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HorseOnABeachBall

Nagash Counter?

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5 minutes ago, 123lac said:

Pretty sure 'Distraction Carnifex' means a relatively cheap unit that your opponent mistakenly thinks is a bigger threat than it really is. Hence the distraction.

Nagash is like 800 points...?

Not really. Being a Distraction Carnifex doesn't have to be cheap, just huge and threatening looking that it will bait the opponent into focusing on him. Regardless the point I was making was that unless you can guarantee Nagash to go down on your first turn then imo it's hard to argue fighting him when you can just ignore him for the rest of the army that will actually put the in work of killing your army or getting the objectives.

I also agree with Swamp Heart in his first large post. It was pretty much what I was going for just in much better detail.

I'm just a little disappointed the OP is posting with a slight passive agressiveness. I hope my posts help though. 😟

 

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It really depends on the kind of list that forms around Nagash. If it's a footslogging Skeleton Horde backed up by Nagash, I'd focus Nagash because the horde can simply be tied up with sacrificial units and screened. If it's Nagash and Vargeists, Morghasts, etc, I'd focus those other units instead.

For example, I ran a Seraphon list with Lord Kroak against a Nagash list that had two units of Morghasts and two big skellie blocks. Every turn he would heal D3 on all characters, and around D6 models in the units. So me doing chip damage wouldn't have been valuable. That said - he's only healing D3 per turn. So I kept battering Nagash with Bastiladon and Stegadon ranged attacks and Kroaks Comets. He is resiliant, but honestly, nothing is so resilient to withstand sustained fire from targets with at least 1 rend. 

I just kept throwing Skinks and Saurus chaf into the front lines to slow down his hammer units and Nagash and keep them off my ranged fire. Eventually he went down. Fun fact: I threw my Bastilladon against him thinking the 3+ unrendable save would be a pretty solid anchor... Turns out big Skellie just turned him to ash with a spell. 🤣

Anyhow - the answer with any elite superheavy is Kite em with cheap units, Shoot them with everything.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Barbossal said:

It really depends on the kind of list that forms around Nagash. If it's a footslogging Skeleton Horde backed up by Nagash, I'd focus Nagash because the horde can simply be tied up with sacrificial units and screened. If it's Nagash and Vargeists, Morghasts, etc, I'd focus those other units instead.

For example, I ran a Seraphon list with Lord Kroak against a Nagash list that had two units of Morghasts and two big skellie blocks. Every turn he would heal D3 on all characters, and around D6 models in the units. So me doing chip damage wouldn't have been valuable. That said - he's only healing D3 per turn. So I kept battering Nagash with Bastiladon and Stegadon ranged attacks and Kroaks Comets. He is resiliant, but honestly, nothing is so resilient to withstand sustained fire from targets with at least 1 rend. 

I just kept throwing Skinks and Saurus chaf into the front lines to slow down his hammer units and Nagash and keep them off my ranged fire. Eventually he went down. Fun fact: I threw my Bastilladon against him thinking the 3+ unrendable save would be a pretty solid anchor... Turns out big Skellie just turned him to ash with a spell. 🤣

Anyhow - the answer with any elite superheavy is Kite em with cheap units, Shoot them with everything.

A very interesting take. Anything can die if you throw enough models to spare at them, assuming you got the models and rounds to spare. I guess Seraphon can fit that bill pretty well considering their possible playstyles!

Edited by CaptainSoup
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Posted (edited)

I have fought Nagash alot recently and can say pretty confidently that ignoring him is not a viable option.  It WAS but that's 1st edition tactics and definitely doesn't work with realm spells.  If you stumble into the "ignore rend" realm spell (I don't remember which realm that was) he's essentially unkillable and no longer needs to be screened.  It's so bad.

If not, I have had success with Idoneth eel charges (as long as you don't get back to back unfortunate-ness and debuffed to the shadow realms), celestars, kharadrons blocks, skinks after skink after skink lines and instant kill combos with khorne.  In each strategy though, my focus was entirely killing Nagash quickly and then doing cleanup. 

