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S133arcanite

AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

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I was trying to find a way to make Savage Big Stabbas fit in as allies, but I don't think there's any role they can fill that something inside the allegiance doesn't already do (in this case, the Rockgut Trolls do about the same thing).

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6 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Bonesplitters add nothing to the army and none of there spells and abilities affect us

Minor point, but worth noting...if you ally Moonclan into Bonesplitterz, you can benefit from their Kunnin Beast Spirits spell because that doesn't specify Bonesplitterz.  

You can create a nice slippery Allied unit between that, the netters, Geminids etc.

Agreed that I can't see much use for Allies coming into the army though.  Like you said, maybe Gitmob's superior shooting...I love 60 Gitmob Archers, but then you're losing the opportunity to recycle them or use Hand of Gork.  I have seen it pointed out that Gitmob Archers / Chukkas will also stand to benefit from the minuses to save we can put out, which helps make them even more effective.  I'm still not sure I'd go there, but it's probably the main thing I would consider currently.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yep, I think that's a well put answer and sums it up nicely!

I guess there is also the Spider wizard on foot.  I didn't see much use fot him at first glance, but he's actually a really nice inclusion in the book.  Gives you cheap access to the (amazing) Spiderfang spell lore, benefits from the A-Rok magic bubble and is a good use for kits where you make a flinga / deep striker.  I reckon we'll see a few of them kicking around in Spiderfang armies.

Totally agree on the flexibility in this book, you could be writing and playing armies for years to come.  It's amazing.  

Yeah i love the inclusion of the Webspinner Shaman on foot, but as you said hes gonna be more popular in Spiderfang lists (nearly put dang then.... pretty sure we dont want to see spider dangs everywhere....*shudder*). If the Fungoid wasnt an entry in the book honestly id actually pick the Webspinner over the Madcap in a generic list! Now you might be saying "Ekrund there are no spiders in your list?!" we yes that is true but the Spiderfang lore is pretty damn good and thats because of two spells, Sneaky Distractions and Curse of Da Spider God. Those two spells are so flipping good. Pair that with the Shroomancers spell and the Moonface Mommet and you will make any unit in the game fail their armour saves! He also ignores wounds and MWs on 5s... but because hes is in competition with the Fungoid and more importantly the Loonking and Arok Shaman, he kinda doesnt really have a place in a list (except Spiderfang).

The last wizard we have is Zarbag! Now i actually like him. He is the only caster to keep his once per game +2 to cast that all our shamans used to have and im just annoyed that they changed that but it would be crazy with the badmoon haha! So saying that under the moon he gets +3 to cast one spell. So this guy is your endless spell caster or key crucial spell caster. He is tougher (by 1 wound) than a normal shaman and his melee isnt actually that bad, hes a single Brutes worth of attacks in CC. I actually love his own built in spell even though it hard to use, nut forcing someone to move is always good and in those rare cases of surrounding the unit you can cause d6 MWs in addition to all the other ways that he can do it. I just wish you could take him by himself for 80pts though, like theres nothing wrong with his Gitz, its just that 160pts is still alot in a 2k game, its 16% if your list. 

Edited by Ekrund Oath Splitters
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10 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Minor point, but worth noting...if you ally Moonclan into Bonesplitterz, you can benefit from their Kunnin Beast Spirits spell because that doesn't specify Bonesplitterz.  

You can create a nice slippery Allied unit between that, the netters, Geminids etc.

Agreed that I can't see much use for Allies coming into the army though.  Like you said, maybe Gitmob's superior shooting...I love 60 Gitmob Archers, but then you're losing the opportunity to recycle them or use Hand of Gork.  I have seen it pointed out that Gitmob Archers / Chukkas will also stand to benefit from the minuses to save we can put out, which helps make them even more effective.  I'm still not sure I'd go there, but it's probably the main thing I would consider currently.

