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S133arcanite

AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

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13 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

In terms of troggoth hordes I'm just looking for ways to buff troggoth lists that won't break the unit for anything else.

Now onto why dankholds need a significant point drop:

Troggoth melee average damage comparison

3 Fellwater:

Vs 4+ 7.11 damage

Vs 3+ 5.33 damage

Vs 2+ 3.56 damage

3 Rockgut

Vs 4+ 6.67 damage

Vs 3+ 5.33 damage

Vs 2+ 4 damage

1 Dankhold:

Vs 4+ 3.89 damage

Vs 3+ 3.11 damage

Vs 2+ 2.33 damage

 

Then you can factor in special abilities like the rock throw, grab, and vomit but unless you're grabbing models with 3+ wounds, it will only even out the damage disparity. This isn't even getting into the damage variance of these guys, 3 d6 damage attacks is horribly incinsistent.

Dankholds are also not durable at all. They are currently 10 wounds with a 4+ save is the equivalent of 5 Ardboyz or 5 chaos warriors(which will actually put out similar damage as the troggoth club) even at 170 these guys are way too inefficient. Spell resistance is pointless on a unit that is little more than a speedbump.

Rockguts (definitely) and fellwaters(arguably) are more durable than dankholds, while dealing similar to more damage and having way better wound efficiency. I can't see dankholds being remotely usable until they cost the same, or less than rockguts and fellwaters.

 

 

I'd prefer a warscroll change, but a points drop would be welcome, esp a horde discount.

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5 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

In terms of troggoth hordes I'm just looking for ways to buff troggoth lists that won't break the unit for anything else.

Now onto why dankholds need a significant point drop:

Troggoth melee average damage comparison

3 Fellwater:

Vs 4+ 7.11 damage

Vs 3+ 5.33 damage

Vs 2+ 3.56 damage

3 Rockgut

Vs 4+ 6.67 damage

Vs 3+ 5.33 damage

Vs 2+ 4 damage

1 Dankhold:

Vs 4+ 3.89 damage

Vs 3+ 3.11 damage

Vs 2+ 2.33 damage

 

Then you can factor in special abilities like the rock throw, grab, and vomit but unless you're grabbing models with 3+ wounds, it will only even out the damage disparity. This isn't even getting into the damage variance of these guys, 3 d6 damage attacks is horribly incinsistent.

Dankholds are also not durable at all. They are currently 10 wounds with a 4+ save is the equivalent of 5 Ardboyz or 5 chaos warriors(which will actually put out similar damage as the troggoth club) even at 170 these guys are way too inefficient. Spell resistance is pointless on a unit that is little more than a speedbump.

Rockguts (definitely) and fellwaters(arguably) are more durable than dankholds, while dealing similar to more damage and having way better wound efficiency. I can't see dankholds being remotely usable until they cost the same, or less than rockguts and fellwaters.

 

 

There are factors that need to be considered like power per square inch and autonomy, which are both better with the Dankhold. I'm not saying that they're the superior choice, only that they have opportunities to work well in certain circumstances. 3 Dankholds take up much less space than 9 Rockguts and can more easily control blocks of infantry with their crushing grip and smaller pile in footprint; this also makes for less enemy models striking back. I also would not discount their 4+ magic immunity, as Endless spells used as speed-bumps are extremely prevalent.

Dankholds would be a viable choice for tackling the likes of Chaos Warriors and other elite infantry, while I would choose Rockguts for most other things. Another thing that is easily overlooked is that you're comparing 3 of one troggoth to 1 of another; the Dankhold can fight at maximum capacity while 2 lesser trolls will be dead if the same damage is taken, this is a better comparison than if they were in a vacuum, because the vacuum doesn't take the rest of the game into account. An example is my last game, where my Rockguts were getting pounded by artillery and lost models, but eventually made it into combat: that unit lost effectiveness and it showed, however Dankholds can fight at maximum capacity for longer before they are slain. The Rockguts lost effectiveness as they lost wounds; Dankholds will not.

There's lots of non-stat factors to consider when pricing units.