It's my biggest problem with him as a unit.  He creates battles that aren't fun.  He ruins an entire element of the game, destroys any possible counter power, has an army wide infinite range ungodly powerful command ability which is 3 command abilities in 1, and is unbelievable survivable.  With that, on any given turn, has a moderate impact on the game.  He's infinitely defendable from a rules standard.

 He can only really be killed with a huge, overwhelming, crazy fast, ultra powerful punch.  If you land it, everyone cries "tAts bRokn!!!!" and sulks away because 800 points got killed in one turn.  Fun...

Rant complete - shoot the **** out of him.

Edited by Vextol
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Vextol said:

I have fought Nagash alot recently and can say pretty confidently that ignoring him is not a viable option.  It WAS but that's 1st edition tactics and definitely doesn't work with realm spells.  If you stumble into the "ignore rend" realm spell (I don't remember which realm that was) he's essentially unkillable and no longer needs to be screened.  It's so bad.

If not, I have had success with Idoneth eel charges (as long as you don't get back to back unfortunate-ness and debuffed to the shadow realms), celestars, kharadrons blocks, skinks after skink after skink lines and instant kill combos with khorne.  In each strategy though, my focus was entirely killing Nagash quickly and then doing cleanup. 

It's my biggest problem with him as a unit.  He creates battles that aren't fun.  He ruins an entire element of the game, destroys any possible counter power, has an army wide infinite range ungodly powerful command ability which is 3 command abilities in 1, and is unbelievable survivable.  With that, on any given turn, has a moderate impact on the game.  He's infinitely defendable from a rules standard.

 He can only really be killed with a huge, overwhelming, crazy fast, ultra powerful punch.  If you land it, everyone cries "tAts bRokn!!!!" and sulks away because 800 points got killed in one turn.  Fun...

Rant complete - shoot the **** out of him.

Agreed. Thst‘s Why I hate fielding and playing against unique characters: they dominate lists, restrict creativity and they‘re just no fun playing against ever since most are supreme cheeselords.

Edited by JackStreicher

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I used to take him off the table with my KO top o' 1 without fail.  I haven't seen a reliable thing able to beat down death lists other than DoK lists (just being better than everything point for point) since the last Generals Handbook and the addition of the spellportal and extra spells.

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On 1/2/2019 at 3:00 PM, SwampHeart said:

Nevermind. Suffice to say - just using an Umbral Spell Portal doesn't really work as any form of consistent counter to Nagash. 

The portal isn't there to hurt Nagash, it's there to delete his reaper hordes out of dispel range.

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The reality of Nagash in the realms paired 2 x 30 Grimghasts is that it is literally one of the best army compositions you can be playing and doesn't have many weaknesses  - if any. I can offer you some advice on what I have had some success with against Nagash but as stated you're playing against the peak of list composition.

1 - Decide if you're going to pressure Nagash or not, this a decision you can make on turn one once you know who goes first and seen deployment. Pressuring Nagash has it's advantages, you can limit the amount of spell he casts and reduce his spell casting / unbind bonus. If you can knock him down a bracket or two and make unbinding a tad more reasonable you can potentially deny his healing spells which means you can keep pressuring him. If he doesn't screen Nagash (which, of course he will) and you can alpha him this of course can make the decision for you (if someone leaves a gap for me to get Durthu within 3" etc). If you're going first hitting him before his command ability get puts up can really help as well. 

My decision process as a Sylvaneth player pretty much goes - can I get Durthu in - if yes I will always alpha. If I can't, does he have Arkhan / portal to do a huge Soul Harvest and heal bac up large amounts? If not, that will tip me in favour of pressuring him. List composition also is a massive part of the decision, if someone goes Nagash, Arkhan, Chaff and leaves Arkhan out of reach etc. 

It's a decision you need to make and stick with from turn one. I often decide to pressure Nagash via summoning bow hunters, alarielle shooting, Durthu shooting etc and if I make that decision I will stick to that. There's no point of trying to plink a wound or two off Nagash. If you elect not to you have to ignore him and commit to his units, which is never a fantastic decision to make but some armies have to for multiple reasons (can't alpha. no shooting, etc). If you do this be overally aware of Gravesites, try to prevent good respawning, try not to kill units until the best possible time.

