AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion

[EMMachine]

I think I will Start with a small 1000 point list. Sadly it seems that the Sourbreath Troggoths are out of action (6 of my existing models).

My thought is

A 300 Dankhold Troggboss

220 Dankhold Troggoth

2x 160 Fellwater (3 of them) 

1x 160 Rockgut (3 of them)

This should be 1000 points.

Mollog is sadly a narrative NoGo for me because he is a named Character.

[Jupiter]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

As a side note, the Battalion only applies to melee attacks so the fellwater puke wouldn't get the buff.

Man I really want to like the Troggherd but it's just mediocre, especially when you start stacking Dankholds in it, they do massive damage with a small number of attacks. On the other hand if you go for mainly Fellwater Troggoths it might actually start to pay it's way just because of the number of attacks you can throw out. Sadly due to Rockguts only having 2 attacks each they get half the effectiveness from the Troggherd while a Dankhold gets 1/3rd the output.

 An expected output of 1.57 damage per unit per attack when averaged overtime.
That's the number of extra damage per 3 Fellwater you can expect to get against a 6+ or no save from the battalion.

 1 damage/unit/attack.
This is the same 3 Fellwater against a 4+ save, if we compare this to the amount of damage that unit will be doing without the battalion buff.

 6.8 damage/unit/attack.

Meaning that at 7 full units of Fellwater Troggoths attacking at the same time the battalion has a higher expected damage output than just 1 extra unit of Fellwater Troggoths. This is ofc ignoring all the extra details such as the 2.7 D/U/A for the pukes or the CP/Artefact.

Conclusion
The Troggherd really requires you to be running around 6/7 units of Fellwater Troggoths in order to be worth it meaning a minimum sized efficient Troggherd comes in at around 1260 points. 1 x (Dankhold Troggboss) and 6 x (3 x Fellwater Troggoths) below that just take an extra unit of BattleTroggs. Each unit of Fellwaters is equivilent to 2xRockgut or 3xDankhold. Meaning that you are going to need At Least 4 units of Fellwater troggoths to make this battalion worth it.

With this in mind I'm think that actually the normal Dankhold Troggoth might actually be a trap for Troggoth lists, it's to expensive, doesn't bring the wounds or attacks and doesn't offer the Command Ability. So it's probably only useful as a +1 in more Moonclan focused lists. That said a unit of 3xDankhold Troggoths has a 43% chance to instikill a 6 wound character or 70% chance vs 5wound character...

For anyone interested in Molog (who is amazing) or the BattleTroggs comparisions.

Final analysis is that a Troggherd list is going to look something like this.

Couple of list building choices here.

1. Double Troggboss is mandatory, especially with the extra artefact.
2. Fellwaters should be in units of 6, they lose nothing and can now provide Lookout Sir! for your Troggbosses
3. 2 units of Rockguts for their huge anti-armour options, this gives you 32 -2 rend attacks across the army and they are ALL multiple damage!
4. 2 units of stabbas because they fit the points nicely, they add bodies/chaff, can be resummoned, give you netters and provide Lookout Sir!
5. Molog/Troggoth Hag are absent because they don't go in the Troggherd
6. No Dankhold Troggoths because they really don't benefit from the Troggherd and are just to expensive to make it efficient with them.

Honestly this seems like a fairly reasonable list, my only complaint is the lack of wizards but I suspect that is inevitable with Troggherds.

You can also get a hag which is a hero and provides magic. It won't benefit from the battalion but iam not sure if a second boss does. 

[Jupiter]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

 

Double

Edited January 7, 2019 by Jupiter
Double pls delete

[miguel_fernan]

9 hours ago, Flogger said:

Probably buying this on Saturday: [...]

170 Mollog 

Will it be on preorder this saturday also? Had no idea it will became available too.

[Eevika]

2 minutes ago, miguel_fernan said:

Will it be on preorder this saturday also? Had no idea it will became available too.

No I don't think he is. It wasn't in the post about this weeks preorders

[j0lt]

It's really disappointing that the standard Troggoths aren't viable for their points, it looks like the rockguts are the real MVPs of any list.

it's looking likely I'll either go for a full "swamp" theme or have some mandatory grotz in to pad out the list.

