AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

[Malakree]

3 minutes ago, Amradiel said:

The damage output from the Dankhold Troggoths looks very weak. 

The dankholds are definetly a strange model because their profile has so many different aspects to it.

Club has massive swing potential with a theoretical maximum of 18 damage.

Crushing grip lets you instikill models, no saves, no stupid 5++ or death saves, no -hit etc. Just pick a model and delete it. What other 220 point model can kill Morathi in a single turn?

Bravery aura is just generically good.

4+ to just ignore a spell/endless spell is unbelievable in the current LoN meta.

Regeneration is good because at 10 wounds you have a large pool to sink into it.

Squiggly beast followers is just weird, it poops out mortals on characters/low model units but more importantly does it at the start of the combat phase. So a hero with 1 wound left dies before activations.

Strangest of all is it doesn't have the monster keyword. That means things like SoJ or hero sniping abilities have no effect against a normal dankhold troggoth while the troggboss actually gets lookout sir and cover....

So yeah, the dankhold troggoth is really hard to categorise. It's 60 points extra for a better gargant.

1 hour ago, Bolgan said:

All 3 models look viable from looking at the warscroll, but which one sees the most competitive play probably depends on which lists they fit into. I do agree for the lists I've written so far, the arachnarok shaman is winning out.

I was referring to the none hero variants. The troggboss/manglerboss really have no place in armies not using their command abilities.

For the none hero variants the options available to the arachnarok are fantastic, there's one for every situation. The skitterstrand is actually my standout 200-300 point big thing because of just how hard it puts the fear of (the spider) god into your opponent. Especially nice for 2/3 in the battalion. 

If you have 260ish points spare in a generic gloomspite list it's either the webspinner or skitterstrand arachnarok. Both easily beat out the opposition.

 

 

[Amradiel]

13 minutes ago, Malakree said:

The dankholds are definetly a strange model because their profile has so many different aspects to it.

Club has massive swing potential with a theoretical maximum of 18 damage.

Crushing grip lets you instikill models, no saves, no stupid 5++ or death saves, no -hit etc. Just pick a model and delete it. What other 220 point model can kill Morathi in a single turn?

Bravery aura is just generically good.

4+ to just ignore a spell/endless spell is unbelievable in the current LoN meta.

Regeneration is good because at 10 wounds you have a large pool to sink into it.

Squiggly beast followers is just weird, it poops out mortals on characters/low model units but more importantly does it at the start of the combat phase. So a hero with 1 wound left dies before activations.

Strangest of all is it doesn't have the monster keyword. That means things like SoJ or hero sniping abilities have no effect against a normal dankhold troggoth while the troggboss actually gets lookout sir and cover....

So yeah, the dankhold troggoth is really hard to categorise. It's 60 points extra for a better gargant.

I was referring to the none hero variants. The troggboss/manglerboss really have no place in armies not using their command abilities.

For the none hero variants the options available to the arachnarok are fantastic, there's one for every situation. The skitterstrand is actually my standout 200-300 point big thing because of just how hard it puts the fear of (the spider) god into your opponent. Especially nice for 2/3 in the battalion. 

If you have 260ish points spare in a generic gloomspite list it's either the webspinner or skitterstrand arachnarok. Both easily beat out the opposition.

 

 

Well 18 damage seems very unlikely. It's 3+ to hit and then 3+ to wound with just 3 attacks. I do like the crushing grip though 😊

[FPC]

18 minutes ago, Malakree said:

The skitterstrand is actually my standout 200-300 point big thing because of just how hard it puts the fear of (the spider) god into your opponent. Especially nice for 2/3 in the battalion. 

If you have 260ish points spare in a generic gloomspite list it's either the webspinner or skitterstrand arachnarok. Both easily beat out the opposition.

I think just by the numbers the Mangler Squigs outmatch the Skitterstrand. By a decent margin too. Plus as they get closer to death they get better again, while the spider just plain degrades. The Mangler is even 20pts cheaper. The spider can appear wherever tho. That’s nice I suppose.

I’ll be much more likely to take Manglers than a Skitterstrand personally.

[Satyrical Sophist]

I'm struggling to assemble the squig herds. A lot of them have details in the mouth that look impossible to paint while fully assembled, but you also look like you want to assemble the model in order to have less visible gaps using the plastic glue.

[Malakree]

17 minutes ago, FPC said:

I think just by the numbers the Mangler Squigs outmatch the Skitterstrand. By a decent margin too. Plus as they get closer to death they get better again, while the spider just plain degrades. The Mangler is even 20pts cheaper. The spider can appear wherever tho. That’s nice I suppose.

I’ll be much more likely to take Manglers than a Skitterstrand personally.

