AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion

[Malakree]

6 hours ago, broche said:

Yeah i'll see if i can paint something before the end of the league. I know it's not fantastic, at least it's keeping my drop relativly low

If the answer is no then that's perfectly reasonable  

[Deadkitten]

Do people find they get enough board coverage with the Rockguts @ one unit of 6 instead of two at 3?  Is that 1 unit of 6 more like a hammer or an anvil?

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Deadkitten

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Two units of 6 Rockguts is ideal for a 2k list

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Deadkitten said:

Do people find they get enough board coverage with the Rockguts @ one unit of 6 instead of two at 3?  Is that 1 unit of 6 more like a hammer or an anvil?

 

Fellwaters

• If you want board coverage take 2 units of 3 fellwaters. 
• They are reliable in 3s due to their 12 attacks.
• Against a 4+ save, with no rerolls for anyone, they will reliably melee for 6-10 damage.
• Three shooting attacks are horrific against small skirmish type units of equivalent points.
• Against a 4+ save, with no rerolls for anyone, they will reliably do 2-4 damage.
• -1 to hit, with 4 wounds and regen makes them horrific for small units to deal with.
• In a straight up fight with no support they kill basically everything on their points value.
• They depreciate linearly as they lose models due to their reliability and the fact they don't care about unit size.

Rockguts

• Are mediocre in 3s.
• Unreliable due to their small number of hard hitting attacks.
• Against a 4+ save, no RRs, they should reliably do 3-9 damage.
• The shooting attack is very low damage when used against a skirmish unit.
• Rock Throw will do 0-2 damage.
• The 5++ save with 4 and regen makes them about as tanky as Fellwaters against skirmish type units.
• In a straight up fight it's 50/50 for them to wipe equivalent units or do nothing.
• They depreciate exponentially due to their unreliability and dependence on unit size.

Usage

1. Fellwaters in 3s excel in unsupported skirmish situations
2. Fellwaters in 6s are reasonable but suffer against focused fire from shooting/mortal wounds. They still don't need support.
3. Rockguts desperately need the RR1's support and are are very hit or miss in 3s.
4. Rockguts in 6s still need supporting but are absolutely devastating against everything, can snipe support heroes and the 5++ makes them tanky vs shooting/MW

End result is that you take fellwaters as small unit size skirmishers for taking out of the way objectives and fighting your oppnents skirmishers. Rockguts on the other hand are your massive hammers who want to be in the middle of your line where they can be easily supported and focus fire down enemy support heroes.

To give an example list.

Quote

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (270)
- General
-Artefact: Ignix Scales
-Trait: Loonskin
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)

Battleline
20 x Stabbas (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields

Units
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (150)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (150)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 160

You have the Stabbas for zoning, screening and holding backline objectives.
Two blocks of fellwaters function as your flanking forces. They are reasonably fast, pretty tanky and will kill Skirmishers, Light Cav and Medium Cav. Also a threat to small units of Heavy Cav, even bloodknights on the charge aren't guarenteed to wipe the unit and if they don't attack first are going to suffer some solid damage. Blood Knights who are 50 points more expensive than the fellwaters.

Your dankhold is built to be a ****** to kill making your support block hard to snipe out. A 12 wound hero with lookout sir, a 4+ save and a 4++ vs mortals is hell to kill BEFORE you consider his regen.

Finally your 4 blocks of 6 rockguts are terrifying. It's 96 wounds with a 5++ after save, any character who comes within 12" of all 4 units is taking a MINIMUM of 4 mortal wounds. Each individual unit has an expected damage output of 15/18 against a 4+ save, that kills most monsters without batting an eye, and you are rolling 4 blocks of them down the centre of the board.

Hopefully this gives you a solid perspective on why we(I) generally say fellwaters in 3s and rockguts in 6+. 

[broche]

22 hours ago, Malakree said:

If the answer is no then that's perfectly reasonable

I've Zarbag and cie I could include. I think i might just forfeit turn choice and go for high drop. You're right that bataillion isn't really good, and I could use the cheap screen and extra wizard.

[Deadkitten]

On 8/25/2019 at 12:34 PM, Malakree said:

 

Hopefully this gives you a solid perspective on why we(I) generally say fellwaters in 3s and rockguts in 6+. 

You're not running the Hag. Do you not think she pulls her weight?  You've got a lot of Troggs on the table which I appreciate.  