[Eevika]

37 minutes ago, j0lt said:

It's really disappointing that the standard Troggoths aren't viable for their points, it looks like the rockguts are the real MVPs of any list.

 it's looking likely I'll either go for a full "swamp" theme or have some mandatory grotz in to pad out the list.

How are rockguts the mwp when Fellwater troggoths are strickly better. My Troggherd will likely be

Dankhold Troggboss

Troggoth Hag

Mollog

6x Fellwater Troggoths

6x Fellwater Troggoths

6x Fellwater Troggoths

 

And I honestly think thats one of the more viable Troggherd lists there is. I see no reason to run a single unit of Rockguts

[dirkdragonslayer]

14 hours ago, Jupiter said:

I wish the old king also had a place. Recently got the model as a start of a themed troll army for casual narrative play. Could he be used as throgg boss? 

Throgg the Troll King is too small to be a Trogboss, but he is the same size as the new named character Mollog. Convert up 3 squig buddies and you could run him up as Mollog.

[j0lt]

58 minutes ago, Eevika said:

How are rockguts the mwp when Fellwater troggoths are strickly better. My Troggherd will likely be

Dankhold Troggboss

Troggoth Hag

Mollog

6x Fellwater Troggoths

6x Fellwater Troggoths

6x Fellwater Troggoths

 

And I honestly think thats one of the more viable Troggherd lists there is. I see no reason to run a single unit of Rockguts

That's a typo on my part, should say Fellwater, I'd be careful throwing around words like strictly though, Rockguts will have a place in some lists surely, your list looks very similar to what I would like to run.

[Eevika]

6 minutes ago, j0lt said:

That's a typo on my part, should say Fellwater, I'd be careful throwing around words like strictly though, Rockguts will have a place in some lists surely, your list looks very similar to what I would like to run.

Ah makes sense. and yeah strictly might be too hard but for most situations you want Fellwaters. If you really need easy MW output Rockguts can provide that.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Normal dankbois will be good for normal Gloomspite armies that don't have other trolls, since the boss would be losing out on his command ability; a reasonably cheap monster that buffs bravery for goblins? Sounds solid to me.

As for Rockguts, as I said, there'll be some units that will require mortal wounds and high-rend to crack. I can see Fellwaters being the 'battleline' of the army where Rockguts will be the nut-crackers, since while the puke is good, it is random damage so may not do enough. We also need to factor in durability here; Rockguts essentially have a 5+ rerollable against non-rend attacks which is better than a 4+, while always getting a save no matter what. Fellwaters only get their added durability in combat, so it's really a question of which troll for the job?

I'd always bring a Shaman to use Nightshroud as the trolls need cover while they advance up the board. Also let's not forget the prospect of teleporting trolls with Hand of Mork.

[Eevika]

17 minutes ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

Normal dankbois will be good for normal Gloomspite armies that don't have other trolls, since the boss would be losing out on his command ability; a reasonably cheap monster that buffs bravery for goblins? Sounds solid to me.

 As for Rockguts, as I said, there'll be some units that will require mortal wounds and high-rend to crack. I can see Fellwaters being the 'battleline' of the army where Rockguts will be the nut-crackers, since while the puke is good, it is random damage so may not do enough. We also need to factor in durability here; Rockguts essentially have a 5+ rerollable against non-rend attacks which is better than a 4+, while always getting a save no matter what. Fellwaters only get their added durability in combat, so it's really a question of which troll for the job?

 I'd always bring a Shaman to use Nightshroud as the trolls need cover while they advance up the board. Also let's not forget the prospect of teleporting trolls with Hand of Mork.

Whats the wording on hand of mork what can it actually move?

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Just now, Eevika said:

Whats the wording on hand of mork what can it actually move?

Gloomspite Gitz models.

[Eevika]

Just now, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

Gloomspite Gitz models.

Hmm sounds fun maybe I should make space in my list to run a Cauldron or a basic shaman

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Having teleported a Treelord Ancient next to Arkhan a while ago and insta-killing him, I can say with confidence that a teleporting Troggboss will make someone drop a proverbial brick.

[Malakree]

4 hours ago, Jupiter said:

You can also get a hag which is a hero and provides magic. It won't benefit from the battalion but iam not sure if a second boss does. 