Well yeah, the skitterstrand is amazing because of its deepstrike ability...without it it would be overcosted garbage.

Hence if you don't want the deepstriking ability you go for the shaman on arachnarok instead because it brings way more utility and options to the list.

[FPC]

9 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Well yeah, the skitterstrand is amazing because of its deepstrike ability...without it it would be overcosted garbage.

Hence if you don't want the deepstriking ability you go for the shaman on arachnarok instead because it brings way more utility and options to the list.

Eh. It brings spells, one of which buffs only SPIDERFANG, and only marginally increases its own utility. I thought the discussion was purely non-character versions tho? For the Webspinner price I get Manglers and a shaman for similar, and can access any lore. Even the Foot Webspinner if I want. Squigs have great buffs available, if we’re moving beyond the solo models. Better, I think, than the spiders. 

In the mid-200s range I think Manglers are the obvious better choice. They are very self sufficient but can benefit greatly from buffs where there.  Really tho, it’s probably don’t to personal preference. Neither is SO good or bad that they’re obvious auto-includes or leave-homes. I just like the idea of a major melee threat that, if you don’t quite kill it the whole way, suddenly it’s perfectly fine again.  And the Skitterstrand deepstriking behind enemy lines sounds nice, but unsupported it’ll just amount to a distraction (albeit a good one) and maybe objective grabber.

[Vasshpit]

54 minutes ago, Amradiel said:

Well 18 damage seems very unlikely. It's 3+ to hit and then 3+ to wound with just 3 attacks. I do like the crushing grip though 😊

18 damage is just as unlikely as 3 damage. Not out of this world hard to roll 3 6s. 😉

[Vasshpit]

27 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Well yeah, the skitterstrand is amazing because of its deepstrike ability...without it it would be overcosted garbage.

Hence if you don't want the deepstriking ability you go for the shaman on arachnarok instead because it brings way more utility and options to the list.

Prime and paint just the inside mouth then assemble. 😉

[JonnyTheKing]

So what units do you guys predict to be the units that everybody takes (In a competitive sense)  for this army?

[Malakree]

6 minutes ago, FPC said:

Eh. It brings spells, one of which buffs only SPIDERFANG, and only marginally increases its own utility. I thought the discussion was purely non-character versions tho? For the Webspinner price I get Manglers and a shaman for similar, and can access any lore. Even the Foot Webspinner if I want. Squigs have great buffs available, if we’re moving beyond the solo models. Better, I think, than the spiders. 

In the mid-200s range I think Manglers are the obvious better choice. They are very self sufficient but can benefit greatly from buffs where there.  Really tho, it’s probably don’t to personal preference. Neither is SO good or bad that they’re obvious auto-includes or leave-homes. I just like the idea of a major melee threat that, if you don’t quite kill it the whole way, suddenly it’s perfectly fine again.  And the Skitterstrand deepstriking behind enemy lines sounds nice, but unsupported it’ll just amount to a distraction (albeit a good one) and maybe objective grabber.

It was actually originally about manglerboss vs troggboss, which then expanded, ignoring any sort of theming.

The utility from the shaman on arachnarok comes from a couple of different places. Two spells and in bonds with a +1 on them, one from the spiderfang lore which has the "roll a dice for each model in the unit and inflict a mortal for each 6+".

It's also a wizard so counts for the battleplans which require wizard or hero with artefact of power.

I guess I just don't really rate the mangler as a lone model without anything going on around it, I feel like it's purpose is to go in squig theme armies rather than stand alone independently. If we are going really extreme at 300 points I'd much rather have a colossal squig.

The big thing about the skitterstrand is the threat. You force your opponent to respect that ability and it will definetly maul any similar price point heroes who are left unguarded.

It's one of those metagame things where you aren't expecting to get the massive pay out from the skitterstrand. What you're expecting is to force your opponent to have to play to stop you getting the pay out which opens up opportunities elsewhere.

Also remember you can teleport something using the hand of Gork on the same time your spider goes boo. So it's actually a 2 part threat rather than singular.

2 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

So what units do you guys predict to be the units that everybody takes (In a competitive sense)  for this army?

Stabbas. Really that's it.one big unit of stabbas is really hard to pass up. Everything else seems to have a place depending on how you build your army.

[JonnyTheKing]

1 minute ago, Malakree said:

Stabbas. Really that's it.one big unit of stabbas is really hard to pass up. Everything else seems to have a place depending on how you build your army.

Cant argue with that, think anyone would be crazy not to take one big solid 60 strong unit, they offer so much, I really think Boingrot Bounderz played the right way are going to be a really interesting unit competitively 

[Malakithe]

4 hours ago, Mayple said:

On the topic of Dankhold: outside of thematic lists, what do people prefer in terms of pure stats? A Troggboss, or a Loonboss on Mangler? Asking because they're the same cost, so kind of competing with each-other.

