AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion

[Sinfullyvannila]

For rules with attacks that say "ignore the attack sequence" do 1s autofail?

This issue came up in a game today, I was using Crushing Grip, and my buddy was using a Warp Lightning cannon. I wasnt aware of tge warp lightning cannons rules, and my opponent rolled a 1 on it, and i didnt notice it. Then later I used crushing grip on his 1 wound battleline, so I told him I succeeded and when he brought up the Warp Lightning cannon I told him it also didnt autofail because it had the same wording. We decided to not remove the model for crushing grip and play as if it did fail for consistencies sake. I tried looking up a clarification on the internet but couldnt find it.

If anyone could point me to a ruling on it id appreciate it.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

38 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

For rules with attacks that say "ignore the attack sequence" do 1s autofail?

The rules seem pretty specific(see below) that the 1s always fail is specific to an attack sequence.  The Dankhold’ crushing grip specifically says do not use the attack sequence. You are not making a Hit, Wound or Save Roll.  So unless I am missing something (and I see no FAQ re:this for GG) the 1s always fail does not apply.  There are plenty of abilities that ignore the 1s always fail and 6s never succeed.  BCR’s grasp of the ever winter is exact opposite as 1s will always succeed (being always equal to or lower than the current round) and 6s always fail (given there are only 5 rounds in a normal battle and thus 6 will always be higher). Seems a case where the read as written is simple and clear and the read as intended seems to clearly offer you a risk/reward choice where you have a guarantee or high chance of killing a 1W or 2W model, which probably doesn’t swing the battle too much, versus a low chance of a high reward kill of a 5W or 6W hero.

Again, maybe I’m missing something as well but abilities frequently apply different dice rolling conventions than the attack sequence. 

 

[Sinfullyvannila]

Yeah I believe you are right. We were both operating under the cognitive error that "everything auto fails on one" but in actuality  the auto-fails on ones are exceptions that only happen in the rules that the topical rules specifically tell you not to use.

[Dankboss]

The Dankhold auto slays 1 wound models yes. Essentially it cannot fail.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

Here’s hoping new Troggoth can at least be ally.

But in looking over these new units thought of a new unit of Troggoths I want for Dankhold.

Trogs with giant frog like bellies and mouths using giant blow dart blowguns that are actually just hollow logs and the darts just primitive spears.  Skinks ain’t got nothing on that!

[dirkdragonslayer]

Now that Look Out Sir doesn't affect models with 10+ wounds it's going to be a bit rougher for the Troggboss. Heroic actions seem neat though. I like Finest Hour because it means the Troggboss can hit on 2s and get +1 to save. Our low bravery it means we only have a ~40% chance to get the Heroic Recovery off on a Dankhold for even more healing.

In funnier news, the change to Look out Sir means Mollog is going to be slightly more durable than a normal Troggboss to shooting since he still gets Look Out Sir. Mollog has 11 wounds (8 wounds and 3 minions to sacrifice) with a 3+ save due to Look Out Sir, while the Troggboss has 12 wounds with a 4+ save. If my math checks out, it's like effectively 18.15 wounds vs. 18 wounds against no rend shooting. Completely pointless, but fun to think about.

[Injuryprone]

With troggs not having any monsters (go away hag) will gargants, mega or otherwise, be worth it?

[Vasshpit]

I think that our dankhold / troggboss should get the monster keyword in light of these changes. 

[Tali182]

6 hours ago, Injuryprone said:

With troggs not having any monsters (go away hag) will gargants, mega or otherwise, be worth it?

I am thinking webspinner shaman on arachnarok

[Pitloze]

Hag probably won't even get point updates in 3.0. Which might actually her points finally feel fair.

[Orchid89]

14 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

I think that our dankhold / troggboss should get the monster keyword in light of these changes. 

I think so too, they are "monsters" in Warcry so it will most likely get updated in AoS 3 too

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

Still too early to tell but my Trog list still feels like my least vulnerable list to 3.0 changes.  Loss of battalion could create space for point increases without sacrificing too much.  Mainly running minimum size units except for one 6x Rockgut unit.  If Dankholds get MONSTER keyword have 3-4 units that can kick off those actions.  Lack of “champion” in Rockguts and Fellwaters concerning but not awful at moment.

Got a win out of the list (still with regular Dankhold as haven’t gotten around to building new Fellwaters to swap in, along with Balewind, for it) against Mawtribes in Shifting Objectives last night but it required a bit of luck.  In particular the Loonshrine returning 3/6 Rockguts at end of R1 after a fight against Mournfang and Stonehorn Beastriders didn’t go well, and then 2/3 of a different Rockgut unit at end of R3 allowing me to drop them onto an objective, setting up an advantage that would secure the win.  

That said this made up for the grand sum of the first three rounds of magic being… one arcane bolt.  I failed 1/2 of my casting rolls and my opponent was on point unbinding the rest.  So no Itchy Nuissance and no Hand of Gork help this game.

