AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion

[Calebexnihilo]

My core is DankBoss, Hag, and 5 units of 3 Trolls.

I've had fun allying in Orc Warboss on Wyvern and using Loonskin,  Fungoids, and Aetherquartz Broach to pump his command ability thru the roof!! He makes a fun, fast killy hero with a decent save (rerolls all failed saves).

But my next target list includes Dank, Hag, Scragrott, Trolls, and some squid herd to camp and objective around the loonshrine (lots of wounds ignoring battleshock).

[ShaneHobbes]

That was my tournament list. This is the list I run normally which I shameless copied from this forum: Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Trait: Loonskin 
- Artefact: Glowy Howzit 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: Itchy Nuisance

Battleline
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (320)
9 x Rockgut Troggoths (480)

Endless Spells / Terrain
Mork's Mighty Mushroom (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 128

I've been splitting the rockguts into smaller unit sizes lately for usually better results. 

I got an Arachnarok and so this is what I'll be running. Sneaky Distraction with all my Trogs around hopefully.

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Trait: Loonskin 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork
Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider(300)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Sneaky Distraction

Battleline
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain
Scuttletide (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

[Melcar]

My idea for a list was this:

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Trait: Tough as Rocks
Troggoth Hag (380)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (300)
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Curse of da Spider God
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork

Battleline
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)

Behemoths
Rogue Idol (400)
- Allies

Endless Spells / Terrain
Scrapskuttle's Arachnacauldron (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 400 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

Again, I see how that might just suck outright... I don't know to be honest!

[ShaneHobbes]

3 minutes ago, Melcar said:

My idea for a list was this:

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Trait: Tough as Rocks
Troggoth Hag (380)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (300)
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Curse of da Spider God
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork

Battleline
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)

Behemoths
Rogue Idol (400)
- Allies

Endless Spells / Terrain
Scrapskuttle's Arachnacauldron (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 400 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

Again, I see how that might just suck outright... I don't know to be honest!

It looks fun at the very least lol. I dont think I'd bring the Rogue Idol but that with the Hag and Arach-Wizard looks funny as hell.

Honestly my answer to fix anything would just be "Add more Rockguts!"

[Melcar]

12 hours ago, ShaneHobbes said:

It looks fun at the very least lol. I dont think I'd bring the Rogue Idol but that with the Hag and Arach-Wizard looks funny as hell.

Honestly my answer to fix anything would just be "Add more Rockguts!"

Yeah, I believe its a fun list, and it has some hard hitting models and some spells, but it does not have many models at all. It however fits the dark forest/swamp/witcher 3 theme I want... Again, the primary reason for the rogue idol is the coolness factor, but it is quite good... question is whether its better than 6 fellwater/rockgut troggoth...

[ShaneHobbes]

6 minutes ago, Melcar said:

Yeah, I believe its a fun list, and it has some hard hitting models and some spells, but it does not have many models at all. It however fits the dark forest/swamp/witcher 3 theme I want... Again, the primary reason for the rogue idol is the coolness factor, but it is quite good... question is whether its better than 6 fellwater/rockgut troggoth...

I haven't played my Idol in awhile. I think I'll break it out this weekend along with a Hag and a couple of Gargants so thanks for that lol

I dont think itll be better than trogs thoughbut I guess we'll find out. I wish its +1 casting worked on the Hag.

[Melcar]

10 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

I haven't played my Idol in awhile. I think I'll break it out this weekend along with a Hag and a couple of Gargants so thanks for that lol

I dont think itll be better than trogs thoughbut I guess we'll find out. I wish its +1 casting worked on the Hag.

Cool... please let me know how the idol fared! And yes, it would be sweet if its buffs worked broader! Also, having the hag have the dankhold keyword would be nice as well -  and the ability to make troggoth battleline in addition to the trogboss if general!

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

I'd always bring at least 1 unit of 20 grots.

The thing with a Troll army is very careful positioning as losing even one troll will be felt. If you can get the positioning right and pick your fights (Itchy Nuisance helps a ton here) then Trolls will roll over almost anything they get close to.

The low model count is an issue, but then if you're the last man standing then numbers are irrelevant. Trolls are very good at being last man standing.