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13 minutes ago, Dankboss said:

There are factors that need to be considered like power per square inch and autonomy, which are both better with the Dankhold. I'm not saying that they're the superior choice, only that they have opportunities to work well in certain circumstances. 3 Dankholds take up much less space than 9 Rockguts and can more easily control blocks of infantry with their crushing grip and smaller pile in footprint; this also makes for less enemy models striking back. I also would not discount their 4+ magic immunity, as Endless spells used as speed-bumps are extremely prevalent.

Dankholds would be a viable choice for tackling the likes of Chaos Warriors and other elite infantry, while I would choose Rockguts for most other things. Another thing that is easily overlooked is that you're comparing 3 of one troggoth to 1 of another; the Dankhold can fight at maximum capacity while 2 lesser trolls will be dead if the same damage is taken, this is a better comparison than if they were in a vacuum, because the vacuum doesn't take the rest of the game into account. An example is my last game, where my Rockguts were getting pounded by artillery and lost models, but eventually made it into combat: that unit lost effectiveness and it showed, however Dankholds can fight at maximum capacity for longer before they are slain. The Rockguts lost effectiveness as they lost wounds; Dankholds will not.

There's lots of non-stat factors to consider when pricing units.

There are other factors, but that goes both ways, large unit footprints can be tough to get into combat, but are excellent for holding objectives, which is a big part of why the game favors hordes at the moment plus fellwaters and rockguts are on 50mm bases with a 2 inch reach. 50mm is just under 2 inches. The dankhold also dies 2 wounds earlier.

 

What I'm trying to get at is I really don't think the dankholds can justify having a higher price tag than the other variants. I think they belong at the same cost, because when I weigh the pros and cons they seem pretty equal to me, except for the 50-60 point difference in favor of rockguts and fellwaters.

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30 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I'd prefer a warscroll change, but a points drop would be welcome, esp a horde discount.

Warscrolls dont get changed during Generals Handbooks, only points.

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22 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

There are other factors, but that goes both ways, large unit footprints can be tough to get into combat, but are excellent for holding objectives, which is a big part of why the game favors hordes at the moment plus fellwaters and rockguts are on 50mm bases with a 2 inch reach. 50mm is just under 2 inches. The dankhold also dies 2 wounds earlier.

 

What I'm trying to get at is I really don't think the dankholds can justify having a higher price tag than the other variants. I think they belong at the same cost, because when I weigh the pros and cons they seem pretty equal to me, except for the 50-60 point difference in favor of rockguts and fellwaters.

The reason I say 170 for now is that GW don't tend to make such massive drops in one go; it'll take another year if it were to reach 150. Now, I would absolutely want them to be 150, but 170 is the best we can hope for this time around.

At the end of the day, we're both right about their pros and cons. Although at 170, they wouldn't be a stab in the foot.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

Warscrolls dont get changed during Generals Handbooks, only points.

Well, apart from Thunderers, but I'm not really expecting any warscroll changes in the GHB.  I'm sure they have other things to put in the blank pages where the Allegience Abilities used to be.

Edited by Aelfric

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5 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Well, apart from Thunderers, but I'm not really expecting any warscroll changes in the GHB.  I'm sure they have other things to put in the blank pages where the Allegience Abilities used to be.

They only change warscroll that affect the good development of the game like Plague Monks or Thunderers. Dankhold are big support guys with the objective of hunt small heroes or elite units. They aren't units to capture objectives or fight core units.

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47 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

They only change warscroll that affect the good development of the game like Plague Monks or Thunderers. Dankhold are big support guys with the objective of hunt small heroes or elite units. They aren't units to capture objectives or fight core units.

That may be so, but whatever their role might be, they are not points efficient for the task.  Both of the other Troggoth units, Fellwater and Rockgut, are better at these tasks than Dankhold Troggoths and for far fewer points.  I'd be happy with a points drop, which would at least put them in contention.  I would love to field a unit of 3, but it's just not viable at the moment.

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New battle report is here. Check it out! Subscribe, Hit Like and most importantly ENJOY!!! 

 

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Posted (edited)

Looking to start a GG army based around Stabbas and Fanatics. At 2000 points, I want to include Skragrott as my general which means that my regular Loonboss's command ability will only have a 12" wholly within range. How hard is it to make the Loonboss (non-general) stick to a unit of 60 Stabbas to be able to use his command ability on them, in practice?