Yeah i really like the Dankhold model and he can potentially hit like a truck and out right slay multi-wound models. But they are hard to fit into lists

[FPC]

18 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I guess I just don't really rate the mangler as a lone model without anything going on around it, I feel like it's purpose is to go in squig theme armies rather than stand alone independently. If we are going really extreme at 300 points I'd much rather have a colossal squig.

See, I feel the opposite. I think the Mangler is a great “distraction Carnifex” in any list on its own, that is only enhanced by thematic buffs. With +1 to wound it’ll do great work, but without it it’ll be fine. It’s relatively mobile, and can get to places it needs to be, and maybe not need a tough 9” charge like the Skitterstrand. I’m not saying the spider is bad by any means, but for around the same price (or as I pointed out, Manglers+shaman is about equal to Webspinner) you can’t go wrong.  Just pure damage alone, the Manglers win, and I don’t think ability to deepstrike makes the Skitterstrand a better choice. Opponents will realize quickly that it doesn’t pose a massive offensive threat and deal with it accordingly.

Edited January 13, 2019 by FPC

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, Mayple said:

@Infeston I think the only thing that defines a Troggboss above his peers is how you paint/present him. You should be able to do whatever you want, and still call him a Troggboss as long as he sticks out in some way next to his kin. In a way, we could almost treat it as a unit champion.

This.

All of these parts come from the same kit and are interchangeable.  They are all fair game for use on a Troggboss.  GW makes multi-part kits with options specifically for the purpose of customization.  This kit is a bit of an odd-duck since it builds a hero and a non-hero, but the options should all still be fair game.

It’s no different than a conversion - which GW usually is very considerate about and often encourages.  The only real difference is that in this case all of the parts are from the same kit - which is even more legit.

As @Mayple said, it is less about which parts from the kit that you use and more about the presentation of the model.  If he looks more like a hero on the table then there is no issue. 

[Epobleepo]

Anyone have thoughts about a rogue idol being allied? Bravery and casting buff with some good damage. 

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I'm struggling to assemble the squig herds. A lot of them have details in the mouth that look impossible to paint while fully assembled, but you also look like you want to assemble the model in order to have less visible gaps using the plastic glue.

Use super glue and not plastic glue in these cases.  Or else mask the area where the glue will go when you paint.

[Skabnoze]

I would like to pause the discussion for a second and reflect upon something absutely amazing.

Right now there is a lot of discussion about which of a number of good options is the absolute best.  When does that ever happen for a Destruction faction - let alone one comprised of grots and trolls?  Usually the discussion often revolves around squeezing the best use out of mediocre stuff.

How great is that?!

[Malakree]

27 minutes ago, Epobleepo said:

Anyone have thoughts about a rogue idol being allied? Bravery and casting buff with some good damage. 

I think right now we are still sperging over the book itself. Give us time, we haven't yet recovered from getting the first destruction battletome in about 2 years!

EDIT: 

4 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I would like to pause the discussion for a second and reflect upon something absutely amazing.

Right now there is a lot of discussion about which of a number of good options is the absolute best.  When does that ever happen for a Destruction faction - let alone one comprised of grots and trolls?  Usually the discussion often revolves around squeezing the best use out of mediocre stuff.

How great is that?!

Look mommy, we're a real grand alliance now!

EDIT2:

Just now, Matt Large said:

It’s fantastic! And I’m looking forward to a few weeks time when we have  managed to get some games in to see how our theoryhammer plays out 

And it turns out we still just die to Daughters 🤣😭

Edited January 13, 2019 by Malakree

[Matt Large]

1 minute ago, Skabnoze said:

I would like to pause the discussion for a second and reflect upon something absutely amazing.

Right now there is a lot of discussion about which of a number of good options is the absolute best.  When does that ever happen for a Destruction faction - let alone one comprised of grots and trolls?  Usually the discussion often revolves around squeezing the best use out of mediocre stuff.

How great is that?!

It’s fantastic! And I’m looking forward to a few weeks time when we have  managed to get some games in to see how our theoryhammer plays out 

[Matt Large]

4 minutes ago, Malakree said:

And it turns out we still just die to Daughters 🤣😭

Go on.... 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

1 hour ago, FPC said:

See, I feel the opposite. I think the Mangler is a great “distraction Carnifex” in any list on its own, that is only enhanced by thematic buffs. With +1 to wound it’ll do great work, but without it it’ll be fine. It’s relatively mobile, and can get to places it needs to be, and maybe not need a tough 9” charge like the Skitterstrand. I’m not saying the spider is bad by any means, but for around the same price (or as I pointed out, Manglers+shaman is about equal to Webspinner) you can’t go wrong.  Just pure damage alone, the Manglers win, and I don’t think ability to deepstrike makes the Skitterstrand a better choice. Opponents will realize quickly that it doesn’t pose a massive offensive threat and deal with it accordingly.