Yeah i new about that, its just then it wouldnt be a Gloomspite Git army anymore, itd be Bonesplitter 😉

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I've got a few Rock Lobbas built out of extra Arachnarok Howdahs, crewed by Forest Goblin crew, that could maybe find an ally spot just because they meet the theme and can sideways benefit from enemy de-buffs.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

I've got a few Rock Lobbas built out of extra Arachnarok Howdahs, crewed by Forest Goblin crew, that could maybe find an ally spot just because they meet the theme and can sideways benefit from enemy de-buffs.

I think that would be awesome!

Tbh Spiderfang would probably benefit the most from Gitmob allied artillery. As whilst Spiderfang are renown for there MWs they have a surprising lack of rend on there attacks. So a couple rock lobbas or spear chukkas can help massively in that department and you wont really have to be scared about retaliation either as you have a wave of spiders skittering across the table so they have bigger worries at hand. Knocking out key support characters early can be huge for Spiderfang.

Edited by Ekrund Oath Splitters

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On 1/7/2019 at 7:32 PM, Gumbalina said:

What does everyone think of squigs with the buffs they have received? Double the attacks and handler meat shields for the cost of d3 damage.  All for the same cost as before.  4 handlers and 20 squigs for 280pts could be quite a good little unit

That's only if you max out the Squigs Herd unit previously; each unit of 5 squigs was 60 points and the herders were 20 for 2 grots with 1 wound each. It was 80 points for 12 wounds. 

And previously you can have more herders and share them between a few units of Squigs.

Because they were different units, there was always the problem that your Squigs charge into combat but your herders were too far away for the +1 to hit rolls. 

It's now just a really cheap mediocre  battleline at 70 pts for 12 wounds. The Squigs Hoppers are much better now at 90pts.

If you have them, it will be best if this unit is kept 6" away from friendlies, the potential of getting shot at and you failing your battleshock is very high.

You don't wanna waste a command point on them to auto pass the battleshock to prevent friendly damage. 

But at the same time that's so Orcs and Goblins! Miss the good old failing animosity infighting.

However I would argue that the reduction in Damage output is debatable. The overall synergy with the Loonboss on Mangler/Squig command ability is very good. 

I think a good usage will be as a solo suicide unit running up a flank/empty area and be disruptive, their special ability is self-destructive. 

They need a big number for the ability to shine but I personally find that it is too expensive for the damage, you lose models just to deal damage. 

The Squigs Hoppers are much better at that, the Squigs Knights are also awesome. I think they are going to be the most popular units with Moonclan.

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1 hour ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Speaking of allies i cant really find a use for them in Gloomspite Gits.... Bonesplitters add nothing to the army and none of there spells and abilities affect us, Greenskins its only really chariots that provide any worth with there MWs on the charge and there reasonably durable profile for there cost but we have squigs for that role so that leaves us with Gitmob who have great shooting through there artillery pieces and the better archers using Sneaky Stabbing but they are quite expensive and we dont have ways to trade buffs to one another, the only thing we can do is create a LoS blocking shield for the war machines using the Sporesplattas.

Imo the gitmob Archers are better list fillers than shootas, at 30 points less they do exactly the same thing. With how easy it is for us to hit the battleline requirements you're unlikely to need shootas for that.

6 hours ago, PUFNSTUF said:

For those going squig heavy, I am finding it hard to not want to include Skagrot as the general for the tools he brings. Extra command points for squiggle runs, moon placement for run and charge. Down side is losing out on hopper battleline. Anyone else going to use him instead of a loonboss on squig?

Squig herds are battleline if you have a Moonclan General. So you can grab 3 squig herds at 210 points for the cheapest way to fill the battleline and they all have the squig keyword. Yes you'd rather have another 15 hoppers but that's the price you pay for Skarsnik *cough* Skragrott.

On the wizard front I honestly don't think any of them are bad, they each have a niche. 