My opponent just dropped the Butcher’s Battalion to add more Ironguts to the mix and had 3x units of 2x Mournfang in their Eurlbad.  This meant I actually got to choose who went first and had them go.  They moved onto all three objectives, but only had battleline on two of them, setting themselves up for 6 initial VP.

I moved up my unit of 6x Rockguts and my Troggboss to challenge the Mournfang and Stonehorn Beastriders on the Eastern Objective.  I’d roll well with my Mangler Squigs positioning them to charge the Mournfang and Huskard in the West, supported by a unit of 3x Rockguts.  Both the flanks would make their charges but the Rockguts, Fellwaters and Dankhold in the middle would fail their charges.

The Loonboss, with Bite da Moon, would one shot the Huskard, putting in enough damage to get through the Stone Skeleton negations and the regular Mangler Squigs would take out the Mournfang.  This would allow me to score 2 VP in my first turn even after the fight in the East went poorly.  The Loonboss had activated the Ironguts though.  Positive is it pulled them off objective and that turn they could only get a couple of models in range.  

My opponent would win initiative though and the Ironguts would clear out both Manglers (though keeping them off both the West and Center objective).  A “Pillow Fight” would start in the East between my Troggboss & Loonshrine Rockguts and the Beastriders and Mournfang.  My Troggboss would sit at 1-3 wounds remaining through next 4 combat phases as would his Beastriders as we’d do enough damage to threaten to kill but not quite enough and then heal.

My opponent would score 3 VP, putting them at 9.  In my turn I’d also score 3 with the primary objective being the objective I held with Battleline in the West, where I’d clean off to random Frost Sabres.  I’d push into the Center objective but in R2 for the first time my regular Dankhold truly shined getting off his Crushing Grip to kill an Irongut, his Insects peeling off the last wound of another.  And then killing a third with his club.  He’d just survive my opponent’s counter attack taking 9 wounds and thus keeping them pinned off the objective.

I still couldn’t take Center or East so end of R2 I was losing 9-5.  My opponent won initiative again but Voracious Maw didn’t go off and they prioritized the fights on the objectives allowing my regular Dankhold to crush another Irongut and club a 2nd leaving only 1 from each unit around.  They’d score 3 more VP to go up 12-5.

In my turn I’d roll a 12 for my Western Rockguts to get them across the board to the fight in the Center objective.  A risk in losing the bonus VP in West but paid off when I finally took the Beastrider’s final wound in the East.  My fight in the center wouldn’t be as successful but in the Battleshock phase as mentioned those 2x Rockguts returned leaving me with 3x Rockgut, 2x Rockguts & 2x Fellwaters on the Center to his 2x Leadbelchers on and 1x Irongut off to side.  I still had 1 wound left on my Troggboss and both Shamans to his Butcher still up on the Balewind.  

So while points were still close when I finally won an initiative in R4 my opponent conceded.  Outside of magic probably rolled as well this game as I’d rolled poorly a couple games ago against Nurgle with Khorne Beast Brisket.  And vs my last Trogs vs Mawtribes (which I don’t think I posted because of lack of pictures) I did a much better job with my positioning, in particular making sure my Mangler Squigs traded up or even.

Trogs remain very fun to play and look forward to seeing what they can do in 3.0

[Lord Krungharr]

On 5/22/2021 at 10:55 PM, Sinfullyvannila said:

For rules with attacks that say "ignore the attack sequence" do 1s autofail?

This issue came up in a game today, I was using Crushing Grip, and my buddy was using a Warp Lightning cannon. I wasnt aware of tge warp lightning cannons rules, and my opponent rolled a 1 on it, and i didnt notice it. Then later I used crushing grip on his 1 wound battleline, so I told him I succeeded and when he brought up the Warp Lightning cannon I told him it also didnt autofail because it had the same wording. We decided to not remove the model for crushing grip and play as if it did fail for consistencies sake. I tried looking up a clarification on the internet but couldnt find it.

If anyone could point me to a ruling on it id appreciate it.

With the Skaven Lightning Cannon, the roll just determines the power of the attack and is not a hit, wound, or save roll.  If he had the battalion called Arkhspark Voltyk, 1 Cannon in the battalion can be chosen and subtract 1 from the power roll....so if he rolled a 2, that becomes a 1, and all 12 dice roll equal to or greater than 1, and thus 12 mortal wounds!  Not something any but Rockgut Troggoths can withstand.

But rats die to vomit very easily, besides straight-up squishing with big hands.

[Dankboss]

So with the new rules of 3.0, I'm considering if I still want to take Glogg's Megamob; without the battalion what it gives is a forced cp generation command trait, a forced 5+ mortal ward (both of which have better generic counterparts), +1 to regen roles which are mostly meh, and the 4+ spell ward which is the best part of that's left.