Edited by DanteeChaos

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You can juast stick him in the middle. Something like this:

 

sssssssss

sssssssss

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ssssssss

ssssssss

 

The open trail in front of the Loonboss is needed so that the Loonboss can first run, then the unit of Stabbas will run behind. That way the Stabbas won´t outrun him.

 

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Hi,

Long time lurker, first time poster here! 

Forgive me if this has been asked before (I can't find it if it has). Does anyone know how tall the gw mangler squig model is, including the gitz and gubbins that sit on top? 

I'm asking because I tend to magnatize  my models for storage and transport and I need to make sure that it will fit in my box before I buy the kit!

Thanks

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1 hour ago, Bigtimewizard said:

Does anyone know how tall the gw mangler squig model is, including the gitz and gubbins that sit on top?

Hi, from bottom base to tip of the rider weapon, I see a little more than 14cm. count 15cm to be sure not scratching it.

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3 hours ago, RedMax said:

Hi, from bottom base to tip of the rider weapon, I see a little more than 14cm. count 15cm to be sure not scratching it.

Thanks for measuring.

Crickey! That's taller than I expected! The inside of my case is around 12-13cm I'm amazed that it is so tall! 15cm is nearly the height of an imperial knight! 

Do you think it could be much shorter if I got creative with the loonboss' weapon position?

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52 minutes ago, Bigtimewizard said:

Thanks for measuring.

Crickey! That's taller than I expected! The inside of my case is around 12-13cm I'm amazed that it is so tall! 15cm is nearly the height of an imperial knight! 

Do you think it could be much shorter if I got creative with the loonboss' weapon position?

Hmm just checked mine and if you get the weapon to point forward it could save you around 1,5 cm in its height.

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11 hours ago, Bigtimewizard said:

The inside of my case is around 12-13cm I'm amazed that it is so tall!

Sorry, let me precise that this is a Loonboss on mangler squigs that I've mesured for 14cm.

It is possible that Mangler Squigs may be little less as loonboos have his arm up in the air.

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20 Shootas: with nets, banners and gong or all with bows? 5 fewer shots feel like a reasonable percentage drop, and all the bonuses are only useful for melee.

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18 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

20 Shootas: with nets, banners and gong or all with bows? 5 fewer shots feel like a reasonable percentage drop, and all the bonuses are only useful for melee.

Command models are assumed to carry the same weapons as the unit unless specifically mentioned, so taking a gong basher and a standard bearer shouldn't lose you any shots (see core rules, section on command models). The netters do replace their bows and I gotta admit I don't think 3 netters will keep your unit of Shootas alive much longer if it gets engaged in melee. 

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9 minutes ago, Dracovski said:

Command models are assumed to carry the same weapons as the unit unless specifically mentioned, so taking a gong basher and a standard bearer shouldn't lose you any shots (see core rules, section on command models). The netters do replace their bows and I gotta admit I don't think 3 netters will keep your unit of Shootas alive much longer if it gets engaged in melee. 

Ah, yes, your right - the warscroll even says it's only the netters who need to replace their weapons.

So, I guess dropping those netters is giving me about 0.5 extra hits per round, vs a harder to quantify bonus to survivability if they get into melee.

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11 hours ago, a74xhx said:

So, I guess dropping those netters is giving me about 0.5 extra hits per round, vs a harder to quantify bonus to survivability if they get into melee.

I wouldn't bother trying to maximize the very unsignificant damage shootas deal. Their job mainly is to get onto objectives. Any damage they deal is a bonus. The only reason you take shootas instead of stabbas is that you can camp objectives and still dish out some wounds. 

Netters are a huge boost to melee survivability - alone the mention of netters in a unit of stabbas let opponents think twice to charge them as the tarpit risk is real. In addition netters have a "good" melee profile - they just outshine any other grot in a unit - for free. 

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So I'll be back in the UK for July+August and would really like to put together a Squig list. I know it's not the most competitive with all the random movement but I would still like to try and make a list that could feasibly go 3-2 at a 2 Day event without losing the essence of a squig list. 