  • Skragrott may compare favourably to double fungoid BUT that's only if he's your general. If you're taking him as a bonus wizard it becomes a lot closer of a comparison.
  • For 10 points the Fungoid is a way better carrier for the Arachnocauldron than a Madcap shaman.
  • Madcap is the cheapest wizard and has access to the Madcap specific artefacts (which the fungoid does not)
  • Zarbag comes with a cheap chaff unit, a good unique spell and has the Sniffersprite +2 to cast rather than second spell (Once/game)
  • Troggoth Hag is obviously terrifying with the rules updates and has an amazing personal spell.
  • Arachnarok Shaman is 2 spells and a combat monster who excels at carrying the Arachnocauldron
  • Webspinner Shaman has access to the Spiderfang lorewhich has Venomous Spiderlings and Curse of Da Spider God.

So yeah in conclusion, GW has absolutely nailed the wizard options for Gloomspite Gitz. They each have a roll and a purpose whatever style force your bringing.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mayple said:

@Malakree

What do you think about the Gobbapalooza wizards?

I think the Gobbapalooza is a different kettle of fish because it fits in a very specific type of list. You are bringing the set of 5 as a buff piece for a Moonclan Grot army. Yes the function alright as wizards but they can't take a choice from the spell lore. As such I don't really class them as "Wizards" the way you do the heroes.

Gobbapalooza Detachment - 860
Loonboss (70)
60 Stabbas (360)
Gobbapalooza (240)
Sporesplatta Fanatics (120)
Sneaky Snufflers (70)

This is when you take the Gobbapalooza. The 60 Stabbas now make 180 attacks, with 5+/2+/-/1 Rerolling all failed hits, wound rolls of a 1, Unomdified 6s to wound do a mortal aswell and they auto pass battleshock. If we check that against a 3+ save rerolling failed we get.

graph.php?q=r:523:90:1:m313;r:523:90:1:m

Meaning on average you should kill ~14 sequitors who are rerolling saves with Staunch defender.

This is ignoring that the Shroomancer Spell also gives -1 to hit/save. Hell throw in a Troggoth Hag for her -1 hit/save spell. Now your gitz are functionally attacking at -2 rend....

So yeah. Gobbapalozza is good but you are building a list around having them rather than them being an addition to another list.

Edited by Malakree
Actually I'm wrong, see the below 2 posts ta FPC for catching it

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19 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Rerolling all failed hits

What allows Grots to reroll all hits?

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4 minutes ago, FPC said:

What allows Grots to reroll all hits?

I'm an idiot, nvm :D You caught me. I always have to remind myself that brewgit is grot hero, not grot 🙄

graph.php?q=r:523:90:1:m113;r:523:90:1:m

Ok comes out at a more reasonable ~9 sequitors killed :P  goes up to ~13 again if you get a -1 save on them.

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So yeah. Gobbapalozza is good but you are building a list around having them rather than them being an addition to another list.

I'm not sure I quite agree with that.  Yes, you can build a list around them, but they are 240 points in your post and you don't have to build the whole list around that.  I am pretty sure that I could slot 240 points into a number of lists if it provided utility and synergy with something in the list.  You don't have to dump every buff under the sun to make something a worthwhile addition to an army.  Only 2 of the buffs are specifically for grots units.  One of them is reroll runs and charges and I probably would not worry too much about building a list around allowing grot units to do that.  The other one allows reroll 1s and it is a good ability, but if I am specifically looking for grot buffs there are others I would reach for first.

Personally, I think the best abilities that the Gobbapalooza offers are the spells - which either work on all units or are enemy debuffs.  I think I could find decent use for these guys in a number of lists without feeling the need to fully build around them.  I would argue that the performance of this unit would not be changed that much by the loss of the reroll-1s ability.

Note: that if my plan is to try to take a few big Grots units and make them uber deadly then these guys would certainly be included for that purpose (as you did in your post).  But I could see using the unit in a number of cases even if I did not have the specific goal of seriously tuning up a Grots unit.