You are right, the second Troggboss does not which is honestly ridiculous. It makes the battalion pretty terrible if I'm honest. That said you need the second Troggboss for the Command Ability imo where as the Hag is just to expensive to go into a Troggherd. My analysis was entirely around the battalion and nothing else.

Really the Troggherd needs to be Errata'd to use Keywords instead of unit names and to be

Quote

1 Dankhold Troggboss
3-9 Dankhold Troggoths, Fellwater Troggoths and Rockgut Troggoths in any combination.
0-2 Aleguzzler Gargants 

Pretty sure I already had that rant though so I'm not going to get into it.

On the Rockgut vs Fellwater I think it's a case of different tools. I really like the fact they are different.

Fellwaters are your standard infantry and can be run in blocks of more than 3. Think Ardboys.
Rockguts are heavy infantry, they run in blocks of 3 and no more. They have mortal wound output and hit like Mawkrushas (litterally)

I'd honestly say that a good (none-themed) troggoth army should have at least 6 of both, any Ironjawz player can tell you how important both Mortal Wound output and -2 Rend options are to have available. For 320 points you are adding a wopping Twelve 3+/3+/-2/3 damage attacks, that's ignoring the MW output which can be used on heroes for a 1/6 free Arcanebolt and more importantly IS NOT A SHOOTING ATTACK meaning that even if you are in combat you can target anything within 12"

Quote

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
Dankhold Troggboss (300)

Battleline
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)

Total: 1880/ 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Wounds: 128

Seems stupid but that's 56 -2 rend attacks, for either 3 or D6 damage, and 8 model count based arcane bolts.
Do you have any idea how ridiculous that attack line is?

On the other hand (of gork) I can totally see there being a place for a Moonclan Wizard with Hand of Gork on a unit of 12 Fellwater troggoths, get them straight into combat to pin your opponent down.

EDIT: Hell can you imagine a unit of 12 Rockgut Troggs suddenly appearing in front of your line, that's ~21/24 expected wounds against sequitors rerolling all saves...it's legitimately going to delete stuff.

So yeah, both BattleTroggs are fine.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Malakree

[Eevika]

6 minutes ago, Malakree said:

You are right, the second Troggboss does not which is honestly ridiculous. It makes the battalion pretty terrible if I'm honest. That said you need the second Troggboss for the Command Ability imo where as the Hag is just to expensive to go into a Troggherd. My analysis was entirely around the battalion and nothing else.

Really the Troggherd needs to be Errata'd to use Keywords instead of unit names and to be

Pretty sure I already had that rant though so I'm not going to get into it.

On the Rockgut vs Fellwater I think it's a case of different tools. I really like the fact they are different.

Fellwaters are your standard infantry and can be run in blocks of more than 3. Think Ardboys.
Rockguts are heavy infantry, they run in blocks of 3 and no more. They have mortal wound output and hit like Mawkrushas (litterally)

I'd honestly say that a good (none-themed) troggoth army should have at least 6 of both, any Ironjawz player can tell you how important both Mortal Wound output and -2 Rend options are to have available. For 320 points you are adding a wopping Twelve 3+/3+/-2/3 damage attacks, that's ignoring the MW output which can be used on heroes for a 1/6 free Arcanebolt and more importantly IS NOT A SHOOTING ATTACK meaning that even if you are in combat you can target anything within 12"

Seems stupid but that's 56 -2 rend attacks, for either 3 or D6 damage, and 8 model count based arcane bolts.
 Do you have any idea how ridiculous that attack line is?

 On the other hand (of gork) I can totally see there being a place for a Moonclan Wizard with Hand of Gork on a unit of 12 Fellwater troggoths, get them straight into combat to pin your opponent down.

You seem to value -2 rend really high and it makes sense but I'm not sure if you realise that fellwater troggoths have -2 rend on the shooting attack and it has a much better hit chance than a Rockgut melee attack. I know the damage is random but the Fellwater shooting is nothing to scoff at.

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Eevika said:

You seem to value -2 rend really high and it makes sense but I'm not sure if you realise that fellwater troggoths have -2 rend on the shooting attack and it has a much better hit chance than a Rockgut melee attack. I know the damage is random but the Fellwater shooting is nothing to scoff at.

With the RR1s command ability it's not actually that noticeable. It's also 3 attacks vs 6, shooting (your turn only) vs combat (every combat phase) and a flat 3 is way better than d3.