With that in mind, I was wondering if there were any non-squig units that I should really consider adding in to make the list just a little bit more reliable.

My first thought was the Loonking for his spell casting, command point gain and most importantly his ability to guarantee a board wide Bad Moon for the Run + Charge. Are there any other non-squig units you'd recommend for some added reliability?

Thanks in advance.

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7 hours ago, VonSmall said:

So I'll be back in the UK for July+August and would really like to put together a Squig list. I know it's not the most competitive with all the random movement but I would still like to try and make a list that could feasibly go 3-2 at a 2 Day event without losing the essence of a squig list. 

With that in mind, I was wondering if there were any non-squig units that I should really consider adding in to make the list just a little bit more reliable.

My first thought was the Loonking for his spell casting, command point gain and most importantly his ability to guarantee a board wide Bad Moon for the Run + Charge. Are there any other non-squig units you'd recommend for some added reliability?

Thanks in advance.

Obviously Loonking you already mentioned, but both the fungoid and madcap are decent options as well. The madcap's main appeal over the fungoid is the moonface mommet if you have an extra artifact since it can give a unit a -1 to save and both can take squig lure.

If you're running squig hoppers to try to use their flyover ability prismatic palisade is useful since if you roll well enough you can fly over it, hit the unit you want to, then retreat back over the palisade. This can also be done with regular terrain but depending on the matchup palisade might be more consistent.

If you feel you need an anvil consider some troggoths, both fellwater and rockgut can be durable. If you don't mind allies 30 savage orruks only costs 300 points, has 60 wounds, and has a 5+ save in melee. A Wardokk could fit in too at 80 points and on a 3+ could give the savage orruks a 4+ save in melee.

Loonsmasha fanatics can actually hide in snufflers, but it definitely feels like you'd be gambling with that maneuver. Sporesplattas can help against shooting, but they'll probably die t1 against shooting armies anyways.

 

Also I've heard rumors that white dwarf 455 will feature squigs so hopefully we see some new battalions.

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The Mighty Gitz take on the Bonreapers

 

 

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So without looking at what others have done in the past, I came up with the below list. While I really like the Loonking, you need to make him the general to get him command ability meaning you lose having squig hoppers as Battleline and suddenly your drops go fro very low to much higher. The Fungoid adds a drop but gives you the Squig Lure spell and potentially the extra CP for the run move.

Does this look pretty standard? Any changes you'd make?

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (280)
- General
- Command Trait: Fight Another Day
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- Moonclan Stabba
- Artefact: The Clammy cowl
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- Moonclan Stabba
- Artefact: Backstabber's Blade
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: Squig Lure
12 x Squig Herd (140)
6 x Squig Herd (70)
5 x Squig Hoppers (90)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
Mangler Squigs (240)
Mangler Squigs (240)
Squig Rider Stampede (140)
Squigalanche (90)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 138
 

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Sorry, but any Squigalanche, isn't a competitive list for do a 3-2 in any big tournament. A good record with this type of list is a 2-3, and this is because after losing a few games you're gonna play with others lists that they aren't competitive too.

The list have this problems:
- Too many Manglers. They're fine, but they aren't Maw-Krushas or Terrorgheists.

- Boingrot are very slow, they can't do the job of fast cavalry.

- You have very few models and the save rolls are awful, and it's easy you lost half of your army versus Kharadron, Seraphon or Cities of Sigmar. You are going to have too many problems to capture objectives.

- Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig are mediocre support heroes. After you charge with your units his job is finished and he's going to die or move around the map without doing anything 

If you want to improve the list, stop trying to play the Squigalanche, remove some Manglers, add other things like a Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok, Sneaky Snufflers, Stabba+loonboss, Rockgut Troggoths... Try to make a mixed army and try to play around the objectives.

Squigalanche is one of the worse glass cannon actually, Idoneth, Khaine, Tzeentch, Seraphon are going to crush your army so easily, and you aren't enough strong to beat Bonereapers, Orruks or Chaos Ascendant.
 

Here you have a good review, I think is the best review of the Gloomspite Gitz army in youtube.

I'm not 100% agree with all the things he says or the competitive lists he show us, but it's a goof point to start.

 

 

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