AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion

[Thenord]

Wow that's some serious analysis @Malakree. Thanks man! 

This really gives me stuff to think about. Didn't realice the batallion was that bad, but ofc more bodies is Better in an elite army ☺️

I really like your second list. Fits the troll theme and still as close to optimal as can be it seems 🙂

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Thenord said:

Wow that's some serious analysis @Malakree. Thanks man! 

This really gives me stuff to think about. Didn't realice the batallion was that bad, but ofc more bodies is Better in an elite army ☺️

I really like your second list. Fits the troll theme and still as close to optimal as can be it seems 🙂

Yeah, it's got some serious limiting factors which normally would be weighed against the artefact, reduced drop count and cp. The issue is that the cost is so extortionate that it eclipses all the positives.

I've seen a fair few troggherd lists kicking around and they always seem to follow the theme you initially went for. Hag, some magic, the battalion and it just leaves you chronically short on wounds.

Honestly pure trogg lists are majority thematic which is important to remember when you're building one so don't worry to much about it fighting DoK etc. It's also worth noting that since rockguts have a 5++ their 24 wounds is closer to 36 effective wounds. Your primary problem is battleshock which is why I think loonskin is going to be so key.

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

I think loonskin is going to be so key.

Speaking of Loonskin,  what is the general consensus on how it works.  Does it work when the Bad Moon is off the board at the start of play, or only when it is actually in play.  It only says it doesn't when the Bad Moon is Removed from play, but not sure about at the start.  Does Loonskin over-ride the Bad Moon rules, which says that no models are affected when it is at the edge of the battlefield.  It hasn't been addressed in the FAQ as far as I can see. 

Apologies if this has been answered on a previous page.

[Thenord]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

Yeah, it's got some serious limiting factors which normally would be weighed against the artefact, reduced drop count and cp. The issue is that the cost is so extortionate that it eclipses all the positives.

I've seen a fair few troggherd lists kicking around and they always seem to follow the theme you initially went for. Hag, some magic, the battalion and it just leaves you chronically short on wounds.

Honestly pure trogg lists are majority thematic which is important to remember when you're building one so don't worry to much about it fighting DoK etc. It's also worth noting that since rockguts have a 5++ their 24 wounds is closer to 36 effective wounds. Your primary problem is battleshock which is why I think loonskin is going to be so key.

Yeah it seems the low drop count and extra artefct isn't that big of a deal with trolls. 

Stupid question, why will loonskin be so key, because of cp for inspiring pressence or? 

Also, since I know we both play ironjawz. How do you think pure trolls fair compared to ironjawz (without 2 batallions and aether Broch) 🙂

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

My list that I played with the other day. Smashed Slaves to Darkness twice before the 3rd turn was up.

 

-Dankhold Troggboss: 300 General

 Tough as Rocks +2 wounds Blade of Hammerhal-Ghyra +1 attack on fist. (may change)

-Madcap Shaman: 80

            Itchy Nuisance/ Moonface Mommet

-Fungoid Cave Shaman: 90

            Hand of Gork

-6 Rockgut Troggoths: 320

-6 Rockgut Troggoths: 320

-3 Fellwater Troggoths: 160

-3 Fellwater Troggoths: 160

-20 Stabbas: 130

-Dankhold Troggoth: 220

 

-Troggherd: 180

 

When GHB drops I'm certain i can get Skrapskuttle's in there too and probably more. Usually I find games get split down the flanks so the Dankhold's bravery buff actually came into play as half the army had to split from the boss. I found him a nice support model, and a big tanky threat when in cover. Paired well with the fellwaters and grots.

[blubearbare]

played a couple round using mostly troggoths and like most people are saying the amount of bodies lacking is noticeable. Here is an updated to a Themed troggoth army that has some big punches but also has some bodies to camp objectives and such. Can I get some feedback if possible.

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Trait: Tough as Rocks
- Artefact: Glowy Howzit
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork

Battleline
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (320)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (320)

Units
24 x Squig Herd (280)
24 x Squig Herd (280)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 188

The idea is to have the felwaters stick around the squig herds to give them the extra punch they need to kill whatever decides to go after them while the 2 death star units of rockguts run around and kill stuff taking objectives. The troggboss stays in the middle supporting where he's needed but only attacking things he can win, trying not to get bogged down. The shamans are there to hopefully generate CP and cast their spells.  