If you need to crack something with a good RRfailed saves then the -2 is so much better than the -1 it's unreal. Remember that if something has RRfailed saves on a 4+ then against -2 rends they don't get to RR 4s/5s. 

There's also a fair bit of MW spam going on in the game atm so the 5++ is potentially better than -1 melee hit depending on what you're facing.

Lastly the 12" arcane bolt in the shooting phase is so much better than 6" shooting attack it's unreal.

Yes the difference having access to good -2 rend makes is unbelievable.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

12 minutes ago, Malakree said:

With the RR1s command ability it's not actually that noticeable. It's also 3 attacks vs 6, shooting (your turn only) vs combat (every combat phase) and a flat 3 is way better than d3.

If you need to crack something with a good RRfailed saves then the -2 is so much better than the -1 it's unreal. Remember that if something has RRfailed saves on a 4+ then against -2 rends they don't get to RR 4s/5s. 

There's also a fair bit of MW spam going on in the game atm so the 5++ is potentially better than -1 melee hit depending on what you're facing.

Lastly the 12" arcane bolt in the shooting phase is so much better than 6" shooting attack it's unreal.

Yes the difference having access to good -2 rend makes is unbelievable.

Gloomspite Gits probably have one of the best magic denials out there now in the game excluding Nagash. Just being under the moonlight Skraggrot has a +2 to dispel. You could also take the Malavolent Moon and lunch it 24" down field to mess with the enemies casting to a -1 or even -2.

If your going pure Troll then yeah you will struggle vs magic but it wont hurt to add some moonclan, you could model shamans as half trolls, use the gobin town goblins as the stabbas and have them as troll runtlings or something. 

In the fluff section about trolls it mentions a few other breeds, ones that belch dark fumes to conceal themselves, others that use farting as a means of echolocation and ones that throw a little node out to Sourbreathes so there is definitively room to expand on the troll range in the far future

Edited January 7, 2019 by Ekrund Oath Splitters

[j0lt]

34 minutes ago, Malakree said:

On the other hand (of gork) I can totally see there being a place for a Moonclan Wizard with Hand of Gork on a unit of 12 Fellwater troggoths, get them straight into combat to pin your opponent down

This is the type of shenanigans I'm talking about, it'll also reduce the casualties/wounds we take from having to move up the board.

Love the idea

Now for my book to arrive and my coin of the realm being used to summon the lovely trolls from their caves or swamps =D

[Malakree]

11 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Gloomspite Gits probably have one of the best magic denials out there now in the game excluding Nagash. Just being under the moonlight Skraggrot has a +2 to dispel. You could also take the Malavolent Moon and lunch it 24" down field to mess with the enemies casting to a -1 or even -2.

If your going pure Troll then yeah you will struggle vs magic but it wont hurt to add some moonclan, you could model shamans as half trolls, use the gobin town goblins as the stabbas and have them as troll runtlings or something. 

In the fluff section about trolls it mentions a few other breeds, ones that belch dark fumes to conceal themselves, others that use farting as a means of echolocation and ones that throw a little node out to Sourbreathes so there is definitively room to expand on the troll range in the far future

It's not spells I'm worried about, it's things like the Boingrot Bounders, DoK, Prayers, Evocators. There is a lot of MW which comes from none magic sources, especially in top tier tournament lists.

[Eevika]

39 minutes ago, Malakree said:

On the other hand (of gork) I can totally see there being a place for a Moonclan Wizard with Hand of Gork on a unit of 12 Fellwater troggoths, get them straight into combat to pin your opponent down.

Might have to remove 3 fellwater troggoths but maybe I'll add a Fungoid Cave shaman and an endless spell of some sort in to my army.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

Rockguts and Dankholds are really resistant to magic. You can make a Dankboss almost immune to magic using a command trait.

[Eevika]

Just got the idea to Hand of Gork a Troggoth Hag on turn one to get the full vomit on a unit. You can also try casting the spell and charging with her aswell all on turn 1. 

[Jupiter]

After reading the warscrolls more carefully, it's clear that large units of both trolls are not so great. With bravery 5 and I didnt see any way to improve on that combining with the ruling on healing and even more for the ranged attack of the rock trolls that is per unit. It's a bit of a shame that it really doesn't give any true options to make a unit larger then 3.