Yeah i 100% agree with you FPC, just looking at both warscrolls in a vacuum the Skitterstrand doesnt really hit all that hard.... 

He moves 8", a 4+ save, 14 wounds and 6 bravery. None of his attacks have rend 2 and he doesnt have a lot of multi damage attacks. 8 leg attacks at 4s and 3s -1 rend isnt amazing and his 4 fang attacks on 2s and 3s -1 rend d3 damage again isnt the best, kind of reminds me of a standard hero melee weapon. He degrades as all monsters does, cant move over friendly models with his huge base and can only ignore terrain when moving. He can deepstrike which is nice but as stated before his melee isnt amazing. Finally he has spider venom which is good but unlikely to go off, and if he is under the moon he may get 1 attack that activates it. All for 260pts.

Now the squig, he moves 3d6 a turn so an average of 10", a 4+ save, 12 wounds and 10 bravery. He has fly and a lot more attacks, 7 of which are 2s and 3s -2 rend and d3 damge (on the charge), 4 are 3s and 3s -1 d6 damage then finally 4 attacks 4s and 4s. Already that is miles better than the Skitterstrand. He degrade table is unique in that he has 4 wounds at peak efficiency and 6 that are less so compared to the Skitterstrans 3 wounds at fighting fitness and 9 that get worse as he gets injured. When the squig then dies he deals a deluge of mortal wounds that the Skitterstrand wished he could do. All for 20pts less.

As for the Bravery, the spider is more affected by attacks that use bravery as a weapon whilst the squig has 4 more points in that department as added protection. When you add in buffs the Mangler just gets better, +3 movement, +1 to wound, +1 attack to all his profiles, a -1 to hit in the shooting phase, a hand of gork, itchy nuisance and moonface mommet. 

After seeing the local spiderfang player have 3 games at our LGS yesterday the Skitterstand just kind of bounced off units and then get its legs ripped off brutally.  I stormcast player just ignored it and once again it just couldnt stick its fangs into something, in the end he put some fulminators into it and blasted it back to the spider realm.

In a pure Spiderfang army sure take one or two! Moonclan should rather aims towards a Mangler.

[kenshin620]

29 minutes ago, Malakree said:

And it turns out we still just die to Daughters 🤣😭

Just wait till slaanesh. Daemonettes are already great blenders, imagine a full on battletome!

But yea it's so nice they took lessons from Beasts of Chaos (combing several elements but are still distinct) and gave some love to destruction.

Now if they could also extend that to the orruks! I still think they could get a "multi waaagh" book!

[Joakim]

I’m trying to see what options there can work with hand of Mork/gork and will take effect same turn to deal with sniping behind enemy lines

This is what I see:

fellwater - only 6” vomit so that won’t work

 

rockgut - with a 6-pack you’ll deal d3 mortals to any unit or model with 6 or less wounds.

 

grots with bows - hitting on 5+...

 

Fanatics - can be charged out for a 6” charge

 

Am I missing something with the Spiderfangs? Or does the spell just work for objectives and moving wounded units away from harm?

[Wraithwing]

1 minute ago, Joakim said:

I’m trying to see what options there can work with hand of Mork/gork and will take effect same turn to deal with sniping behind enemy lines

This is what I see:

fellwater - only 6” vomit so that won’t work

 

rockgut - with a 6-pack you’ll deal d3 mortals to any unit or model with 6 or less wounds.

 

grots with bows - hitting on 5+...

 

Fanatics - can be charged out for a 6” charge

 

Am I missing something with the Spiderfangs? Or does the spell just work for objectives and moving wounded units away from harm?

Grots are hitting on 4+ with bows. +1 to hit if there is more than 15 in a unit, which there will be at 20. Wounding on 4+ too!

[Skabnoze]

7 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Look mommy, we're a real grand alliance now!

I’ll take it happily.  Much better than the alternative.

In regards to Daughters of Khaine - this is a GW game so it is inevitable that a faction comes out far too strong.  It happens in just about every edition of almost every game they make.  Let’s hope that they decide to do something about it sooner rather than later.  It seems to me that there are a bit too many little rules that combine as a whole to push Daughters into being too good.  But if I had to pick a single thing it would be the Hag Queen.  That single model stands out as being far too good at just about everything and costing practically nothing.  Despite my general hatred of Elves I quite like the Daughters of Khaine.  But I think they need to have some limits put onto their tool-box.