Going back to generic allegiance still lets you use the Loonshrine, and gives you access back to command traits and artefacts. I'm tempted to return to Battle Troggboss with the new rules, as this edition you can get more CP which reduces the need for the 4+ generation.

Universal access to +1 to hit makes a massive difference, 6 rockguts hitting on 2s is scary as hell. It'll mostly be used instead of the Boss' reroll 1s unless i have lots of units fighting.

I will likely go +2 wounds and Amulet of Destiny for my Battle Troggboss. Support Troggboss is a bit boring. Finest Moment gives him +1 save and +1 to wound, coupled with +1 to hit will let him return to his old glory. Also, easy access to +1 save is important.

An alternative Battle Troggboss is Reroll damage dice trait and Manticore Venom or whatever it's called for +1 to wound.

[Orchid89]

Do you guys think Rockgut Troggs will get a Wound increase up to 5? It would be nice if they counted as 2 for objectives.

[Dankboss]

23 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

Do you guys think Rockgut Troggs will get a Wound increase up to 5? It would be nice if they counted as 2 for objectives.

If the rumor that gitz are getting a new book soon after 3.0 is true then I'm fairly certain they will; the reprinted Glogg's Megamob and loonshrine rules specify troggoths of 5 wounds or less. This makes me think they will, and that the loonshrine will function the same. GW are lazy when they can get away with it, and much like Slaanesh, Gravelords and BR Kragnos, they were printed with 3.0 rules/ points because GW had the material to hand, so they used what they had knowing 3.0 was coming anyway.

I hear a lot of people saying GW printing 3.0 points in the latest 2.0 battletomes doesn't make sense but it really does.

[Sinfullyvannila]

On 6/14/2021 at 5:39 AM, Orchid89 said:

Do you guys think Rockgut Troggs will get a Wound increase up to 5? It would be nice if they counted as 2 for objectives.

Itd be nice for us but I dont think they really need it. Everyone is going to be running low enough number that 6 rockguts shouldnt have issues shifting.

[novakai]

Big Trogg Brain move

cast metamorphosis on the Dankhold troggboss to gain Monster keyword for a turn

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Itd be nice for us but I dont think they really need it. Everyone is going to be running low enough number that 6 rockguts shouldnt have issues shifting.

Also the new pile in rules combined with the rockguts attack range is super sweet for them. Makes coherency meaningless to 6 rockguts.

[novakai]

i think 6 Rockguts (or Fellwater) with All out attack (+1 to hit) is very killer, I probably use that ability more time over then the Troggboss's CA  to reroll one aura since you can't use both at the same time. it just depends on how many hero i have that can issue that command since Trogg units can't do it themselves.

[Injuryprone]

Maybe run Mollog, a wardokk, or mass fungoids to throw out CAs.

[dirkdragonslayer]

2 hours ago, Injuryprone said:

Maybe run Mollog, a wardokk, or mass fungoids to throw out CAs.

Mollog is a named character, can he even throw out Command Abilities?

If he can I would love it though, he's our precious baby boy.

[PlasticCraic]

7 hours ago, novakai said:

 that can issue that command since Trogg units can't do it themselves.

That's another change I'd love to see - a unit champ (or just a Warscroll ability to issue CAs).

[Tali182]

13 hours ago, novakai said:

Big Trogg Brain move

cast metamorphosis on the Dankhold troggboss to gain Monster keyword for a turn

I still hope we won't need to and the day 1 FAQ adds monster or at least we wont have to do it for long as more likely if happens it will be in a new new battletome (which apparently is one of the first)

[Tali182]

On 6/14/2021 at 5:34 PM, Dankboss said:

So with the new rules of 3.0, I'm considering if I still want to take Glogg's Megamob; without the battalion what it gives is a forced cp generation command trait, a forced 5+ mortal ward (both of which have better generic counterparts), +1 to regen roles which are mostly meh, and the 4+ spell ward which is the best part of that's left.

Going back to generic allegiance still lets you use the Loonshrine, and gives you access back to command traits and artefacts. I'm tempted to return to Battle Troggboss with the new rules, as this edition you can get more CP which reduces the need for the 4+ generation.

Universal access to +1 to hit makes a massive difference, 6 rockguts hitting on 2s is scary as hell. It'll mostly be used instead of the Boss' reroll 1s unless i have lots of units fighting.

I will likely go +2 wounds and Amulet of Destiny for my Battle Troggboss. Support Troggboss is a bit boring. Finest Moment gives him +1 save and +1 to wound, coupled with +1 to hit will let him return to his old glory. Also, easy access to +1 save is important.

An alternative Battle Troggboss is Reroll damage dice trait and Manticore Venom or whatever it's called for +1 to wound.

Its good to have choices I guess, 

If what I hear is true all current saves that are versions of wards will become the new ward so the hide will be the same as the amulet, but we will see if that is correct