2 - Try to split Nagashs army, this can reduce the amount units can heal via be close to heroes, often can reduce gravesite healing and hopefully can drag a unit out of inspiring presence range. This is easier to do for some armies then others, and some scenarios mean he won't have to split and can commit on playing on 4 tiles. 

3 - Try to kill that Necromancer, Nagash armies will often only bring a single necromancer for Van hals. This is much easier said then done with the ability to bounce wounds, look out sir etc but removing Van Hels is a huge part of the solution. 

4 - Try to manage to gravesites, if you can block units from being resurrected in key places which will cause you problems If resurrected. 

Notice I say try on all of this, playing against Nagash and 60 Grimghasts is very, very hard and some armies simply have the tools to do so. Doing the above has helped me with the match up, I'm fortunate enough I'm playing a army that can somewhat handle Nagash but it is still a very poor match up for Sylvaneth (and they're a tier 1 army). Simply put you're playing against the tier 1 army in realms, with the most efficient list design they can have. You have to play very well, make all the correct decisions AND probably get a bit of luck to pull out a win. 

 

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7 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

The portal isn't there to hurt Nagash, it's there to delete his reaper hordes out of dispel range.

You won't, more often than not, find that be an effective trick against a good LoN player. Not especially one who is going to have the CP to regenerate the Grimghast unit the one turn it does work. 

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AOS is an objective scoring game.

For the record, 2 skeletons trump Nagash to secure objective and score Victory points. 

I've play against a 1000pts Nagash list before. He decimated my entire army by Turn 4 but I still led by Victory Points to win the battleplan. 

The problem is with LoN, not specifically Nagash.

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12 minutes ago, InSaint said:

AOS is an objective scoring game.

For the record, 2 skeletons trump Nagash to secure objective and score Victory points. 

I've play against a 1000pts Nagash list before. He decimated my entire army by Turn 4 but I still led by Victory Points to win the battleplan. 

The problem is with LoN, not specifically Nagash.

This is not necessarily true; there are atleast 2 scenarios where Nagash being a Wizard Hero means he out-scores almost every unit.

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23 hours ago, InSaint said:

AOS is an objective scoring game.

For the record, 2 skeletons trump Nagash to secure objective and score Victory points. 

I've play against a 1000pts Nagash list before. He decimated my entire army by Turn 4 but I still led by Victory Points to win the battleplan. 

The problem is with LoN, not specifically Nagash.

This.  I suspect a proper moonclan horde will terrify Nagash.

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On 1/9/2019 at 12:42 PM, Swampmist said:

This is not necessarily true; there are atleast 2 scenarios where Nagash being a Wizard Hero means he out-scores almost every unit.

Yeah but what are the odds of randomizing these 2 scenarios?

All the more if it is a tournament and the battle-plans are revealed before hand. People can build optimal armies to win scenarios.

Edited by InSaint

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7 hours ago, InSaint said:

Yeah but what are the odds of randomizing these 2 scenarios?

All the more if it is a tournament and the battle-plans are revealed before hand. People can build optimal armies to win scenarios.

One of those 2 scenarios is run in basically every tournament I've ever attended, about the same as Total Commitment. 

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I find games against these big named characters boring tbh. You either focus on them or get decimated. It goes for Nagash, Morathi, kroak, Skarbrand etc. You essentially have to focus on them or they pick you apart. Or you have to build lists specifically to target them. It's just my opinion but building specific lists to target 1 model is not fun.

Even worse is the salt that flows if and when you kill these models. I shot kroak down in a single turn with hellblasters a while back (3 amazing dice rolls with no doubles) and my opponent essentially went "I can't win, lets quit". Yawn.  

I have Arkhan in my legion of sacrament list (came with the starter set) but don't always play him as we try to play 1k games having had a lot of crappy 2k games with named characters. 

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7 hours ago, Saxon said:

Even worse is the salt that flows if and when you kill these models. I shot kroak down in a single turn with hellblasters a while back (3 amazing dice rolls with no doubles) and my opponent essentially went "I can't win, lets quit". Yawn.  

Makes me think of Primaris Hellblasters blowing up a little frog man. Good image.

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I’ve been using Nagash a lot since I got the model (1.5k lists are pretty sparse), but have often thought how would I counter him.

