Battalion/Force Org Question

[Ogor Tyrannus]

Trying to figure out how to allocate for beastclaw raiders.  I understand if you take one of the new leaders on a beast it will count as a leader and a behemoth as is stated on their entry and in rules.  However, what happens when it says for the base stonehorn or thundertusk - counts as batteline if all models have beast claw raiders.

I think I know which way this goes but would like clarification: does it become battleline only or take up battleline ans behemoth slots?

thanks - still looking for a way for Ogors to be competitive in the new world order

OT

[daedalus81]

It takes both battle line and behemoth.

[RuneBrush]

10 hours ago, Ogor Tyrannus said:

However, what happens when it says for the base stonehorn or thundertusk - counts as batteline if all models have beast claw raiders.

There is no such thing as a base unit anymore so keywords/rules do not transfer over to your leader (in theory it's only his mount).  This rule does allow you to add more stonehorns and thundertusks as your battleline requirement though.

As far as I can work out, units can be either leader or battleline but not both (which makes sense really)

Disclaimer: I don't have the GHb or the Ogor battletome to hand so there be a rule that makes the above incorrect 

 

[Lucio]

It's clear that units can have two roles, and when they do, both roles are counted. Page 107 of the GHB states that a unit which counts as both a Leader and a Behemoth counts as one Leader and one Behemoth.

 

Given that the modifier is applied to a unit with an exisiting role, I'd suggest it adds on rather than replaces, so the unit becomes Battleline and Behemoth, meaning in 1000 points, you can have 2 such units and then the rest of your army must be non Behemoth

[Nico]

I think it's only Battleline, but I'm not 100% confident.

I read the column of battleline status as being alternative not additional. For example sometimes, it says "Leader" in the central column and then "Leader, Behemoth" in the right column if a criteria is met (for example the Celestial Hurricanum). This to me (the repetition of the word "Leader"), suggests that the right column completely replaces the middle one rather than adding to it. 

Not that I want to do broken Beastclaw Avalanchists any favours.

[BaldoBeardo]

I think it's only Battleline, but I'm not 100% confident.

I read the column of battleline status as being alternative not additional. For example sometimes, it says "Leader" in the central column and then "Leader, Behemoth" in the right column if a criteria is met (for example the Celestial Hurricanum). This to me (the repetition of the word "Leader"), suggests that the right column completely replaces the middle one rather than adding to it. 

Not that I want to do broken Beastclaw Avalanchists any favours.

You may well have a point there - the same pattern is repeated for Luminary, Arachnorok and the Phoenixes.

Although these are all cases of adding "Leader" to the existing "Behemoth", rather than making battleline.

So we have instances where existing BR's are repeated, creating the precedent the notes column overrides as an absolute. Which means it's either a misprint (these are the only examples I could find where "Battleline if X" is added to existing roles), or they do indeed just become battleline. [emoji15]

Worth asking GW, because we've got for and against examples.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Nico]

I'm all for monster mash to be fair. I think the battleplans (model count) counteract their viability in tournaments.

[daedalus81]

4 hours ago, Nico said:

I'm all for monster mash to be fair. I think the battleplans (model count) counteract their viability in tournaments.

After looking through the book it looks like they're going to rely on pounding the opponent into dust.  And it seems they are quite capable barring their total lack of magic and magic defense (save one artefact).  They're also ridiculously fast.

 

[Nico]

I don't know whether that bit you've quoted is meant to answer the question, but it doesn't go to that point.

[daedalus81]

Oh yea that was for the original topic.  I just forgot to write something with it.  

[Nico]

No worries. It's sort of relevant, but I don't think it helps. I'm increasingly thinking that the right column is "replacement" of role rather than "addition" of role.

It would be pretty pants for BCR to have to take 3 minimum sized units of Mournfang for 600 points to satisfy Battleline, when other armies are doing it for 180 points.

[daedalus81]

I'm not so certain.  Getting 4 thundertusks/stonehorns is well more than enough.  Having 7?  Outright insane.  People are going to want yhetees, mournfangs, and frost sabres - the rules and synergies are solid.

And I think your point doesn't carry since you'd be paying 960 for battle line at a minimum with thundertusks.

[Nico]

Quote

I'm not so certain.  Getting 4 thundertusks/stonehorns is well more than enough.  Having 7?  Outright insane.  People are going to want yhetees, mournfangs, and frost sabres - the rules and synergies are solid.

And I think your point doesn't carry since you'd be paying 960 for battle line at a minimum with thundertusks.

All I meant was that Mournfang are basically marginally better Juggernauts, i.e. weak units that don't do much other than slowly sit on objectives. You don't want to dump a load of points on them, whereas you would be very happy to spend 960 on awesome Thundertusks.

[daedalus81]

I don't think we're looking at the same warscrolls!

Mournfang are pretty strong, but cost am equitable number of points.  The Eurlbad battalion makes them even choppier.

[Nico]

I genuinely don't think they are very good. They have a little bit of rend and a low number of attacks, half of which will miss. They are marginally better than Chaos Knights, but that's not saying much.

What does the Battalion do?

 

[daedalus81]

If you have 3 mournfangs (two of them skalgs) they average 1.1 wounds from the pistols, 4.8 wounds from the 2 handers, and 3.2 from the mount.  A thundertusk does 1 wound average from the riders, 3.6 from the mount, and 5 from the shooting attack.  

Considering melee happens twice as often it's 17 wounds for mournfang and 14.2 for the thundertusk.  Obviously the thundertusk is not meant to be a frontline unit.  A stonehorn under the same conditions 19.6, but then the mournfang pack 18 wounds and the stonehorn just 12.  The halving of damage would be more impactful if it rounded down (to minimum of 1).  

The stonehorn would be something I would definitely throw against other monsters and heavy armor that also likely do multiple wounds.  Anything 4+ or worse in the infantry class would be ideal for mournfang.

 

If you take Eurlbad then any to wound of 6 inflicts an additional mortal wound on top of normal damage, which means I'd probably want the 1 handed weapons and iron fist.  You can then stick that Eurlbad in Olwyr and give the tusks +1 to hit.  

[Nico]

Thanks for clarifying. 

I think it would be more meaningful to compare them to Chaos Knights or Dracothian Guard. I think you only get a pistol on the champion by the way (or why would you get 2 Skalgs?).

The reason why the Thundertusk's damage is way more important is because of the astonishingly high threat range (which you point to) on the 5 mortal wounds and the fact that it does that without reprisal and irrespective of the 3+ rerollable save or whatever it might be.

That formation buff sounds decent.

[daedalus81]

I did 2 Skalgs since 3 mournfang are cheaper than either monster, but honestly the pistol is a tiny percentage of their damage.  Concussors are an apt comparison I suppose.

They do 2 on shooting and 12.8 on melee without bonuses.  Since it's a clean 6 attacks each you can add another 9 to that, so a grand total of 23.8, which is a fair bit better than mournfang and they still have some upward mobility with extra 6s.  

Mournfang also have the change ability which is worth about 1.5 wounds and we're still looking at a very large wound difference with 18 vs 10. Dracothian do have just about the best stock save out there though.

 

 

[Lucio]

Looks like it's been asked on the AoS page, response was that they gain Battleline in addition to any existing roles, so Beastclaw Thundertusks become Battleline, Behemoth