[blubearbare]

Update to this list one of the fungoid shamans will have itchy nuisance 

[Thenord]

Uuuuuh, I like! That's actually a really cool theme, and properbly more effective than pure trolls. 

Maybe I'd drop one fungoid and a squig unit for 6 more rockguts and an extra CP.. but yours is properbly more effective.

[Malakree]

23 hours ago, Thenord said:

Yeah it seems the low drop count and extra artefct isn't that big of a deal with trolls. 

Stupid question, why will loonskin be so key, because of cp for inspiring pressence or? 

Also, since I know we both play ironjawz. How do you think pure trolls fair compared to ironjawz (without 2 batallions and aether Broch) 🙂

Loonskin is key because you want to be using the troggboss CA and have spare CP for key inspiring presences. Since you don't have a fungoid in that list you need to build cps fast and early so that when it really kicks off you have float.

So if you're after tanking objectives with a mass of ardboys then IJ are better. If you want to win any form of combat then trolls are better. The only IJ list which can outfight troggs is a waaagh! Bomb list but those die the moment your opponent has a half decent screen and outside of the bomb they suck.

Personally I could probably do better with IJ (If I had the models) than a troggherd but if you add 120 grots to the list then the Grot+ out performs in every area.

22 hours ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

When GHB drops I'm certain i can get Skrapskuttle's in there too and probably more. Usually I find games get split down the flanks so the Dankhold's bravery buff actually came into play as half the army had to split from the boss. I found him a nice support model, and a big tanky threat when in cover. Paired well with the fellwaters and grots.

Personally I'm hoping for a big enough points drop that 2 troggbosses will fit in a list. Drop the dankhold in yours then take mollog, 50 points cheaper, brings the same buffs, is a hero and has way better support buffs.

1 hour ago, Thenord said:

Uuuuuh, I like! That's actually a really cool theme, and properbly more effective than pure trolls. 

Maybe I'd drop one fungoid and a squig unit for 6 more rockguts and an extra CP.. but yours is properbly more effective.

@blubearbare drop one of the fellwaters and make the 2 squig blocks into 60 stabbas each.

[Calebexnihilo]

Yeah, I've only gotten a handful of Trogg games in... But CP was vital to success. Used alot on Inspiring Presence and some on getting rerolls of 1s for key melee troll units.

I favor Loonskin for the extra CP.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Calebexnihilo

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Personally I'm hoping for a big enough points drop that 2 troggbosses will fit in a list. Drop the dankhold in yours then take mollog, 50 points cheaper, brings the same buffs, is a hero and has way better support buffs.

You make it seem like I'm building a tournament list. I have a painted Dankhold and it's not exactly a stab in the foot to take one, after all it's not a giant. I like their ability to pick out certain models from groups, or prevent stringing models out. He also fits in the Troggherd.

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

You make it seem like I'm building a tournament list. I have a painted Dankhold and it's not exactly a stab in the foot to take one, after all it's not a giant. I like their ability to pick out certain models from groups, or prevent stringing models out. He also fits in the Troggherd.

Honestly everything I say needs to be prefaced with. "This is a potentially more optimal way to do it" because that's the only way I can think.

I can fully accept thematic lists are a thing. I have a second dankhold waiting in the queue to be painted because of how much I love the new trogg kits.

On 6/2/2019 at 3:04 PM, Malakree said:

Honestly pure trogg lists are majority thematic which is important to remember when you're building one so don't worry to much about it fighting DoK etc...

So yeah. Do try mollog though, it sounds like he would be a perfect fit for that role and I really liked him when I used him.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Despite their simplicity, a Troggherd army will take a lot of skill to do well with; in fact I'd argue it's because of this that they're hard to play with. Not to say they can't be strong, as anything getting hit by 6 buffed Rockguts will die or be left crippled on the floor. After all, this is Age of Sigmar where you can literally take any army and do well with it so long as you know it extremely well; the ruleset allows for underdogs to take out the meta armies, and often. Skill is a huge factor most of the time, although the only thing I can think of that doesn't count is Gristlegore as that's rather brain-dead imo.

