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AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

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Makes Da Bad Medicine was so proud to bring home Best Sports at the 2019 Armed Forces Day tournament! 

5C6E7FAA-CB39-4ED9-95E3-3E9FD9503BFF.jpeg

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Hey guys, first post on TGA.

I just developed a nifty online tool that might help you guys with your gobbo battles in the future. 

I developed AoS Reminders. It only has Seraphon and Gloomspite Gitz for now.

Check it out here -> https://daviseford.com/aos-reminders/

Basically, you add your units, battalions, and artifacts, and you will get an ordered list of what abilities to use during which phase. It's pretty specific!

Please give it a whirl and let me know if you enjoy it! I would LOVE some feedback and critiques! Here's a look at the UI:

 

Cfh3s6i.png

 

P.S. it is print-friendly! When you hit print, all of the fancy UI elements are stripped out and you get a list like so:

SKjKbyK.png

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2 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Rapt to see Gloomspite finally get their podium at a big event!

I love net listing because I have no guilt or stress that I took the wrong list...

Time to paint 2x60 + 2x20 grots! (I’ll never paint 3 cave shams thou and would hate to just proxy with the gobbapoloza)

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Hey! Starting the army, threw together this list, and hope it looks ok!

 

Fungoid Cave-Shaman : Squig Lure

Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (General):

- Fight Another Day,

-Loonstone Talisman

Squig Herd x10

Squig Hoppers x10

Squig Hoppers x5

Boingrot Bounders x10

 

Hoping it could be the start of something competitive. I was thinking I could make a Squig/Spider list, thought I've heard those can be tricky.

 

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1 hour ago, svnvaldez said:

I love net listing because I have no guilt or stress that I took the wrong list...

Time to paint 2x60 + 2x20 grots! (I’ll never paint 3 cave shams thou and would hate to just proxy with the gobbapoloza)

Haha.

Best thing about it is, because of who it was, we'll get excellent podcast coverage on the list and event.  Can't wait to hear that.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, uratourist said:

Hey! Starting the army, threw together this list, and hope it looks ok!

Have you built them yet? I'd make all the Squig Hoppers into Boingrot Bounders and then fill the battleline with Squig Herds: would look like this using those models. Its a great start to a full 2k squig list imo.

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz

Leaders
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (300)
- General
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)

Battleline
6 x Squig Herd (70)
6 x Squig Herd (70)

Units
15 x Boingrot Bounderz (300)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)

Total: 1030 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 90

Ben Johnson just took this to a fluffy team event. But I see no reason you can't take it to a semi competitive event and be happy with what you have on the table / be competing in most match ups.

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz

Leaders
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (300)
- General
- Trait: Fight Another Day 
- Artefact: The Clammy cowl 
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- Moonclan Stabba
- Artefact: Backstabber's Blade 
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- Moonclan Stabba
- Artefact: Lunestone Talisman 

Battleline
12 x Squig Herd (140)
12 x Squig Herd (140)
5 x Squig Hoppers (90)

Units
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)

Behemoths
Mangler Squigs (240)
Mangler Squigs (240)

Battalions
Squig Rider Stampede (140)
Squigalanche (90)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146

Looks ****** beautiful as well.

D660HKWXsAEgHX7.jpg

Edited by svnvaldez
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3 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

Have you built them yet? I'd make all the Squig Hoppers into Boingrot Bounders and then fill the battleline with Squig Herds: would look like this using those models. Its a great start to a full 2k squig list imo.

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz

Leaders
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (300)
- General
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)

Battleline
6 x Squig Herd (70)
6 x Squig Herd (70)

Units
15 x Boingrot Bounderz (300)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)

Total: 1030 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 90

 

Are Hoppers really that bad? Their insane speed capability makes them seem like they'd do okay. Are they too fragile? Or do they need to be in massive hordes.

 

Also, would endless spells hold any merit in the full 2000 pt. list? The mushroom looks tempting for area denial. and I know cogs can be popular

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6 minutes ago, uratourist said:

Their insane speed capability makes them seem like they'd do okay. Are they too fragile? Or do they need to be in massive hordes.

I wouldn't say there bad... just that they are not optimal compared to the other choices in the tome. Insane speed, damage, mortals on impact can come from the bounderz. Where durability and massive hordes can come from the grots on foot.

In AOS I really think the saying "jack of all trades but master of none" comes into play a lot. That is the basic theory behind min-maxing. However, min maxing can lead to swingy match ups and un interactive games.

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10 minutes ago, uratourist said:

Also, would endless spells hold any merit in the full 2000 pt. list? The mushroom looks tempting for area denial. and I know cogs can be popular

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/ritchie-mcalley-bobo-2019/ is currently the highest placing gitz list during a 100+ player event on the globe. He took 5 wizards with 6 spells. Personally I like keeping 3 endless spells in my GS lists: Mushroom, Scuttletide, and Geminids of Uhl-Gysh.