[Malakree]

51 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

You're not running the Hag. Do you not think she pulls her weight?  You've got a lot of Troggs on the table which I appreciate.  

So my stance on her is that she's amazing, unfortunately she's an expensive support hero/monster in an army which is already running elite expensive infantry. 

Hilarious quote.

On 8/3/2019 at 11:06 AM, Malakithe said:

I love how @Malakree measures the value of everything in Rockguts. Its like a new currency

Basically this, if you're running grots to boost your body and wound count then she's fantastic. Give her a Gryphfeather Charm, stick some nettas around her, watch as the opponent tries to deal with 16 wounds, regenerating d3 and -3 to hit.

If you're not running the Troggs you're tanking her synergy and crippling your body/wound count. 9 Rockguts is 420 points, a Hag is 380 points. 

Ask yourself, would you rather have a Hag and 1 cp or a unit of 9 Rockguts.

EDIT: Also remember, they are over double the wounds, have a 5++ after save, are 8 extra bodies AND are going to hit way way harder.

This is the Hags expected damage vs the Rockguts expected damage against a 4+ RR1's save.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Malakree

[Oreaper84]

i dont think you run the Hag as a damage dealer, she is support, a tarpit and absolute beast-mode in the scenarios where you need heroes. I agree that rockguts are much better offensively, but i think they serve very different rolls. The above mentioned list will have a lot of difficulty in places of power, duality, and potentially the orb. 

[Malakree]

17 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

i dont think you run the Hag as a damage dealer, she is support, a tarpit and absolute beast-mode in the scenarios where you need heroes. I agree that rockguts are much better offensively, but i think they serve very different rolls. The above mentioned list will have a lot of difficulty in places of power, duality, and potentially the orb. 

They will be fine on Duality of death because all the trolls are battleline and can hold the point.
Relocation Orb just treats wizards/artefacts as 20 if they are within 3" so you just kill it.

My point wasn't that she was bad. It was that in Pure Troggoth armies fielding her cuts down on both total wounds and total models, something the army is already desperately short on.

Compare it to this list 

Quote

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (270)
Troggoth Hag (380)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)

Battleline
20 x Stabbas (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields

Units
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 148
 

Which has dropped 12 wounds, 6 Rockguts and a Fungoid in order to field her. That's a very hefty price to pay for a support hero, who has no MW save and is now the only monster in the army making her an absolute prime target for a whole bunch of stuff. You're now paying over 1/3rd of your points for 3 support heroes

[Deadkitten]

12 hours ago, Malakree said:

That's a very hefty price to pay for a support hero, who has no MW save and is now the only monster in the army making her an absolute prime target for a whole bunch of stuff. You're now paying over 1/3rd of your points for 3 support heroes

For many armies, I keep looking for the line between "valuable support option" and "Win more than I would have otherwise".  Just need to start getting reps in.  My first purchase is on the way and will be proxying up a game next week!

 

[Malakree]

5 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

For many armies, I keep looking for the line between "valuable support option" and "Win more than I would have otherwise".  Just need to start getting reps in.  My first purchase is on the way and will be proxying up a game next week!

Yeah it's not that she's terrible. Just that she doesn't fit in a pure Trogg army, throw in some grots instead of going pure and she very quickly becomes amazing.

Quote

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (270)
Troggoth Hag (380)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)

Battleline
40 x Stabbas (260)
- Stabbas & Moon Shields
20 x Stabbas (130)
- Stabbas & Moon Shields

Units
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (280)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (150)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (150)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 164

This takes offsets her drawbacks my adding grots to boost your wounds/bodies on the board, moreover the Netters synergize amazingly with her.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Malakree

[MirelurkCakes]

So if we were to include one unit of grots for screening/objective holding which would be better and why, shootas or stabbas?

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, MirelurkCakes said:

So if we were to include one unit of grots for screening/objective holding which would be better and why, shootas or stabbas?

A unit of 60 stabbas.
You want the unit to tarpit for your troggs to operate around and the shields giving +1 to save is a massive increase.

For a Min-Size unit it's much of a muchness tbh.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Malakree

[broche]

What trait do you guys usually take with Troggboss? I'm tending toward Loonkin but I'm unsure if I'll need those extra command (I guess it's 1-2 extra command at best). Might as well go for Tough as rock

[PlasticCraic]

When I run Troggs I usually take the classic Mighty Blow / Ghyrstrike combo.  With a side order of Fungoid for the CP generation.

