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HorseOnABeachBall

Nagash Counter?

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Hello all

Nagash is currently running roughshod over our local scene.  It's such an oppressive list that most locals would sooner avoid the matchup than play entirely. Even our Nagash players only break it out for tournaments.

What are the general concepts , builds , advice to be able to return the NPE back to the Nagash player? All options are on the table. I've heard a few podcasts that Nagash is falling out of favor in the UK, but am unable to really find those discussions. Thanks in advance !

 

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Do you play with realm magic? He is a beast if so but without it, you can much less. Try a match without all those additional spells against Nagash and it makes a big difference. 

Otherwise you have to focus on killing him v quickly with over whelming firepower. 

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6 hours ago, HorseOnABeachBall said:

Hello all

Nagash is currently running roughshod over our local scene.  It's such an oppressive list that most locals would sooner avoid the matchup than play entirely. Even our Nagash players only break it out for tournaments.

What are the general concepts , builds , advice to be able to return the NPE back to the Nagash player? All options are on the table. I've heard a few podcasts that Nagash is falling out of favor in the UK, but am unable to really find those discussions. Thanks in advance !

 

Would you mind telling us a little bit more about this miraculous list?

Without information it is difficult to point the finger on something.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kurrilino said:

Would you mind telling us a little bit more about this miraculous list?

Without information it is difficult to point the finger on something.

I agree we are going to need some more info before we can pinpoint what help is needed. Even without realm spells though Nagash is a tough cookie. In my local scene which typically avoid real spells, it's easier to just ignore Nagash and kill off everything else.

Edited by CaptainSoup

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 I enjoyed my time playing my lists with him earlier this year,,did pretty well in Tournament play,though no top place finishes..hard to do with his points cost so high.

 Anyhow,,the bane to Nagash is high rend shooting,,Celestars and other siege engines,,mainly due to the inability to give a named character a way to ignore rend.Strong high rend melee can do it too but most players will keep Nagash screened out so good luck with that.Trying to outcast him is a waste of time as well.



 

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1 hour ago, Kurrilino said:

Would you mind telling us a little bit more about this miraculous list?

Without information it is difficult to point the finger on something.

Nagash, 30x2 grimghasts. Season to taste. You can't stop his magic and he debuffs your troops to oblivion.  Entire army is effectively mystic shielded and immune to battle-shock. We play with realms as it's the default recommended setting.

Have you taken on a Nagash list?

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22 minutes ago, HorseOnABeachBall said:

Nagash, 30x2 grimghasts. Season to taste. You can't stop his magic and he debuffs your troops to oblivion.  Entire army is effectively mystic shielded and immune to battle-shock. We play with realms as it's the default recommended setting.

Have you taken on a Nagash list?

To be honest the first thing I thought of when you said "season to taste" was the old Salt Bae meme with Nagash's face on it. Get it?  Salt Nagash? Cause the post gives the impression the poster is... never mind lol.

In all seriousness, my experience with playing Nagash seems to be he's a what 40k players call "a Distraction Carnifex." The unit looks huge and threatening on the table, but if you generally ignore him under normal circumstances he isn't as effective. AoS is very melee heavy, and charging Nagash will give you a bad time quick. And while his debuffs can be quite nasty, he can't overly debuff all of your units. He'll either focus fire a threat with debuffs to shut them down or spread the love reducing its overall effectiveness per unit. The best thing you can do is to kill off as much of his attacking force as possible. Not easy with the Ethereal buff I know, but if you have enough shots they can go down on weight of fire alone or at the very least keep them busy with less useful units so your real fighters can get the  objectives.

It's not easy sure, but they wouldn't be so popular if they were easy to deal with. On the same token they are not the be all end all of AoS. There is a reason why you don't see as much Death win tournaments, just place well in them.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, HorseOnABeachBall said:

Nagash, 30x2 grimghasts. Season to taste. You can't stop his magic and he debuffs your troops to oblivion.  Entire army is effectively mystic shielded and immune to battle-shock. We play with realms as it's the default recommended setting.

He's very much so playing one of the classic 'netlists' for LoN (I personally don't think netlisting is a bad thing). Its a very tough set up to deal with for sure - and unlike what the above poster says Nagash is certainly not a distraction carnifex. He's good enough in melee and obviously the most potent caster in the game which means in any character/wizard scoring game he's an absolute unit. And Grimghasts are just an unreal value unit (and probably shouldn't be allowed in LoN unless as an ally but that's a different argument for a different day). 

As to how to deal with it - much of it depends on how good the Nagash player is. If he isn't great at screening you can try busting up Nagash with MWs (Evocators are a good unit for this) but if he is good at screening then that's less viable. Given that you're playing in the realms I don't know that I'd over invest in shooting - one bad pull in Ulgu pretty much shuts that down. Killing Necromancers can also really help against Nagash because he's often using them as spell batteries for many of his debuffs.  Getting clever with combat tricks can help deal with Grimghasts - learning to charge them from multiple angles to prevent the bulk of the unit from attacking, things like that. Unfortunately there isn't much to be done about their double fight on a 10 ability as that's just a dice game. But overall with Grimghasts the trick is not really trying to match strength against strength with them as they're likely to outfight faster units and outmove more punchy units - use chaff and throw away units to pin them at the edges and then try to kill them with a hammer that is less vulnerable at that point. 

