AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

@tea_wild_owl what a fantastic theme and group of conversions you've done there, hats off for getting the minis rolling into this thread

@Scythian what an amazing horde!! Loonshrine turned out great

 

I was looking for some artifacts for Troggboss, Ghyrstrike (+1 to hits and wounds) looked to be a given but then I was looking at Anraheir's Claw and Blade of endings , also in malign sorcery 

These both say for every 6 on wound rolls (Claw) or hit rolls (blade) then add 2 damage the damage "characteristic"  of that weapon. Now Troggboss does does D3 damage for each success, now I've read these artifacts to add 2 to each of those D3 success rather that just D3 to the total damage done.

Now I can also see the logic behind just adding 2 to whatever damage I'd done after all the D3 have been totalled up but as I said the first read through I didn't see it like that

What's the take guys? If it is +2 to each D3 (so at least 3 damage each and 5 damage each max) either one would look like a good take, even over Ghyrstrike

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

1 hour ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

@tea_wild_owl what a fantastic theme and group of conversions you've done there, hats off for getting the minis rolling into this thread

@Scythian what an amazing horde!! Loonshrine turned out great

 

I was looking for some artifacts for Troggboss, Ghyrstrike (+1 to hits and wounds) looked to be a given but then I was looking at Anraheir's Claw and Blade of endings , also in malign sorcery 

These both say for every 6 on wound rolls (Claw) or hit rolls (blade) then add 2 damage the damage "characteristic"  of that weapon. Now Troggboss does does D3 damage for each success, now I've read these artifacts to add 2 to each of those D3 success rather that just D3 to the total damage done.

Now I can also see the logic behind just adding 2 to whatever damage I'd done after all the D3 have been totalled up but as I said the first read through I didn't see it like that

What's the take guys? If it is +2 to each D3 (so at least 3 damage each and 5 damage each max) either one would look like a good take, even over Ghyrstrike

Troggboss is d6 damage with its club.

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

26 minutes ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

Troggboss is d6 damage with its club

Of course, my bad bubut +2 to each d6 or whatever damage all d6 do in total?

[Skabnoze]

I am starting to consider items that grant extra attacks rather than Ghyrstrike or some of the others.  So the Troggboss command ability grants an aura to reroll attack rolls of 1 and he benefits from this.  There is not a ton of other stuff to use command points on in a pure Troggoth army, so I expect this ability is going to be active for most of the important combats that the Troggboss is in.  With that ability active he becomes fairly accurate and a +1 to hit is something I don't really feel is necessary.  The +1 to wound is better, as he will still fail to wound 1/3 of the time, but each attack he makes potentially hits like a freight train.  Depending upon the command abilities that you take I am starting to wonder if it is generally better to give the Troggboss more attacks than it is to beef up the ones that he already has.

[Skabnoze]

7 minutes ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

Of course, my bad bubut +2 to each d6 or whatever damage all d6 do in total?

The abilities that trigger when you roll a 6 to wound or 6 to hit trigger just for that single attack.  So for example, with the Troggboss if he wounded someone 3 times by rolling a 3, 5, 6 and he has an ability that triggers on a 6 to wound, then the damage he inflicts would be d6, d6, d6 +2.  In addition, you would need to have your opponent roll their saves separately since they can save specifically against the attack that generated extra damage and you would lose the bonus damage.

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

Thanks @Skabnoze that really clears it up for me, appreciate it

So it's a measure against whether it's worth taking +1 to an already good wound and hit roll or the chance to do +2 more damage on the off chance that wound/hit is a 6... not sure about the maths but I'm tempted to test them out

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

35 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I am starting to consider items that grant extra attacks rather than Ghyrstrike or some of the others.  So the Troggboss command ability grants an aura to reroll attack rolls of 1 and he benefits from this.  There is not a ton of other stuff to use command points on in a pure Troggoth army, so I expect this ability is going to be active for most of the important combats that the Troggboss is in.  With that ability active he becomes fairly accurate and a +1 to hit is something I don't really feel is necessary.  The +1 to wound is better, as he will still fail to wound 1/3 of the time, but each attack he makes potentially hits like a freight train.  Depending upon the command abilities that you take I am starting to wonder if it is generally better to give the Troggboss more attacks than it is to beef up the ones that he already has.