Except vs Nighthaunt I just don't see how Trolls can fight that as they're the perfect counter.

I see too many battle reports where the Troll player has no idea what they're doing and just throws minimum unit sizes into the midfield and doesn't protect their boss. They're also 100% trolls which I think is a mistake; I think you need to at least have 20 stabbas and a Fungoid.

If you know what you're doing, Trolls will do just fine. In fact twice now they've ended the game on turn 3, which my Freeguild can't do.

 

[Calebexnihilo]

So.... Looks like our Gargants would be better as mercs than in Troggherd! Lol.

Bring 3 and they are Rerolling all hits!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/10/the-generals-handbook-2019-mercenary-companiesgw-homepage-post-2/

[Malakree]

36 minutes ago, Calebexnihilo said:

So.... Looks like our Gargants would be better as mercs than in Troggherd! Lol.

Bring 3 and they are Rerolling all hits!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/10/the-generals-handbook-2019-mercenary-companiesgw-homepage-post-2/

And they'll still be garbage 🤣

I wonder if we can merc in 3 then put 2 in a troggherd...🤔

[novakai]

I did notice though that to fit 3 Gargants within the 400 ally points limit they would have to be pointed at 130 to fit them all in. (point decrease maybe)

since Gargant has the Gloomspite Keywords it, not an issue for this army, for others it would need to be cheaper to function at maximum.

of course, this is more of a narrative thing so general rules may not be in effect here

46 minutes ago, Malakree said:

And they'll still be garbage 🤣

I wonder if we can merc in 3 then put 2 in a troggherd...🤔

idk but since they would still have the relevant Keyword Aleguzzler, Gargant, and Gloomspite Gitz with just the Mercenary tag on(which just mean we lose a CP on the first turn), I think it would work. Unless mercenary companies function like separate battalions which I don't think they do.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

I did notice though that to fit 3 Gargants within the 400 ally points limit they would have to be pointed at 130 to fit them all in. (point decrease maybe)

You're probably spot on there. Would they even be worth taking at 130 points each?  I can't help feeling that 100 would be more appropriate, a Gargant or 5 Boingrots...actually a hard question. Depending on if you have to pay points to get the merc company, like a battalion, then that would actually put them in the right points bracket!

[PlasticCraic]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

Depending on if you have to pay points to get the merc company, like a battalion, then that would actually put them in the right points bracket!

They've mentioned a few times that the cost is no CP generated round 1.  They haven't explicitly stated that you don't pay anything else, but I'd be surprised if that were the case given the communication so far. 

I would also have expected any other costs to be introduced with the Forbidden Power mercenaries that we already have, when the no-CP thing was introduced.  So based on what we know, it's fair to expect no explicit points cost.

If you want a CP turn 1, you have to start 50 points down, so you could argue that this is the cost - it's essentially a 50-point Batallion which comes with a Batallion bonus, but doesn't come with an artefact or reduced drops.  Which kind of makes sense, since that was the kind of points range that the old Batallions were in under the first GH, and GW explicitly acknowledged that Batallions were underpointed at that time because they hadn't really taken into account the impact of the artefact and reduced drops.

[Melcar]

So I'm coming in maybe too abruptly, but can this army win against anything? When looking at the very few abilities, no summon, to costly models, etc., I kind on wonder, could we win a 2k game against Ironjaws? And what about Disspossesed, or Freepeoples? The army seems beyond weak at this point.

Now I understand that the army is cool, and not competitive, so that's not why you buy it, but seriously can any games be won? I'm not talking about taking on DoK, FEC, Skaven or Slaaneth, but other low tier armies... can we even take that?

I'm all for rule of cool, but I want a fighting chance at least.... Like if you had to go head to head with Slaaneth how many extra points would we need 500 extra, 1k extra?


PS: Here's me hoping for 25% point cost reduction in GHB19!

Edited June 12, 2019 by Melcar

[ShaneHobbes]

Just now, Melcar said:

So I'm coming in maybe too abruptly, but can this army win against anything? When looking at the very few abilities, no summon, to costly models, etc., I kind on wonder, could we win a 2k game against Ironjaws? And what about Disspossesed, or Freepeoples? The army seems beyond weak at this point.