Edited by Skabnoze

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1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Imo the gitmob Archers are better list fillers than shootas, at 30 points less they do exactly the same thing. With how easy it is for us to hit the battleline requirements you're unlikely to need shootas for that.

For as long as they stick around.  Given that they are no longer sold in the store, and if it is GWs intention to no longer retain that unit, I would not at all be surprised to see their points removed from the next General's Compendium (probably all of Gitmob would be moved to legends).  But for now you are correct.

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I was thinking of the following

Skagrot

Loonboss on Mangler

60 Stabbas

6 herds

6 herds

10 bounderz

10 bounderz

1 Giant Squig

5 Loonsmashas

Squig Stampede

Should come to 2k even I believe. Issue I see is extra artifact for battalion but no one to put it on, so I could drop the stabbas to 40 and take a shaman. I like the surprise smashas out of the stabbas and having a unit to try and bring back each turn would be handy for holding backline objectives later on. Reason I like the battalion is the rr aspect so I can hopefully have the giant squig and bounders in the enemies face turn 1, with rring charges and having run rolls of 6 with the command points from Skagrot (and possible extra wizard).

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21 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Personally, I think the best abilities that the Gobbapalooza offers are the spells - which either work on all units or are enemy debuffs.  I think I could find decent use for these guys in a number of lists without feeling the need to fully build around them.  I would argue that the performance of this unit would not be changed that much by the loss of the reroll-1s ability.

Assume you aren't using a list designed to exploit them. 3 of them become worthless because the Know-Wotz stop doing anything. This then means you're functionally paying 120 points each 2 Wizards who can't take spells off the spell lore. At that point you should just take 2 fungoids....as they provide a very similar bonus for 60 points less.

If you are running the 60 Stabbas and the Gobbapalozza you've just invested 600 points. At that point the Sneaky Snufflers are a 70 point buff for any Moonclan units you might have while the Sporesplata Fanatics become a 120 point unit which blocks line of sight, has good damage, is fricking cheap AND provides the buff to your megablock. The only question really is whether you want to dump the 70 points on the Loonboss who adds around 12 mortal wounds with his CA.

I guess I'm more on the stance that once you've invested the 600 points you have to justify not just putting the other 240 in.

Hell if you want the wizards Skragrott is 20 points less and easily better....

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1 minute ago, Malakree said:

Assume you aren't using a list designed to exploit them. 3 of them become worthless because the Know-Wotz stop doing anything. This then means you're functionally paying 120 points each 2 Wizards who can't take spells off the spell lore. At that point you should just take 2 fungoids....as they provide a very similar bonus for 60 points less.

If you are running the 60 Stabbas and the Gobbapalozza you've just invested 600 points. At that point the Sneaky Snufflers are a 70 point buff for any Moonclan units you might have while the Sporesplata Fanatics become a 120 point unit which blocks line of sight, has good damage, is fricking cheap AND provides the buff to your megablock. The only question really is whether you want to dump the 70 points on the Loonboss who adds around 12 mortal wounds with his CA.

I guess I'm more on the stance that once you've invested the 600 points you have to justify not just putting the other 240 in.

Hell if you want the wizards Skragrott is 20 points less and easily better....

I never said not to take grots.  I said you don't necessarily have to always go all-in and dump the kitchen sink into buffing a massive block of grots.  It has it's place, sure, but you don't always have to do that.  None of these buffing units are bad at all, but do we always need all of them?  I don't think so.  As for using other wizards - sure I like them too.  However, using the other wizards instead of these guys means that you don't get these specific spells.  I could see a case where I would specifically want some of these spells.  My point is just to not get too focused on the huge package to rule out possible alternate use with less pieces.