Also, because every attack counts (at least with Rockguts) I bring Moonface Mommet to rule out my enemy making any saves (provided it's 4+) as they can and will roll a 6 or two.

[Eevika]

15 hours ago, Calebexnihilo said:

If they drastically reduce Troggherd price and maybe drop DankBoss or trolls 10-20 points, we will be in a good spot.

Troggboss needs to drop about 60-80 points to be good and the regular should drop 60. They arent slightly over costed they are massively over costed. Troggherd should go down to a 100 points as the bonus it gives is so minimal. 

[Melcar]

1 hour ago, Eevika said:

Troggboss needs to drop about 60-80 points to be good and the regular should drop 60. They arent slightly over costed they are massively over costed. Troggherd should go down to a 100 points as the bonus it gives is so minimal. 

I completly agree. I wound say they need about 20% point reduction on all troggoth models. That way the troggbass would cost 240, and the hag 300, rock- and fellwater would cost 130 and Mollog 140 and 180 for the dankhold trog.

And yes, the battalion should cost no more than 120 points

I sincerely hope GW will give them a substantial point reduction in GHB19...

[Malakree]

Personally if I was going to run pure troggoth it would look something like this

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Trait: Loonskin 
- Artefact: Shiny Wotnot 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: Itchy Nuisance 

Battleline
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (320)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (320)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (320)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (320)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 136

Your biggest issue as troggs is wounds and bodies.

This allows you to somewhat mitigate that by putting 4 big units of troggs on the board which will both hit like trains and have a 5++ to boost up their wounds. You also get 4 boulder throws which gives some not insignificant character assassination potential. 

The two blocks of 3 fellwaters provide solid objective holders away from the deathstar.

I'm torn between hand of Gork and itchy nuisance but I feel we need an answer to the activation wars and this at least gives us potential.

I think the problem troggs face competitively is that almost all list are theme lists rather than competitive. Rogue idol, trogg hag and troggherd are all so expensive that they greatly detract from your board presence and we don't have enough to start with. 

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

I doubt any Dankholds are going down by much due to the way GW calculate points. Dankboss has so many rules and advantages over other models, even though people seem to only see his damage. The lack of a degrading statline, the ability to take cover and look out sir are all things people seem to overlook and I imagine it's why he's so expensive. He's also on a 60mm base with a monster statline which may also be taken into account, his power per square inch is huge by contrast. He's the smallest biggest foot hero in the game and that counts for a lot.

d6 damage and 6" move though oh no! (even though you can literally fix these). He's a rock solid lynchpin for command abilities and cp generation, he's not meant to be a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist. In a book where most things are relatively cheap it balances itself out; taken in a vacuum he will always look overcosted. If you're taking Troggherd and a Hag don't be surprised when the army's looking a little light on the table. Or maybe he's just a balanced model in a game where *Insert flying monster* is king. Furthermore, in a game where magic is critical to many armies, the ability to ignore spells probably is a solid amount of his cost already.

But then people will always complain if it doesn't fly and hit like a ballistic missile. I mean people think the Mangler Boss is overcosted and it does that too!

Dankboss will be between 260 and 280 at best, any more is wishful thinking. Probably 280. Calling him a 220 model is ludicrous; just because, unlike many models, he hasn't got a hyper-specialized role doesn't automatically make him bad. Want to make him efficient? Just do what most people do and generate 50 points every turn with Loonskin. I find it hard to call that bad.

Normal Dankhold going anywhere close to 160 invalidates the already mostly invalid Gargant, although if we ignore him I'd say 180 is good. I can't imagine normal trolls going down at all as they are solid units in most regards. But they're not wychelves so they're automatically overcosted by some people's reckoning...

Or maybe it's because people like to compare the balanced units to the broken ones and call the former bad?

The Dankboss is fine, just don't overload on other expensive units. He's one of those models that on turns 4 and 5 you'll be glad you have because he's still alive and can work at full capacity regardless of what's going on. And if you lose such an easy to protect model then I can't help you.

You can make the point that he's not great for tournaments. Sure. But here we are in a thread talking about an army of Trolls, so we've already moved past that point.

