscroll and points.

Best Regards

Chris

 

3x5 libs
Bucket of skinks 
Some evocators 
Maybe good, maybe upgrade 1 unit of libs to bow juds to put more pressure on heroes in addition to starfall

[Primes]

2 minutes ago, XReN said:

3x5 libs
Bucket of skinks 
Some evocators 
Maybe good, maybe upgrade 1 unit of libs to bow juds to put more pressure on heroes in addition to starfall

Unfortunately I don´t really like allying skinks in from a army-flavor and aesthetics standpoint. I agree tho, that they offer exactly what vanilla SC are lacking.

Adding shooting seems like a goog idea I thought of as well. One might even work with 3x5 Juds, filling the rest of the list with chaff (aetherwings) or even more shooting (Ballistas, Hurricanes or even Longstrikes (who fit very well with starstrike regarding character sniping).

[AdamR]

1 hour ago, Primes said:

Unfortunately I don´t really like allying skinks in from a army-flavor and aesthetics standpoint. I agree tho, that they offer exactly what vanilla SC are lacking.

Adding shooting seems like a goog idea I thought of as well. One might even work with 3x5 Juds, filling the rest of the list with chaff (aetherwings) or even more shooting (Ballistas, Hurricanes or even Longstrikes (who fit very well with starstrike regarding character sniping).

This works for me.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender 
- Spell: Ayrite Halo
Lord-Celestant On Stardrake (560)
- Celestine Hammer
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Castellant (100)
Knight-Heraldor (100)

Battleline
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades

Units
10 x Evocators (400)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124