Now I may have overlooked certain rules and lore wise it would not happen but as a death player I think  four morghasts from a grand host list (+1 attack) and buffed with blood feast (another + 1 attack) should damage him enough if not kill him to make his casting much less frightening. 

Obviously there is the whole issue of actually getting the morghats in combat, that’s part of the game though, 20 attacks -2 rend and 3 damage goodnight Vienna.

On the other hand if Nagash casts the realm spell that makes him unrendable, other options will be needed.

Ps. Yes I am a massive morghast fan ;)

Edited by El Syf
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3 hours ago, 123lac said:

Makes me think of Primaris Hellblasters blowing up a little frog man. Good image.

Sigmar opened the Astartes Chamber.

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I run Nagash regularly and the one thing that scares me the most is high rend shooting.  Started bringing Prismatic Palisade for that reason alone.  

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3 hours ago, El Syf said:

I’ve been using Nagash a lot since I got the model (1.5k lists are pretty sparse), but have often thought how would I counter him.

Now I may have overlooked certain rules and lore wise it would not happen but as a death player I think  four morghasts from a grand host list (+1 attack) and buffed with blood feast (another + 1 attack) should damage him enough if not kill him to make his casting much less frightening. 

Obviously there is the whole issue of actually getting the morghats in combat, that’s part of the game though, 20 attacks -2 rend and 3 damage goodnight Vienna.

On the other hand if Nagash casts the realm spell that makes him unrendable, other options will be needed.

Ps. Yes I am a massive morghast fan ;)

This made me laugh.  "Fight fire with fire laddies!!!"

Morghasts are awesome.  I love the models, I love the power.  It's a shame we dont see them more.  Without being able to res them and because of how expensive they are, most death players go "Splthhhhhhhh  👎". That's the sound if my tongue sticking out.  Kudos to you if you can step away from dogs, small bones and blankets.

The problem, as you mentioned, is getting them there.  They're pretty fast but your odds of getting to Nagash without being debuffed or even finding a place to fit around him are pretty low.  Even played well, you'll probably have to cut your way through. 

Not impossible and you get 10 stars if you do it, because it would be amazing, but  very hard.  Serious dancing required.

Morghatsts are a good pick because they have relatively acceptable damage output, higher than usual rend and decent speed.  Eels fall in the same category (on the charge at least).  Actually, I just did a quick app scan and other than eels morghasts are like one of the only non hero/monster melee units in the game that have more than -1 rend.  Wow.  Well done death, you have yet another "one off".

If you're playing death already though, you should probably use Nagash.  Heck, try to hand of dust him.  It would be like a bad karate movie where two masters can't get the upper hand and for some reason everyone is covered in talc.

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On 1/2/2019 at 2:03 PM, JackStreicher said:

Morathi is no  god and also Nagash can only manifest in one place (according to the lore).

Actually, if you read Soul Wars, Nagash talks about having several versions of himself with a small portion of his power around the realms simultaneously. So the ones we see on the Tabletop are just minor apparitions of himself.

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2 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Actually, if you read Soul Wars, Nagash talks about having several versions of himself with a small portion of his power around the realms simultaneously. So the ones we see on the Tabletop are just minor apparitions of himself.

Nice! Good to know, thanks! ^_^

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On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 5:38 PM, HorseOnABeachBall said:

Hello all

Nagash is currently running roughshod over our local scene.  It's such an oppressive list that most locals would sooner avoid the matchup than play entirely. Even our Nagash players only break it out for tournaments.

What are the general concepts , builds , advice to be able to return the NPE back to the Nagash player? All options are on the table. I've heard a few podcasts that Nagash is falling out of favor in the UK, but am unable to really find those discussions. Thanks in advance !

 

You generally have 3 choices when facing Nagash, kill him instantly with overwhelming force(only really possible with certain armies and even then usually only if the Nagash player made a mistake). Neuter everything AROUND Nagash and keep him tied up with something tough but cheap for a turn or two(difficult thanks to frankly a bit busted LoN summoning and the 'must attack' AoS 2 rules change),  or just outplay him on the mission. Nagash is great, but having 800pts tied up in one model limits how much objective holding he can do.

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