[novakai]

2 hours ago, Melcar said:

I completly agree. I wound say they need about 20% point reduction on all troggoth models. That way the troggbass would cost 240, and the hag 300, rock- and fellwater would cost 130 and Mollog 140 and 180 for the dankhold trog.

And yes, the battalion should cost no more than 120 points

I sincerely hope GW will give them a substantial point reduction in GHB19...

I heard the Gloomspite point decrease are not in the GHB but the digital version whatever that means

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

I think the problem troggs face competitively is that almost all list are theme lists rather than competitive. Rogue idol, trogg hag and troggherd are all so expensive that they greatly detract from your board presence and we don't have enough to start with. 

 

yeah I think everyone tries to avoid filling their armies with Grots (or maybe even Squigs) but that is really the only way to go about it to make any of the sub-factions work IMO.

[Aelfric]

With the new Meeting Engagement rules coming, I'm considering this list:

 

Spearhead

Fungoid Cave Shaman - Hand of Gork

3 Fellwater Troggoths

Main Body

Dankhold Troggboss - General Loonskin, Gryph-feather

6 Rockgut Troggoths

Rearguard

20 Stabbas

1000 pts

What do people think?

(If I gain 30 points in the new GHB, I'd swap the Stabbas for 3 Fellwaters.)

 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

d6 damage and 6" move though oh no! (even though you can literally fix these). He's a rock solid lynchpin for command abilities and cp generation, he's not meant to be a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist. In a book where most things are relatively cheap it balances itself out; taken in a vacuum he will always look overcosted. If you're taking Troggherd and a Hag don't be surprised when the army's looking a little light on the table. Or maybe he's just a balanced model in a game where *Insert flying monster* is king. Furthermore, in a game where magic is critical to many armies, the ability to ignore spells probably is a solid amount of his cost already.

The issue with the Troggboss is that he's on a 4+ with no after saves, his damage output is really random for his points level, he can't fly so he gets screened hard and the 6" move makes him way to slow to be a realistic threat. On the spell example, you can get a bloodthirster with a 2+ spell ignore that flies, moves faster and does way more damage for the same points.

Sure you can make him faster or fly but if you do that his damage is mediocre, you can make his damage really solid but then he gets screened and kited, you can make him a reasonable buff bot but then he's both slow and his damage sucks. Essentially you can pick one area to make him competitive in and then he's sub-par in the others, compare him to the Footboss in Ironjawz. For the same cost I can get him with SoJ and 2 warchanters giving him 6 attacks that do d6 mortals on a 4+ to hit. 

Realistically the only time you take him is as a buff bot for your Troggs. If you're looking at taking a Dankhold in a list without Troggs you take Mollog instead, he has the bravery buff, brings a bunch of utility, is just as tanky and is 130 points cheaper.

EDIT: 

Quote

Or maybe it's because people like to compare the balanced units to the broken ones and call the former bad?

In a war fought by gods a single mortal is worthless.

What you're calling Broken is actually just strong, the stuff which can fight that Broken stuff is balanced, everything else is underpowered. A beastclaw raider looks at his stonehorn and goes "this is balanced" then looks at a Dragonlord and says "this is broken".

Saying "no, no I'm the one whose balanced the rest of you are just underpowered or overpowered" is a meaningless statement. You're either competitive or not. Right now the Troggboss is not a competitive pick because of his cost, that means he's underpowered, maybe not as bad as the Mawkrusha, but that's like looking at two turds and saying this one smells worse.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Malakree

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

13 minutes ago, Malakree said:

What you're calling Broken is actually just strong, the stuff which can fight that Broken stuff is balanced, everything else is underpowered. A beastclaw raider looks at his stonehorn and goes "this is balanced" then looks at a Dragonlord and says "this is broken".

In your opinion maybe, but when you compare points cost for things like Wychelves and Flesh Eater combos to most other units, that is most certainly broken; they are aberrations by comparison. I'm not calling Bloodthirsters broken, I'm calling standard infantry that when buffed have a damage potential of 240 broken or dragons that can do a dance and a backflip before you can blink broken. People see the best something can be and want that, disregarding what they already have.

 

20 minutes ago, Malakree said:

In a war fought by gods a single mortal is worthless.