Looks like a valid point, haven't given them a run out yet so I can only say so much but it certainly makes sense 

So that give us Blade of Hammerhal Ghyra +1 attack, Rageblade +1 attack

[Skabnoze]

15 minutes ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

Thanks @Skabnoze that really clears it up for me, appreciate it

So it's a measure against whether it's worth taking +1 to an already good wound and hit roll or the chance to do +2 more damage on the off chance that wound/hit is a 6... not sure about the maths but I'm tempted to test them out

It is worth doing the math or just testing out with both weapons.  I think they would end up quite close to be honest.  But I am still pondering whether a full extra attack ends up being a bit better.

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

That's Realm of life for the first and Realm of beasts for second for those who like the theme their armies

Wow, 5 attacks, 3s and 3s, -2 rend and d6 damage standard - with reroll 1s when you command point it

[Skabnoze]

1 minute ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

Looks like a valid point, haven't given them a run out yet so I can only say so much but it certainly makes sense 

So that give us Blade of Hammerhal Ghyra +1 attack, Rageblade +1 attack

If you take the command ability where you can reroll the club damage for the Troggboss then I am almost certain that an extra attack will statistically end up being the best way to go (in terms of offense).  If you are planning to take a different command ability then Ghyrstrike might end up better - but I would need to stop being lazy and actually do the math.

And of course, there is always the option to take non-combat oriented items and that changes the discussion quite a bit.

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

I'd be interested in tanking him up a bit for a balance, how tanky has regen' been for people on its own? 

Maybe Loonskin to get reroll 4+ to regen' or DOUBLE to D3 roll if you don't need to reroll no matter where the moon is, or I'd that a water if you have the moon were you need it for the game?? Maybe just straight up Tough as Rocks for +2 Wounds

Edited February 1, 2019 by TeddyMadeMeDoIt

[Malakree]

12 minutes ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

Looks like a valid point, haven't given them a run out yet so I can only say so much but it certainly makes sense 

So that give us Blade of Hammerhal Ghyra +1 attack, Rageblade +1 attack

So there's two big damage options for a Troggboss General.

RageGrip
You take a +1 attack artefact with Pulverising Grip. This gives you 2 attacks with your grip attack and you get to reroll the dice. Against a 5 wound model this gives the following result on kills.

So you have  a 50% chance to instikill a 5 wound model or a 31% to kill 2.

MightyStrike
You take Mighty Blow with Ghyrstrike for 4 attacks at 2+/2+/-2/d6 rerolling the d6 damage.

 

For a Non-General Troggboss you're looking primarily at a defensive option rather than an offensive. This is in order to maximise it's durability and ability to hold objectives which require heroe's with artefacts of power. In this case the standard choices (Thermalrider, Ignix Scales, Miasmatic Blade etc.) are all still relevant with the additional option of Shiny Wotnot. The Shiny Wotnot boosts the already substantial magic resistance with the added benefit of potentially dispelling some especially nasty endless spells like the Everblaze Comet.

[Skabnoze]

5 minutes ago, Malakree said:

RageGrip
You take a +1 attack artefact with Pulverising Grip. This gives you 2 attacks with your grip attack and you get to reroll the dice. Against a 5 wound model this gives the following result on kills.

I was unaware that you could use additional attack items for the Crushing grip.  I assume this is possible because it is listed as a separate weapon - rather than similar abilities like on Giants which are special abilities and not specifically a separate weapon?

5 minutes ago, Malakree said:

MightyStrike
You take Mighty Blow with Ghyrstrike for 4 attacks at 2+/2+/-2/d6 rerolling the d6 damage.