For a more indepth look at the topic I'd suggest the Let's Play podcast - they have a whole episode on how to beat LoN/Death - dealing with their tricks, explaining their spells and abilities, etc. Its worth the listen as a good primer for 'how do I deal with this'. 

Edited by SwampHeart
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If you are just considering counter nagash itself and play stormcast, I have an idea. Use the Astral Templars stormhost, +1 hit roll against monsters. Then drop four celestial ballistar and lord ordinator within 18" of nagash. In average, nagash will be shot dead if you focus all shoots on him in one turn. 

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13 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

If you are just considering counter nagash itself and play stormcast, I have an idea. Use the Astral Templars stormhost, +1 hit roll against monsters. Then drop four celestial ballistar and lord ordinator within 18" of nagash. In average, nagash will be shot dead if you focus all shoots on him in one turn. 

Take 3 celestars and an ordinator: teleport down from azyr and oneshot nagash.

 

or simply ban unique characters from your games 🤷🏼‍♂️ This game is afterall about epic battles in an endlessly large world, but yeah Nagash and Morathi apparently are Omnipresent at every battlefield...

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Take 3 celestars and an ordinator: teleport down from azyr and oneshot nagash.

 

or simply ban unique characters from your games 🤷🏼‍♂️ This game is afterall about epic battles in an endlessly large world, but yeah Nagash and Morathi apparently are Omnipresent at every battlefield...

Gods are not bound by your silly laws of physics.

 

36 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

If you are just considering counter nagash itself and play stormcast, I have an idea. Use the Astral Templars stormhost, +1 hit roll against monsters. Then drop four celestial ballistar and lord ordinator within 18" of nagash. In average, nagash will be shot dead if you focus all shoots on him in one turn. 

This is my go-to strategy for killing Nagash. He's a very big target and vulnerable to focused fire.

Edited by PJetski

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Gods are not bound by your silly laws of physics

Morathi is no  god and also Nagash can only manifest in one place (according to the lore).

Edited by JackStreicher

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I usually don't have a bad time with Nagash list like that.

I play plaquetouched  with further -1 to hit buff abilities. This takes the punch out of any hard hitting units.

The Gaunt summoner with familars and portal is always present as well to make short work of hordes.

At this point Nagash becomes a lightweight and can be ignored.

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1 minute ago, Kurrilino said:

The Gaunt summoner with familars and portal is always present as well to make short work of hordes.

I'm super curious how you're generally able to cast against Nagash with a degree of certainty? I often run the Summoner in DoT with more bonuses to cast than just his normal +1 and even then Nagash usually has the advantage on the dispel roll. 

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1 hour ago, SwampHeart said:

I'm super curious how you're generally able to cast against Nagash with a degree of certainty? I often run the Summoner in DoT with more bonuses to cast than just his normal +1 and even then Nagash usually has the advantage on the dispel roll. 

Spell portal puts you out of unbinding range

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9 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Spell portal puts you out of unbinding range

Nagash casts his better with hand of dust unfortunately. 

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2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Nagash casts his better with hand of dust unfortunately. 

Don't deploy key models in the potential Hand of Dust threat range...

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Just now, PJetski said:

Don't deploy key models in the potential Hand of Dust threat range...

So don't deploy within 50"? That's a tall order - I guess I'm just bad though so it makes sense. 

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1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

So don't deploy within 50"? That's a tall order - I guess I'm just bad though so it makes sense. 

Are we talking about the same Hand of Dust with a 3" range and Spell Portals that must be within 1" of Nagash and within 18" of the first portal?

I know you can increase the range of Hand of Dust with Arkhan's command ability, but what list runs Nagash, Arkhan, and enough command points to get to 50"? Even then it's a coinflip to make Hand of Dust do anything. Doesn't seem like a good strategy to me.

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5 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Are we talking about the same Hand of Dust with a 3" range and Spell Portals that must be within 1" of Nagash and within 18" of the first portal?

I know you can increase the range of Hand of Dust with Arkhan's command ability, but what list runs Nagash, Arkhan, and enough command points to get to 50"? Even then it's a coinflip to make Hand of Dust do anything. Doesn't seem like a good strategy to me.

You're right bud - I'm just bad at the game. Nagash is pretty easy to counter in the magic phase for good players - I'll bow out from providing advice on the subject since I pretty obviously don't know what I'm talking about. 

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Just now, SwampHeart said:

You're right bud - I'm just bad at the game. Nagash is pretty easy to counter in the magic phase for good players - I'll bow out from providing advice on the subject since I pretty obviously don't know what I'm talking about. 

I hope you stretched before moving the goal posts that far! 😂

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Posted (edited)

Nevermind. Suffice to say - just using an Umbral Spell Portal doesn't really work as any form of consistent counter to Nagash. 

Edited by SwampHeart

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Swamp heart , thanks for the good advice. 

 

There's some seriously bad advice in here though...

"Distraction Carnifex"

" just use gaunt summoner"

"just kill all his dudes "

 

lol

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Pretty sure 'Distraction Carnifex' means a relatively cheap unit that your opponent mistakenly thinks is a bigger threat than it really is. Hence the distraction.

Nagash is like 800 points...?

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