Say that to Frodo

21 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Saying "no, no I'm the one whose balanced the rest of you are just underpowered or overpowered" is a meaningless statement. You're either competitive or not. Right now the Troggboss is not a competitive pick because of his cost, that means he's underpowered, maybe not as bad as the Mawkrusha, but that's like looking at two turds and saying this one smells worse. 

Don't make it about being competitive when I established we're talking about an army of Trolls. In normal AoS that is outside of the tournament scene, a Dankboss is a balanced unit. A Ghoul King on Terrorgheist in-allegiance is not. This is not AoS2 Competitive Dankold Troggoth Discussion so please don't keep bringing everything down to being competitive.

If you see everything through a meta lens then you're going to miss the way non-tournament players play and how they define things. Please remember that not everyone here is talking about a tournament scene. Most AoS players do not play competitively. You define units competitively, while most people just want to play a good balanced game and have fun, while feeling like what they field is satisfying to use.

I see a Dankboss as balanced because, much to people's complaints, he actually comes with a weakness, while also being able to perform to a decent standard (shocking I know). This, in my eyes, is a balanced unit. He may be tipping the scales at 300, but he's most certainly not a stab in the foot; that is what I'd define an underpowered unit as, something that harms you to take it over an alternative.

Again, if you want to talk competitive, then you're in the wrong thread to begin with because everything is stacked against a hyper-elite army in AoS. It's not the Dankboss' fault, it's the game system that favors massed hoards and flying beatsticks.

Furthermore, on the note of a buffbot: that's what almost all foot heroes do, and a Dankboss is a foot hero. Sure, he has the combined cost of a few of them, but who else can generate 1 extra command point a turn without rolling for most of the game, or have a high concentration of power on such a durable base? Mega boss example is pretty bad as we're going back to the damage route again which, as I will say again, is not what you should be playing him as; a Dankboss can and will hold his own if he has to. Most people would shriek at the thought of a 300 point backline hero who is a charge deterrent and a buff machine, and I say shriek away because that's what he is.

I would however like to see him come down 20-40 points; not because it benefits me precisely, but so people can finally stop bitching.

But let's be real.

The complaints will never stop.

[Pitloze]

Do you guys things Troggs are good models to use contrast paints on?

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

1 minute ago, Pitloze said:

Do you guys things Troggs are good models to use contrast paints on?

One of the best.

[Pitloze]

24 minutes ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

One of the best.

Reason is why I asked is because contrast paints to overlap well because they are so translucent. So you have to be careful about colors overlapping and creating colors you don't want (blue and yellow creating green for example). And a lot of Troggoth schemes have overlapping painting parts. But also a lot of Drybrushing. I would love to see someone's model if they tried it already!

[Malakree]

49 minutes ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

If you see everything through a meta lens then you're going to miss the way non-tournament players play and how they define things. Please remember that not everyone here is talking about a tournament scene. Most AoS players do not play competitively. You define units competitively, while most people just want to play a good balanced game and have fun, while feeling like what they field is satisfying to use.

You're right I do because outside of a competitive environment the rules are less strict and house rules are common. Pitched battle profiles are by definition competitive play, that's what they're designed for. They're there to support the tournament scene.

DoK vs Skaven IS a balanced game, the same way that Slaves to Darkness BCR is a balanced game. It's all relative. 

Fundamentally it doesn't matter where you draw the line and say "this is balanced" what matters is that as many armies as possible are able to compete within the 40-60% range as possible.

For me that's the fyreslayers, blades of khorne, maggotkin, slaanesh type area and right now the troggboss is to expensive to sit in that range. You might consider the line elsewhere but all you're really saying is that everybody else's stuff should cost more vs my our stuff should cost less.

It's literally the same argument and right now the bracket just above gloomspite is a really solid stable bracket with a ton of competitive and balanced options. Reduce the troggboss to about 220 and he will go into that bracket without being OP.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

I'd argue that, while GW say pitched battle profiles are competitive intended, it's really just used so that we  can have balanced games in the first place. Most people play with pitched battles, but most people are not tournament go'ers.