Have we definitively determined that:

4 attacks at 2+/2+/-2/d6 rerolling the d6 damage & rerolling 1s to hit

is greater than:

5 attacks at 3+/3+/-2/d6 rerolling the d6 damage & rerolling 1s to hit

I honestly think this might end up simply being a personal preference thing as they are going to be very close.  And while we can pull averages, we are talking so few rolls for any specific combat that these are going to be relatively distinct events and less representative of averages.

[Skabnoze]

18 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So you have  a 50% chance to instikill a 5 wound model or a 31% to kill 2.

Isn't this an 80% chance to kill a single 5 wound model - or am I reading the graph wrong?

Just with one attack and a reroll you end up with 1/3 + (2/3 * 1/3) = ~0.55

Edited February 1, 2019 by Skabnoze

[Malakree]

7 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Have we definitively determined that:

4 attacks at 2+/2+/-2/d6 rerolling the d6 damage & rerolling 1s to hit

is greater than:

5 attacks at 3+/3+/-2/d6 rerolling the d6 damage & rerolling 1s to hit

I honestly think this might end up simply being a personal preference thing as they are going to be very close.  And while we can pull averages, we are talking so few rolls for any specific combat that these are going to be relatively distinct events and less representative of averages.

 4 attacks 2+/2+

 5 attacks at 3+/3+

Both with RR'1s at 1 damage each against no save.

This essentially shows you the chance of having a hit that gets through to the opponents save. As you can see the 4 with Ghyrstrike is significantly better than the 5 without.

EDIT: 

3 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Isn't this an 80% chance to kill a single 5 wound model - or am I reading the graph wrong?

Just with one attack and a reroll you end up with 1/3 + (2/3 * 1/3) = ~0.55

No, thats 2 attacks with a reroll on both.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Malakree

[Skabnoze]

4 minutes ago, Malakree said:

No, thats 2 attacks with a reroll on both.

I know that is what your chart represented - but your description of it seemed wrong.  A single attack with a reroll has a ~55% chance to kill a 5 wound model.  2 chances that each have a reroll should result in about 79.5%.

[Malakree]

33 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I know that is what your chart represented - but your description of it seemed wrong.  A single attack with a reroll has a ~55% chance to kill a 5 wound model.  2 chances that each have a reroll should result in about 79.5%.

Ok I'll do the maths rather than use Druchii.

One attack

To calculate whether an attack might kill a 5 wound model we know you need to roll a 5 or 6 on a d6, so a 1/3rd chance. We also have a reroll on this so we would need to fail both to NOT kill the target. Hence we calculate

(2/3)*(2/3) == 4/9 or giving you the 44.4% chance to not kill thus translating to a ~55% chance to get the kill. 

Two attacks

From there we calculate the odds of killing AT LEAST 1 model with 2 attacks both rerolling using the same method.

(4/9)*(4/9) = 16/81 or ~19.8% chance. This is consistent with the 20% chance for 0 kills thus giving us ~80% chance to kill AT LEAST one model.

Next we calculate the chances of killing exactly one model. That is either attack A kills and attack B fails or attack A fails and attack B kills.

A kills and B fails = (4/9)*(5/9) = 20/81 ~24.7%

The reverse is the same calculation so we combine the two in order to get the result of ~49.4% for EXACTLY one model killed.

 Obviously our final result is both kill their target. 

Both A and B kill = (5/9)*(5/9) = 25/81 ~31%

Results

20% chance for 0 kills
49% chance for exactly 1 kill
31% chance for exactly 2 kills.

 

 

[Skabnoze]

20 minutes ago, Malakree said:

 thus giving us ~80% chance to kill AT LEAST one model.

That is all I was asking.  The data was already on your chart and I ran the numbers also.  You just mentioned a 50% chance to kill a 5 wound model in the first post and the odds for that particular scenario is 80%.

I never questioned the validity of the numbers, just how you elaborated on that specific scenario.

But I guess the real question is how valuable is it to buff up the kill attack rather than the club attack.  Both seem like they would be useful in different circumstances, but it strikes me that beefing up the club is more universally useful.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Skabnoze

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Skabnoze said:

That is all I was asking.  The data was already on your chart and I ran the numbers also.  You just mentioned a 50% chance to kill a 5 wound model in the first post and the odds for that particular scenario is 80%.