But you can not argue with results.

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1 hour ago, uratourist said:

Are Hoppers really that bad? Their insane speed capability makes them seem like they'd do okay. Are they too fragile? Or do they need to be in massive hordes.

No, they are not bad.  I am of the opinion that they are very overlooked.  If we take the opinion that Boingrots are not overcosted (by merit of GW saying they feel the need to adjust the army in the next GHB) then Hoppers are probably a bit overpriced, but they are not a bad unit by any means.

However, they serve a different role and I think they tend to suffer in most people’s opinions due to comparing them straight up to Boingrots.  Basically the hoppers are a fast janky unit and Boingrots are a straight-forward combat unit.  In effect, hoppers are light cavalry and Bounders are heavy cavalry.  Which one works for you will depend on how you plan to use them within the broader context of your army.

Both of these units do something that the other cannot do as well.  With the GHB on the horizon soon and points cost potentially moving all over the place I would consider building 10 of each and then build the spare 5 into whichever one you prefer more.

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1 hour ago, svnvaldez said:

I wouldn't say there bad... just that they are not optimal compared to the other choices in the tome. Insane speed, damage, mortals on impact can come from the bounderz. Where durability and massive hordes can come from the grots on foot.

Bounders are many things - insane speed is not one of those things.

Hoppers are the fast unit, and Bounders are the slow one.  Bounders are knights - armored and highly damaging on the charge.  Hoppers are fast and janky.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

Bounders are many things - insane speed is not one of those things.

Hmmmm...they do have potential for insane speed. 

2D6 or 3D6 movement for Bounder and Hoppers respectively (rerollable in the Batallion) = 18"

+ 3" from the Command Ability

+ D6" run (CP forced to a 6 if required) 

+ 2D6" charge (CP rerollable, can run and charge under the moonlight / with squig lure)

39" total movement, zoooooom!

Obviously there's a lot of D6s in there, which are not always coming up 6s. 

If you have CPs and the buffs in place, you can lock in 9" + 5D6" rerollable for Hoppers, or 9" + 4D6" rerollable in the case of Boingrots.  

I actually think the speed is the main weakness of both in my opinion...you'd take 7" over 2D6" any day of the week, and even 7" is only quite good. 

The tax of taking a terrible Hero + a Batallion that does nothing else is a pretty high one, and makes the overall deal pretty unappealing. 

The unreliable movement is a hidden cost to both units that needs to be pointed in, so when people are speculating about Bounders staying the same and Hoppers coming down, I think that's where it's coming from.  You need a low and unreliable base movement discount in there.

Edited by PlasticCraic
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Posted (edited)

So cutting into the discussion again (sorry) to give some thoughts, feelings and general observations from bobo. Was a really useful weekend for me from a gaming and list building perspective.

Quick games run down. 

Game 1 is irrelevant. 
Opponent was inexperienced and inept. I helped them learn what rules I could but took the major and scored my secondary (hold all obj at the end of any of my turns) and denied theirs (Kill my troggboss).

Game 2 was against a solid shooty+defensive stormcast player on three places of power.
I deployed ok but made strategic errors which saw me spend 3 turns grinding down 20 sequiturs with my troggs. I killed his arcanum on gryph-charger with my troggboss my turn 3 but couldn't catch him on points. I could have strategically and tactically changed my play but the game would have developed so differently it's pointless to speculate. Probably my most comprehensive loss of the weekend. Scored my secondary (Kill his general with a hero) and denied his (Kill my troggboss). The only big swing is the arcarnums -2 vs shooting artefact, if skragrott had stripped it I'd have instantly won the game.

Epic game with a bunch of spotlight moments. His balista getting 3 hits and turning it into 17 hits to vape 3 fellwaters, troggboss slamming the Lord arcanum for 11 damage off 2 failed saves to kill it outright and that fecking mushroom rolling a 10" on its range.

  • Best of all was the unit of shootas who could. 20 shots into 5 evocators dealing SIX damage, killing 2, then charging in and doing another FOUR with slittas killing a third!

Game 3 was against kroak, 2 engines and some grots, sorry skinks
I got greedy and deployed wrong on total commitment. Kroak then proceeded to starcall both my spear chukkas crews for 3 mw a piece leaving me down 240 points from turn 1. At that point I just couldn't keep up with the summoning and score the points. If I had setup differently with a slightly changed strategy I could have been in an incredibly strong position. Completely my fault. Got my secondary (have 1/3rd of my army alive) and his (Kill at least 2/3rds of my army).