[broche]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

When I run Troggs I usually take the classic Mighty Blow / Ghyrstrike combo.  With a side order of Fungoid for the CP generation

I was  planning to take the thermalrider cloak. Are you finding  the 6''  no fly to be enough? I guess I would like to use his command ability most of the time, so that already 1-2 CP per turn, but beside that it would be mostly the generic command (which are never bad). 

How much damage is ghyrstrike + migthy blow like twelve or something?

[PlasticCraic]

I'm not sure about the maths, but I find I do a little bit more than that, more like 15 maybe.  It's obviously very spiky, even with the rerolls....you hope to get all 4 dice through, often it's 3, and if you only get 2, you're cursing!

As for the movement, I do find that if I run him Turn 1, he's usually in combat by Turn 2.  You will get shot off sometimes, that's just a fact of life unfortunately.  It does help that he doesn't chart at all (full output until he's dead), and can get cover saves on his way in (no Monster keyword).  So in practice I do usually get at least a turn of output from him.

Using Hand of Gork to give your opponent a clear and present threat also helps while you move him up the board.  I like using Hand on the Hag, because she can teleport straight into range for her shooting and spell, and usually tank a turn unsupported.  

Honestly he rarely earns his points back.  I have one-shotted Stardrakes with him before, but more often he kills about 15 Plague Monks and then gets murdered.  But that's #TroggLyf!

Edited September 5, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[broche]

Ok did the math and it's around 13.33 average with the rr1. Close to double his base output, so not bad at all. 

I'll have to try for myself  I guess! cool thing with the league is that we can change list (inside Allegiance) between game, so I can alway reajust.

[Malakree]

8 hours ago, broche said:

Ok did the math and it's around 13.33 average with the rr1. Close to double his base output, so not bad at all. 

I'll have to try for myself  I guess! cool thing with the league is that we can change list (inside Allegiance) between game, so I can alway reajust.

If you can prep for each game then I'd go with loonskin + spell save on 6+ if your opponent is skaven (with vortex) and/or uses a ton of endless spells.

Loonskin + ignix vs heavy ranged mw. 

Loonskin + gryphfeather against shooting heavy.

Loonskin + aetherquartz in hysh vs combat phase fuckery.

Ghyrstrike + mighty blow vs everything else.

[broche]

In fact i like Gryphfeather. Still give me the extra 1'' move and combined with geminid,  the -2 to hit can cripple a lot of top army.

[Batch]

Rawr, havent posted any dudes in a while.

Have a hag

[Sauriv]

Hi, took my troggs for a spin for the first time ever today (just 1000p) . We needed to round up early so it was hard to say who would win. Anyway, as much as i would love a pure trogg-list I do understand the need of more bodies on the table.

Many of the posts i see here talks about having a big unit of stabbas but what are your thoughts regarding squigs as screens/objective grabbers/tarpit? 

[PlasticCraic]

In order:

Screens: Stabbas are better because although they're a similar cost per wound, Stabbas are way cheaper per base.   You can cover way more area with Stabbas, unit for unit.  Although a larger than minimum unit of Squigs can do this if needed.

Objective Grabbers: Squigs are possibly slightly better.  Both are on 25mm bases.  Both have good bonuses for running onto objectives (Grots +2", Squigs reroll the run).  Grots have more sheer bodies, but if we're talking a large unit of Squigs, that should be plenty of bases within 6" anyway. 

Where Squigs might arguably edge it slightly is that they can run and charge under Da Bad Moon (rerolling both), and reroll failed charges (so you can Hand of Gork them 9" away from a lightly-guarded objective and have a coin flip chance at making the charge).

Tarpit: Grots are way better in this aspect.  Points per wound there's not much in it. but where the Grots become superior in a grind is their Nettas for -1 to hit (that already gives them daylight).  Also their bravery is less comically bad.  A big unit of Grots will stick around way more dependably.

What's more, Stabbas can resurrect through the Loonshrine.  That's more bodies to steal objectives late game.  

So for the role they are playing in your army, I think Stabbas are better overall.  I do like Squigs as a 3rd or 4th unit of bodies when you already have some Stabbas in there (so I like them in a Moonclan build); if you're only putting 1 or 2 units into a Troggoth army, I think Stabbas will give you more of what you want.

Edited September 12, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[Scythian]

Decided to make a little 1k troggoth army. 

 

[Scythian]

My 2k Trogg list