I never questioned the validity of the numbers, just how you elaborated on that specific scenario.

Oh right, yeah I meant exactly 1 model. Sorry I didn't realise that was what you were asking about.

[Skabnoze]

1 minute ago, Malakree said:

Oh right, yeah I meant exactly 1 model. Sorry I didn't realise that was what you were asking about.

The more interesting question I think is which attack is better to build around generally.  My hunch is the club.  To get the most mileage from the kill attack you need to engage a fair amount of 3-5 wound models and still have club targets once you kill 1-2.  Otherwise you might as well just club smash everything.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

The more interesting question I think is which attack is better to build around generally.  My hunch is the club.  To get the most mileage from the kill attack you need to engage a fair amount of 3-5 wound models and still have club targets once you kill 1-2.  Otherwise you might as well just club smash everything.

Depends what you're facing. Things like Blightlords are absolute fodder for the RageGrip while against something like DoK you want the club. The Club is definitely more broadly useful imo.

[Skabnoze]

35 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Depends what you're facing. Things like Blightlords are absolute fodder for the RageGrip while against something like DoK you want the club. The Club is definitely more broadly useful imo.

If you can tailor for certain matches then the grip makes sense.  But for general purpose the club is probably the better all-round choice.

[Skabnoze]

So I have seen it mentioned that Mollog can be taken in a Trogg Herd battalion because he has the Dankhold and Troggoth keywords and the battalion mentions units of Dankhold Troggoths as one of the inclusions.  If this keyword interpretation is correct then that indicates that we can take a Bonegrinder Gargant in a Trogg Herd battalion since he has both the "Aleguzzler" and "Gargant" keywords and the battalion says 0-1 Aleguzzler Gargants.  The Bonegrinder also has the Gloomspite Gitz keyword so we can bring him without spending ally points.

If I am interpreting this correctly then that is kinda bonkers.  He is pretty much a humongous Stone Troll and I think he is a pretty fantastic unit.  He also has a ton of attacks and if he can indeed fit into the battalion he benefits from it more than many other units.

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

So I have seen it mentioned that Mollog can be taken in a Trogg Herd battalion because he has the Dankhold and Troggoth keywords and the battalion mentions units of Dankhold Troggoths as one of the inclusions.  If this keyword interpretation is correct then that indicates that we can take a Bonegrinder Gargant in a Trogg Herd battalion since he has both the "Aleguzzler" and "Gargant" keywords and the battalion says 0-1 Aleguzzler Gargants.  The Bonegrinder also has the Gloomspite Gitz keyword so we can bring him without spending ally points.

If I am interpreting this correctly then that is kinda bonkers.  He is pretty much a humongous Stone Troll and I think he is a pretty fantastic unit.  He also has a ton of attacks and if he can indeed fit into the battalion he benefits from it more than many other units.

No, the battalion doesn't have keyword bold in it which means it's only units with that exact name. Same as with ardboys and ironskullz.

[novakai]

3 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

So I have seen it mentioned that Mollog can be taken in a Trogg Herd battalion because he has the Dankhold and Troggoth keywords and the battalion mentions units of Dankhold Troggoths as one of the inclusions.  If this keyword interpretation is correct then that indicates that we can take a Bonegrinder Gargant in a Trogg Herd battalion since he has both the "Aleguzzler" and "Gargant" keywords and the battalion says 0-1 Aleguzzler Gargants.  The Bonegrinder also has the Gloomspite Gitz keyword so we can bring him without spending ally points.

If I am interpreting this correctly then that is kinda bonkers.  He is pretty much a humongous Stone Troll and I think he is a pretty fantastic unit.  He also has a ton of attacks and if he can indeed fit into the battalion he benefits from it more than many other units.

hmm wouldn't that also mean that The Hag can also be in the battalion because she has Fellwater and Troggoth keyword on her war scroll card