A Bad Rule for the Bad Moon

[RuneBrush]

+++MOD HAT+++

Gentle reminder that until we have the battletome in our hands to read, everything has to be taken with a large pinch of salt.  WHCom do get things wrong and our crystal balls are pretty unreliable too.

For those of you with a Twitch subscription, check out today's Twitch stream for Ben Johnson's interview about the battletome.

[HammerOfSigmar]

Anyone watch the game on twitch today? Does the mushroom guy have a mapwide comet to cause mortal wounds?

[SwampHeart]

9 minutes ago, Kramer said:

So, I personally can’t really fault the mechanic of a allegiance ability that’s not interactive. Because knowing the rules of days abilities almost always allows you to play around them, and I don’t need everything interactive. 

Counter play doesn't mean the rule has to be interactive. It means that you can counter it via your own play. 

[Kramer]

Just now, SwampHeart said:

Counter play doesn't mean the rule has to be interactive. It means that you can counter it via your own play. 

Okay fair point. But Isnt that sementics in this case? Counter or interactive was meant as the same in my post. Might be something lost in translation but re-reading it my argument still stands I feel:

You cant counter other allegiance abilities in their use. You can play around it. You can’t stop SE from dropping in, you can play around it. Just like you, as it was described in the Twitch stream today, can’t stop the bad moon, but you can move out of its way.  

Which leads me to be absolutely fine with rules like that. 

[SwampHeart]

4 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Okay fair point. But Isnt that sementics in this case?

Not really no - interactive is the magic phase, you roll dice, I roll dice. There is a push and pull on both players part - a mechanic with counter play simply means I have the opportunity to deal with how it impacts me. SCE Deepstrike has counter play - screening, movement, etc. The Nurgle ability has counter play because the targets have to be within 12" of one another so you can manage it. The Nurgle ability to move the dial with a spell is interactive because both players are involved in its usage. 

They mean two distinct things - no one is asking for Allegiance abilities to be interactive, I don't want to be able to turn off high tide. I just want the option to play well and mitigate it. And if I don't have that option (like with the Bad Moon) then ability should have a smaller impact to compensate (like the Bad Moon). 

Edited January 2, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Kramer]

2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Not really no - interactive is the magic phase, you roll dice, I roll dice. There is a push and pull on both players part - a mechanic with counter play simply means I have the opportunity to deal with how it impacts me. SCE Deepstrike has counter play - screening, movement, etc. The Nurgle ability has counter play because the targets have to be within 12" of one another. 

Okay let me try to rephrase it within that definition: No allegiance ability is interactive but (close to) all allow counter play. Therefore I don’t see a problem with the bad moon rule as described and shown in the stream today.

let me know if I need to rephrase the it again, but I do suspect you understanding my point was never the issue. 

[Sleboda]

8 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

Please guys... what is with the constant negativity. Do people really not have anything better to do than complain about rules not out yet.

"Constant" negativity? Hardly. I can't speak for others, but I'm overwhelmingly positive about AoS and simply voiced a single concern over this one no-skill no-stop rule.

 

Now that I've seen how it works, I still think it's bad design. It won't matter much against large units, so you might as well take the luck shot against 5 wound heroes. Sometimes you'll get a free kill of a vital piece without ever having to do anything resembling good play. 

If it ends up taking a command point to do it, then that's a different story, but at present it's just several chances to kill something with zero effort or cost.

 

[Sleboda]

8 hours ago, Still-young said:

Let’s not talk about the book at all until it’s out then. 

Why? If they want to hype it (generate pre-sales) with snippets and streams, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to use that info as the basis of discussion.

[Still-young]

20 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Why? If they want to hype it (generate pre-sales) with snippets and streams, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to use that info as the basis of discussion.

I was being facetious

[Future]

How is seraphon summoning interactive?

How is healing interactive (literally the inverse of this mortal wounds issue)?

This isn't the first rule or faction to have abilities that aren't interactive. Also it's not even very strong.

 

Edit: Humorously it turns out the guy under the table is totally safe. Now him and his friend under a table together have a chance of being hit.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Future

[froo]

52 minutes ago, Future said:

Humorously it turns out the guy under the table is totally safe. Now him and his friend under a table together have a chance of being hit.

Men have been driven mad trying to predict the Bad Moon's location - it's best not to think too much about how it acts.

[Ahemme]

4 hours ago, Sleboda said:

"Constant" negativity? Hardly. I can't speak for others, but I'm overwhelmingly positive about AoS and simply voiced a single concern over this one no-skill no-stop rule.

  

Now that I've seen how it works, I still think it's bad design. It won't matter much against large units, so you might as well take the luck shot against 5 wound heroes. Sometimes you'll get a free kill of a vital piece without ever having to do anything resembling good play. 

 If it ends up taking a command point to do it, then that's a different story, but at present it's just several chances to kill something with zero effort or cost.

 

I don´t really get why you´re so frustrated with it. If the grot player has the choice between 5d3 guaranteed mortal wounds over the course of a battle to larger units, or a relatively poor chance of taking out a hero, it probably wouldn´t be anything resembling good play to focus on the hero.