220 is pushing it imo; I'd rather see Troggherd go down and so Dankboss' value go up, than Dankboss go down by 80 points (I can't think of any cases where such a drop has happened, since it's not like he was written terribly in the first place). This is the more likely scenario in my mind, in order to get more worth out of a Dankboss. Battalion at 120, Dankboss at 260. Those are very much workable numbers. At 220 that would be extremely good, almost too good imo when you consider Loonskin. That's the range of many normal non-hero monsters, yet alone the stuff a Dankboss gets on top of that. And not only that, but at 220 you'd invalidate Mollog and normal Dankholds, as they won't be dropping all that much unless Gargants and normal trolls also go down, which is unlikely. If a Dankhold was 180, just by being a hero the boss will always be taken over it.

I think a safer bet, and one that is in line with what appears standard for a balance adjustment, a drop to 260-280 is more likely.

[Malakree]

At similar points bracket.

Bloodthirster, great unclean one, keeper of secrets, Lord of change, verminlords, any of the aelf dragons, cauldron of blood, free guild general on gryphon, volturnus, frostheart Phoenix, a whole raft of stormcast heroes, Arkhan...

All of those provide similar or greater levels of support combined with better base stats and attacks. A backline buff hero who has +1 bravery aura and +1 CP is worth ~140 points if they have an ok statline.

 

For the troggs realistically for competitive balance you're looking at.

Troggboss - 220, Mollog - 160, Dankhold -160, Troggherd 90-120, Gargant -120.

Maybe you drop the battletroggs 10/20 points but honestly they are solid at 160.

That would put all of them in the competitive range.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

The closest things to regular trolls are Fimir, so they would have to drop lower to 120 for Trolls to come down to 140, but they are very good at 160 regardless.

I wouldn't say that GuO, Keepers or LoC are in the same points bracket if it came down to 260/280, they're all far more expensive than a Dankboss at this adjusted rate. There's a whole Fungoid/ Madcap or more to squeeze in there if that's the case, in post-GHB list, factoring in other changes.

I mean sure, if a Dankboss came down to 220 he'd be almost an auto include if you have at least 6 Rockguts in a standard list, hell if he has Loonskin I can see him replacing Skragrott in some instances. If it makes a Troggherd army rise in the competitive ladder then so much the better. Knowing GW, I highly doubt it. I think his myriad of small abilities and little leg-ups over other models will keep him no lower than 260. The problem with some of your examples is that they're all highly focused units while the Dankboss is a jack of many trades.

I think that if you want to make a Dankboss work for you (at 300), one needs to be conscious of the rest of the army. I see far too many people complain that the Dankboss is a points sink when they're simultaneously running a Hag and Troggherd; sometimes even Mollog in the worst of cases. I'd rather take a Madcap with Moonface Mommet and a Dankboss than a Hag.

And it's not just because of the sagginess.

So to conclude, he's not a stab in the foot.

 

[Malakree]

55 minutes ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

The problem with some of your examples is that they're all highly focused units while the Dankboss is a jack of many trades.

Thing is that at 300 points stuff isn't focused, it's good at many things and doesn't require traits or an artefact to make it good.

I included a whole range around his points to show that realistically, especially in this tome phase, he's to mediocre across the board. Most are good in quite a few area while those which are focused are amazing in that area.

Honestly those kinds of points drops for troggs/spiderfang are what gloomspite needs. Most of the other stuff just needs tweaking. Stabbas are really solid for their price point and are the core of the army. The problem right now is that the stuff which goes around the stabbas is a bit to costly for the keyword bingo.

It's why if you look at Richies 3rd place at bobo it's basically entirely grots because they are the bit that is correctly costed.

[Sauriv]

Hi, i have followed this thread for about 4 months now but never posted here before, mostly because i have too few games with this army under my belt at the moment. 

Many of you guys are throwing around quite big numbers as "the reasonable discount" but changing points costs that much could have a fairly unpredictable effect in the game, which i strongly doubt that GW wants to risk.

I dont believe much will happen more than maybe a small discount to the battalion but rather i think "the best" factions will instead be nerfed. It's far easier to control the balance by nerfing the best to be more like the rest, than to throw around a bunch of discounts and hope that those factions gets to a even level to the best ones. 

One reason i think people feel that the boss is "weak" when comparing to other units in other factions is that those factions has more buffs to stack making, lets say, a bloodthirster quite strong for its own points.