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AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion


Malakree

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5 minutes ago, Xarnax said:

I feel like it's necessary to take a large units of goblins to maximize the effects of the Loonshrine. I would probably always go for 60 which causes a tax of 360 points in all my lists. Thoughts?

Get your gobbo ass outta here. Loonshrine makes Troggoth not scared thats good enough.

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6 minutes ago, Xarnax said:

I feel like it's necessary to take a large units of goblins to maximize the effects of the Loonshrine. I would probably always go for 60 which causes a tax of 360 points in all my lists. Thoughts?

Might as well go 3 20s to actually activate the Loonshrine. Have you ever had to kill 60 goblins? It is not easy.

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Just now, Xarnax said:

I wish it wasn't the case, but it's an unused ability and I just have a hard time overlooking that :D 

You are talking about playing a Troggoth list. It's not like we are trying to actually have the best army here. for the prize of 60 goblins you can run 6 Troggoths + an endless spell if you want to. I know what I'm choosing

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2 minutes ago, Eevika said:

You are talking about playing a Troggoth list. It's not like we are trying to actually have the best army here. for the prize of 60 goblins you can run 6 Troggoths + an endless spell if you want to. I know what I'm choosing

You say that like he's somehow wrong in wanting to have objective security while maintaining a primarily troll centered army?

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1 minute ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

You say that like he's somehow wrong in wanting to have objective security while maintaining a primarily troll centered army?

I'm just joking. He said its's necessary to take 60 grots just because of the loonshrine but I dont think thats very true as you still only have a 50% chance to return the unit. 

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6 minutes ago, Eevika said:

I'm just joking. He said its's necessary to take 60 grots just because of the loonshrine but I dont think thats very true as you still only have a 50% chance to return the unit. 

Point taken. 50% chance to return 30 goblins is 15 returned on average. Not really that impressive. I still hate not using an ability and missing out on optimization.

 

EDIT: Scratch that. You can try to get the 30 goblins back each turn, but can only return a unit once. This makes me like the ability more, and makes me dislike taking several smaller units.

Edited by Xarnax
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1 minute ago, Xarnax said:

Point taken. 50% chance to return 30 goblins is 15 returned on average. Not really that impressive. I still hate not using an ability and missing out on optimization.

You can optimize your Troggoths. Whats the best way to actually debuff the enemies to never hurt your troggoths? How do you optimize spellcasting in a troggoth list and get your enemies off of objectives with spells like Banishment? Taking grots is too easy you have to think outside of the box.

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Okay, here is some optimization for you. Rockgut trolls aren't that much worse in close combat than fellwater troggoths. They actually get better and better compared to fellwater troggoths, depending on the opponents armor save. At 3+ save, the two types are equally good, and at 2+ the Rockguts are actually better.

Their defensive abilities comparative strength are negotiable, and I guess it depends on what's hitting the trolls. Same goes for the ranged attacks.

What I'm saying is this - People have been bashing the Rockguts a bit, but I see them filling the role of armorbreakers perfectly well in a troll army.  My spidersenses is telling me to balance a troll army around 2/3 Fellwater to 1/3 Rockguts against 'all comers'. When you meet Nurgle, witches and death, you would much rather have fellwater troggoths, which is why I'm leaning in that direction. 

Edited by Xarnax
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6 minutes ago, Xarnax said:

Okay, here is some optimization for you. Rockgut trolls aren't that much worse in close combat than fellwater troggoths. They actually get better and better compared to fellwater troggoths, depending on the opponents armor save. At 3+ save, the two types are equally good, and at 2+ the Rockguts are actually better.

Their defensive abilities comparative strength are negotiable, and I guess it depends on what's hitting the trolls. Same goes for the ranged attacks.

What I'm saying is this - People have been bashing the Rockguts a bit, but I see them filling the role of armorbreakers perfectly well in a troll army.  My spidersenses is telling me to balance a troll army around 2/3 Fellwater to 1/3 Rockguts against 'all comers'. When you meet Nurgle, witches and death, you would much rather have fellwater troggoths, which is why I'm leaning in that direction. 

How many things have 2+ armor save? I dont think I have ever played against such a thing 

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4 hours ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

You say that like he's somehow wrong in wanting to have objective security while maintaining a primarily troll centered army?

All this talking of tactics in a troll thread is confusing to me.  I’m going to go back to drooling insensibly while staring at a fascinatingly unremarkable rock on the ground...

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Hi there! Im building a Trogoth army as my second ever (first beeing Nighthaunt). Today just ordered what it will be my core (2 dankhold one as boss one as regular and 2 units of rokguth), with the batallion that will put me on 1k points. At bigger games I may consider just playing the nighthaunt for now as I have more points.

And ironically a gift put me into a difficult position. Just got a 25 euro gift from the owner of  my friendly local store (where I just ordered) as it is my birthday soon, and the thing is I can only spend it on items on store. As they dont have trogoths yet, which units do you consider best support for my trogoth list? They have hoppers, fanatics, skragot and the spells. I own already the Moon and the battletome. What do you guys think? And thanks for the answers in advance!