In regards to the math, did you do your calculations for the full unit being in combat?  I'm reading this at night after a couple more than a few glasses of Cap'n Morgans and I don't quite get the legend for the graphs.  How many models is this assuming actually get to fight?  I'm not questioning how good the grots are when you go all-in on buffs for the unit - I am simply trying to understand those charts in my semi-addled state.  🤪

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24 minutes ago, Malakree said:

This then means you're functionally paying 120 points each 2 Wizards who can't take spells off the spell lore.

Was this confirmed anywhere?  My understanding was that they do have the wizard keyword which should give them access to a spell off of the spell lore.  I don't have their warscroll on hand so I can't tell if they worded them differently.  This thread moves pretty fast so maybe something came up that I missed in regards to these guys.  I know they do not have the Hero keyword but I thought that 2 of them did have the Wizard keyword.

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1 minute ago, Skabnoze said:

I never said not to take grots.  I said you don't necessarily have to always go all-in and dump the kitchen sink into buffing a massive block of grots.  It has it's place, sure, but you don't always have to do that.  None of these buffing units are bad at all, but do we always need all of them?  I don't think so.  As for using other wizards - sure I like them too.  However, using the other wizards instead of these guys means that you don't get these specific spells.  I could see a case where I would specifically want some of these spells.  My point is just to not get too focused on the huge package to rule out possible alternate use with less pieces.

In regards to the math, did you do your calculations for the full unit being in combat?  I'm reading this at night after a couple more than a few glasses of Cap'n Morgans and I don't quite get the legend for the graphs.  How many models is this assuming actually get to fight?  I'm not questioning how good the grots are when you go all-in on buffs for the unit - I am simply trying to understand those charts in my semi-addled state.  🤪

Assume the buffs, and all the grots get to attack so a full 180. I actually ignored the netters. Line above is chance to get a given damage point (so exactly X) while the one below is chance to get at least that much (so X+).

Honestly IMO the Gobbapalooza is the weakest part of the setup but the RR1's to wound helps massively with the Loonboss CA.

You need at least 1 unit of Stabbas to make them worth taking imo as there just isn't any other Moonclan Grot units. The -1 hit/save is obviously really nice but why would you not just invest another 140 points to take a Hag instead, it is casting value 7 instead of 6 but is range 12" instead of 8"

1 minute ago, Skabnoze said:

Was this confirmed anywhere?  My understanding was that they do have the wizard keyword which should give them access to a spell off of the spell lore.  I don't have their warscroll on hand so I can't tell if they worded them differently.  This thread moves pretty fast so maybe something came up that I missed in regards to these guys.  I know they do not have the Hero keyword but I thought that 2 of them did have the Wizard keyword.

So the video I use to check these things is here.

If you check on the top left above the spell lore it says.
 

Quote

You can choose one spell from the following tables for each Gloomspite Gitz Wizard Hero in a Gloomspite Gitz army.

So since they don't have the hero keyword they can't chose a spell from the lore.

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5 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So since they don't have the hero keyword they can't chose a spell from the lore.

Ah, that explains that.  Thanks for the reference.

I agree that they are the least effective part of the combo if all you are looking at is what the unit can do for a single massive unit of grots in combat.  But, they offer a variety of buffs that work in various situations and targets and you can spread them out (at least I think they all operate independently).  They strike me more as a general utility unit that you use for a variety of roles.  They are a multi-tool rather than a screwdriver.

In regards to the Gobapalooza, I the thing that I don't like currently about them is that the Brewgit appears to have very limited targets for his ability since it seems to require Moonclan Grot Hero as the target condition.  I kind of wish it either required Moonclan Hero or Grot Hero.  Right now it seems to exclude most of the combat heroes that you would want it on:  Loonboss on Mangler, Loonboss on Great Cave Squig, Scuttleboss on Gigantic Spider, any Hero on the Arachnarok.  The only targets it seems to have is the Loonboss on foot and the Loonboss with Giant Squig pet.  Hopefully there is another interaction there for him that I am missing.

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16 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Assume the buffs, and all the grots get to attack so a full 180. I actually ignored the netters. Line above is chance to get a given damage point (so exactly X) while the one below is chance to get at least that much (so X+).