With the chance of hitting the hero being 1/6, with an average wound output of 2, it would take 18 battle rounds to reliably take out a 5 wound hero, and it would happen at the cost of causing those mortal wounds to other units. 
It´s true that it could still happen, but it doesn´t really seem worth it to me. 

If you´re still afraid that it would happen, as far as i know most factions have artifact options that either offers some sort of mortal wounds protection or healing, which would further mitigate the threat. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Ahemme

[Ointagru]

28 minutes ago, Ahemme said:

With the chance of hitting the hero being 1/6, with an average wound output of 2, it would take 18 battle rounds to reliably take out a 5 wound hero, and it would happen at the cost of causing those mortal wounds to other units. 
It´s true that it could still happen, but it doesn´t really seem worth it to me. 

And that is assuming the hero stays 18 rounds in the same quadrant as the Bad Moon.

[Eevika]

1 hour ago, Ointagru said:

And that is assuming the hero stays 18 rounds in the same quadrant as the Bad Moon.

I believe the damage ability works on the entire battlefield all the time

[Kramer]

4 minutes ago, Eevika said:

I believe the damage ability works on the entire battlefield all the time

Really? I interpreted the twitch explanation as: you choose a quadrant, only effects there and every turn it moves towards the center. When it hits the centre it influences the whole table. I assume that also includes the damage ability, but you might be right. It might be excluded   

Now, after that during the game someone said something about abilities also being able to speed up or slow the moon down. So the next is a very ill informed guess, but I’m guessing when the moon hits the centre it disappears or deminishes or something. Because else why delay the table wide effects. 

[Ointagru]

9 minutes ago, Eevika said:

I believe the damage ability works on the entire battlefield all the time

From the warhammer community preview: "Enemy Units anywhere on the board are bombarded with meteors from the Bad Moon, and take damage."

So you are right. 

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Ointagru

[RuneBrush]

16 minutes ago, Ointagru said:

From the warhammer community preview: "Enemy Units anywhere on the board are bombarded with meteors from the Bad Moon, and take damage."

So you are right. 

Again, anything put up by WHCom you need to take with a bit of a pinch of salt as they don't always get it right (Legions of Nagash players were led to believe that any hero could use Endless Legions and it turned out to be just the general).

[Eevika]

Just now, RuneBrush said:

Again, anything put up by WHCom you need to take with a bit of a pinch of salt as they don't always get it right (Legions of Nagash players were led to believe that any hero could use Endless Legions and it turned out to be just the general).

I believe this was shown in action on the stream last night as Alarielle was hit by the meteors while being in the upper left side while the moon was still on the lower right.

[Gaz Taylor]

Personally, until the book is out, I wouldn't make any massive reactions around this. The rule sounds really cool to me but I can see it could be overpowered if it wasn't worded right or hadn't been properly thought about. However, I do believe that GW have their heads screwed on with the battletomes now and after listening to Sam Pearson and the process in writing a battletome on the latest Stormcast Episode, I have complete confidence that GW will do a great job. 

[SwampHeart]

7 hours ago, Future said:

How is seraphon summoning interactive?

Its not about if its interactive - its about if there is counter play. There is counter play to summoning because you understand its positioning and requirements so you can play to limit summoning avenues, deny resources, etc. Again - interactivity and counter play are not the same thing. I don't want to be able to stop your allegiance ability or main gimmick if you will. I want to be able to make decisions in the game that allow me to control the impact of that gimmick. And as I've already said - if you can't control the gimmick then its impact should be limited. The Bad Moon missile effect is a GOOD example of this concept. 
 

 

[HammerOfSigmar]

Community release another glimpse of the battletome. This time, it seems to just have a snapshot of the book. The aretifact of the grots are really powerful.

[Dead Scribe]

It sounds over powered.  Which makes it perfect for tournaments

[yarrickson]

Doesn't sound overpowered in the slightest. There's a few armies in the game that it'll rarely effect (beastclaw, any big gribbly army) and it's at best 5d3 mw over the course of a game. Khorne, Nurgle, SCE, half the realmscapes already have similar anyway. 

Fuss over nothing imo. 

[HammerOfSigmar]

I think instead of arguing about something unclear yet. We can discuss on the newly released aretifact and magic. They are very powerful in my opinion....

[Sleboda]

12 hours ago, Future said:

How is seraphon summoning interactive?

How is healing interactive (literally the inverse of this mortal wounds issue)?

This isn't the first rule or faction to have abilities that aren't interactive. Also it's not even very strong.

 

Edit: Humorously it turns out the guy under the table is totally safe. Now him and his friend under a table together have a chance of being hit.

I do understand your point, but I believe there is a difference between don't something positive for your force and being able to inflict damage that cannot, in any way or under any circumstances, be countered on the foe.

Also, that lone guy is not safe. 1 in 6 to take an average of 2 mortal wounds.

 

And to be clear, I'm not saying it's over powered (it might be fine in the context if the army). I'm saying it is not remotely fun for at least one of the player. Having something done to your army that no amount of good decision making or tactical play can counter or react to is just not fun.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Sleboda