Now I understand that the army is cool, and not competitive, so that's not why you buy it, but seriously can any games be won? I'm not talking about taking on DoK, FEC, Skaven or Slaaneth, but other low tier armies... can we even take that?

I'm all for rule of cool, but I want a fighting chance at least.... Like how many extra points would we need to lets say go head to head with Slaaneth? 500 extra, 1k extra?
 

I got second place in a local tournament, went 2-1 and I made a couple of stupid mistakes in the loss that I've been mentally berating myself about. 

Lost to Nurgle

Won against DoK and Seraphon

I've also beaten slaanesh and skaven in non tournaments.  Maybe my opponents aren't good or I've just been getting lucky but I have been winning more often than not.

[Calebexnihilo]

Trolls are decent, not anywhere close to top teir... But they can hold their own in mid teir matchups.

They hit incredibly hard. Decent survivability. Good spells. Some teleporting with Hand of Gork. Can force an AGKoTG to fight last with Itchy Nuisance. 

I recently beat SCE and took FEC with 4 TGs down to the final round.

If they drastically reduce Troggherd price and maybe drop DankBoss or trolls 10-20 points, we will be in a good spot.

[cranect]

Actually against trolls ironjawz would be useful. With how many wounds everything is brutes actually put in a lot of work. I have a feeling they would do well against trolls. That being said I have had some good games vs nighthaunts.

[ShaneHobbes]

I'm absolutely in love with Rockguts. The models themselves and their warscroll.  They are my MVPs everygame. The only grots I bring are fungoids, and skagrott if it's a 2500 game.

I've been playing around with Rockguts in either groups of 6 or 9 or a bunch of them in min size units of 3 for more board control and I think I prefer the latter.

Yeah you lose out in automatic rock throw but you get a lot more rock throws to maybe make up for it plus battleshock is less painful. 

[Melcar]

13 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

I got second place in a local tournament, went 2-1 and I made a couple of stupid mistakes in the loss that I've been mentally berating myself about. 

Lost to Nurgle

Won against DoK and Seraphon

I've also beaten slaanesh and skaven in non tournaments.  Maybe my opponents aren't good or I've just been getting lucky but I have been winning more often than not.

 

13 minutes ago, Calebexnihilo said:

Trolls are decent, not anywhere close to top teir... But they can hold their own in mid teir matchups.

They hit incredibly hard. Decent survivability. Good spells. Some teleporting with Hand of Gork. Can force an AGKoTG to fight last with Itchy Nuisance. 

I recently beat SCE and took FEC with 4 TGs down to the final round.

If they drastically reduce Troggherd price and maybe drop DankBoss or trolls 10-20 points, we will be in a good spot.

May I ask what lists you guys used? I have a hard time imagining what they can do, and the list I have in mind might be really poor, but its cool! Again the coolness factor is important, but some chance is a must for me to get into the army.

[ShaneHobbes]

2 minutes ago, Melcar said:

 

May I ask what lists you guys used? I have a hard time imagining what they can do, and the list I have in mind might be really poor, but its cool! Again the coolness factor is important, but some chance is a must for me to get into the army.

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Trait: Loonskin 
- Artefact: Glowy Howzit 
Troggoth Hag (380)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork
Skragrott, The Loonking (220)
- Lore of the Moonclans: Call da Moon

Battleline
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
6 x Rockgut Troggoths (320)
9 x Rockgut Troggoths (480)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)

Battalions
Troggherd (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain
Scrapskuttle's Arachnacauldron (50)

Total: 2500 / 2500
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 500
Wounds: 134
 

I dont normally take Troggherd or Troggoth Hag but for a 2500 pt game I figured why not. Skagrott too is a beast with his casting ability and Call Da Moon and Nikkit Nikkit are great hero snipers.

My Hag did great work too especially with Grpyh char. I'd have her summon the cauldron which is just perfect for her and run into a mass of enemies who would be -2 to hit her while my rockguts cleaned up. 

Is was mostly an experimental list and it did much better than I expected.