Why run the numbers on all grots attacking?  I think that really gives a skewed opinion of the unit to some people since you are unlikely to ever get a full unit to attack - ever.  I would either run the numbers in sets of 10 grots attacking or as a block of 20-25.  The 20-25 is generally what you will most likely get engaged in most combats for a large unit with spears against many opponents.  Or if you do the math in 10s and keep the fractional remainder in the final result you can expand that out for a variety of situations.

I'm not arguing the math you generated - but more the value of a best case vacuum situation that nobody is likely to ever really pull off.  Sorry, this is my engineer side taking over.  Theoretical max values don't mean much compared to the real-world situations that pop up the vast majority of the time.

 

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8 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Ah, that explains that.  Thanks for the reference.

I agree that they are the least effective part of the combo if all you are looking at is what the unit can do for a single massive unit of grots in combat.  But, they offer a variety of buffs that work in various situations and targets and you can spread them out (at least I think they all operate independently).  They strike me more as a general utility unit that you use for a variety of roles.  They are a multi-tool rather than a screwdriver.

In regards to the Gobapalooza, I the thing that I don't like currently about them is that the Brewgit appears to have very limited targets for his ability since it seems to require Moonclan Grot Hero as the target condition.  I kind of wish it either required Moonclan Hero or Grot Hero.  Right now it seems to exclude most of the combat heroes that you would want it on:  Loonboss on Mangler, Loonboss on Great Cave Squig, Scuttleboss on Gigantic Spider, any Hero on the Arachnarok.  The only targets it seems to have is the Loonboss on foot and the Loonboss with Giant Squig pet.  Hopefully there is another interaction there for him that I am missing.

Yeah, I love the Gobbopalooza, but Brewgit seems to be the weak link. He could make a basic Loonboss fairly killy, but he feels a bit like a tax compared to the others.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

Yeah, I love the Gobbopalooza, but Brewgit seems to be the weak link. He could make a basic Loonboss fairly killy, but he feels a bit like a tax compared to the others.

I think he is great for when you want to run the Skarsnik model (which I very much want to do in some lists).  Unless I read his ability wrong he would apply to the Squig attacks on that warscroll - so you would get the bonus for all 8 attacks.  But other than that he does seem like the weak link.  Basically something nice you get if you have a Loonboss in the list, nearby, and moving into combat.

Such a shame since the Brewgit is a pretty fantastic model.  I really love the grumpy-looking git.  But, I will probably buy an extra Gobbapalooza box simply for conversion use and I am sure with enough alcohol I can come up with a fun project for the guy.

Edited by Skabnoze

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16 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

 

In regards to the Gobapalooza, I the thing that I don't like currently about them is that the Brewgit appears to have very limited targets for his ability since it seems to require Moonclan Grot Hero as the target condition.  I kind of wish it either required Moonclan Hero or Grot Hero.  Right now it seems to exclude most of the combat heroes that you would want it on:  Loonboss on Mangler, Loonboss on Great Cave Squig, Scuttleboss on Gigantic Spider, any Hero on the Arachnarok.  The only targets it seems to have is the Loonboss on foot and the Loonboss with Giant Squig pet.  Hopefully there is another interaction there for him that I am missing.

he can allow a hero to reroll their Range attacks too, of course the only relevant hero for that is the Loonking and Skarsnik with his swingy d6 attack prodder, it still weak but it probably the most relevant use.

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1 minute ago, novakai said:

he can allow a hero to reroll their Range attacks too, of course the only relevant hero for that is the Loonking and Skarsnik with his swingy d6 attack prodder, it still weak but it probably the most relevant use.

I honestly would not overly mind if they reworded him so his buff only affected the grot and not a mount and then they expanded him to work on most heroes.  Obviously his buff would be better if it worked on all the attacks of a model, but I think what bothers me the most is just how few targets the buff has.

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