Fast edit: I could wait and just buy more trogoths, but as they have to be on store, it will depend if they bring them to have them or not. I honestly doubt they bring the big one, maybe the rockgut and it will depend on how popular they are...

Edited by miguel_fernan
Add a little information on my question
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15 minutes ago, miguel_fernan said:

Hi there! Im building a Trogoth army as my second ever (first beeing Nighthaunt). Today just ordered what it will be my core (2 dankhold one as boss one as regular and 2 units of rokguth), with the batallion that will put me on 1k points. At bigger games I may consider just playing the nighthaunt for now as I have more points.

 And ironically a gift put me into a difficult position. Just got a 25 euro gift from the owner of  my friendly local store (where I just ordered) as it is my birthday soon, and the thing is I can only spend it on items on store. As they dont have trogoths yet, which units do you consider best support for my trogoth list? They have hoppers, fanatics, skragot and the spells. I own already the Moon and the battletome. What do you guys think? And thanks for the answers in advance!

 Fast edit: I could wait and just buy more trogoths, but as they have to be on store, it will depend if they bring them to have them or not. I honestly doubt they bring the big one, maybe the rockgut and it will depend on how popular they are...

Probably for being competitive basic grots are the best option. It has been discussed a lot here that the netter frontline with troggoths behind will most likely be the best troggoth list.

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58 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Well, having had a test game today to try the Fellwaters and Hag out, I have say that the Hag with Gryph-Feather charm is almost unsinkable, even taking the MW from the cauldrons, and that the Fellwaters are brutal. Took 10 wounds off a unit of Palladors in one combat. 

I'm very happy hearing this as I'm finishing the paint job on my hag and have 9 more fellwater troggoths waiting for painting 👌🏻

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Lots of people planning Rockgut rather than Fellwater, but the Fellwater warscroll does seem better for the price in almost all situations. Rule of cool? I do wish these had been balanced more as the Rockgut troll models are awesome..perhaps 3 attacks for them would have done it?

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10 hours ago, Malakree said:

Did you get to bolt the enemies much with the D3 damage from the cauldron? 

Yeah, she was utterly besieged at one point so was managing to pass it around. We had some rules queries though as the warscroll says they become one model and so at one point my opponent and I were attacking each other via base to base with the Cauldron. I think that’s how it’s supposed to work?

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12 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Yeah, she was utterly besieged at one point so was managing to pass it around. We had some rules queries though as the warscroll says they become one model and so at one point my opponent and I were attacking each other via base to base with the Cauldron. I think that’s how it’s supposed to work?

Yes I believe so. I sent a massive questions list to the faq team yesterday and the exact intricacies if how the cauldron works were the most technical.

 

1 hour ago, Tailessine said:

Lots of people planning Rockgut rather than Fellwater, but the Fellwater warscroll does seem better for the price in almost all situations. Rule of cool? I do wish these had been balanced more as the Rockgut troll models are awesome..perhaps 3 attacks for them would have done it?

Personally I think they serve two slightly different purposes and you are underestimating the rockguts. Doing a basic comparison of 3 troggs attacking with the command ability.

graph.php?q=r:335:12:2:m100&f=isrgraph.php?q=r:336:6:3:m100&f=isr

So against a flat 4+ save with no rerolls the two forms of troggoths melee output is functionally the same.  As with any higher rend situation the moment we start increasing the opponents save or, more importantly, giving them rerolls we will see the rockguts hold their own far better.

Then we compare the shooting phase attacks and they serve two totally different purposes. The most important being that the rockguts bolder throw is NOT a shooting attack. That means it ignores lookout sir, melee targeting restrictions etc. When combined with the 12" range rather than 6" it becomes clear that the rockguts attack is horrifically good at picking out support characters.

Lastly is the -1 To hit vs 5++. Again two different purposes, the -1 To hit does nothing against mortal wounds (or shooting). So spells or evocators are going to ignore it to blow your fellwaters off the board.

So in conclusion. Both types of troggoth are good, really good. They just serve two different purposes. If you want to rip apart a unit of 40 skeles fellwaters are way better.

graph.php?q=r:330:12:2:m100;r:230:3:d3:mgraph.php?q=r:330:6:3:m100;a:0.5:1d3&f=i

However if it's against sequiturs with staunch defender and reroll all saves the rockguts win by miles. (Note because of the tool the sequitors are getting to reroll 4s vs the rockguts which they shouldn't be. So the rockguts damage is actually LOWER than in reality)

graph.php?q=r:334:12:2:m103;r:233:3:d3:mgraph.php?q=r:335:6:3:m103;a:0.5:1d3&f=i

So yeah. Rockguts aren't bad, far from it. They just fullfill a different role. Depends what you want out of your unit, an optimal army probably runs both but would suffer least from not having fellwaters (imo).

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