This game was incredibly useful because it highlighted the weakness of my spear chukkas. I've been using them as a crutch and they've corrupted my deployment/strategy. It's the fist game the chukkas were deadweight.

Game 4 was more of a silly game
Great fun but call da moon dropped the manglerboss 5 wounds and rendered it useless with 1d6 move. I used the chukkas to remove the wizards and my troggs ripped the squigs apart. Major win in which I scored my secondary (kill 2/3rds of his army) and denied his.

Game 5 was a second gloomspite mirror in which we played for who got the high finish.
I decimated his boingrots with my shooting and neutered his manglerboss with magic (5 wounds again and skragrott stripped the artefact). In the end it came down to a couple of rolls which if I had won any of I would have taken the game, I did make some tactical errors which would have avoided this.

Very swingy but still a great game. Opponent was a lovely guy and because it was his first tournament he was understandably mental exhausted. I ended up doing a fair bit of his piling in and made sure he didn't ****** himself with rules errors. Despite that he made great tactical and strategic decisions which made it such a close game, definitely deserved his 4-1 finish.

I went into the game on 2-2 with 8/8 secondaries, my goal by that point was to claim all 10. I managed to claim mine (Kill his manglerboss) and deny his (Kill my troggboss with a hero).

Summary

The weekend was incredibly useful for me. It highlighted some serious flaws in my gitz play which are hangovers from my ironjawz.

  • It was the first weekend my bolt throwers weren't godlike.
  • Webspinner was really useful as a tool to cast scuttletide however I played a bit to defensive with him so never really got to cast venomous spiderlings at properly. It also didn't help that I faced 1 army with "hordes" and it was the final game.
  • On the other hand the mushroom was utter garbage. The range on it is just to random to justify it's 80 point cost.
  • I need to make the unit of rockguts into 6, already knew it but this hammered it home.
  • Would drop Mushroom and Webspinner for the 6 rockguts. 
  • Loonskin is really good on the troggboss.
  • The shiney wotnot didn't see any use but it's in there to counter to very specific things which I didn't face.
  • I'd love to be taking ghyrstrike or rageblade but tbh I was using him defensively most of the time so it wouldn't have mattered that much. 

My other big question from the weekend is the spearchukkas. They are great and can win games, that said those 240 points makes my stabbas a unit of 60 which would have massively swung all my games. I'm not sure which is the better option but I really don't like painting grots 😭

Edited by Malakree
On computer now so formatting
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6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Hmmmm...they do have potential for insane speed. 

Hoppers - sure.  

Yes, the Boingrots could potentially get a large movement in the case you described, but we need to reiterate just how much resources and luck that requires.  And aside from the command ability for the Loonboss most of that is available to just about any unit in the game (charge + command reroll, command ability 6” run).  I don’t think I would ever say that Boingrots have insane speed - they top out at the standard speed of fast cav (12”).  Most of the time they are going to be moving 6”-8” (without the boss speed increase) and that is solidly slower than the average speed of heavy cavalry (10”).

Boingrots are a great unit.  There is no argument there.  But we should be realistic about what they do well and what they don’t.  They are above average speed for infantry and generally slow for cavalry although they can speed up to fast cavalry levels through a combination of buffs and some luck.

Hoppers on the other hand are fairly fast.  They will average out to somewhere between heavy cavalry and fast cavalry and when they roll high they can become absurdly fast.  They have access to all the same buffs as Boingrots to make them even faster.

Despite looking similar on the surface the two units are quite different and fill different roles.  That was simply my point earlier.  When evaluating these units I don’t think it is good to mix up the advantages of the units as it will lead to some disappointment.  Hoppers are not a devastating charge unit and lack the armor for protracted combat.  Boingrots lack the high speed of hoppers and the ability to inflict damage outside of the combat phase.

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Now that I’ve got 20 bounderz built and painted I really want to get some hoppers to try harassing tricks with. Hand of Gorking them into back lines where they can hop over smaller support units is my first thing I want to try. 

One of the best things about the gitz is how MUCH there is to play around with. 

One of the worst things about the gitz is how little time I realistically have to play with the things haha

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4 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

 

Despite looking similar on the surface the two units are quite different and fill different roles.  That was simply my point earlier.  When evaluating these units I don’t think it is good to mix up the advantages of the units as it will lead to some disappointment.  Hoppers are not a devastating charge unit and lack the armor for protracted combat.  Boingrots lack the high speed of hoppers and the ability to inflict damage outside of the combat phase.

So, for my list above, do I need more boingrots? I tried to include a significant amount of hoppers for objectives and flanking, but I dont know if that pales in comparison when looking at the damage output of the bounders.

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21 hours ago, Malakree said:

Will post my own thoughts tomorrow but I thought for now this might be useful for people to see what sort of things placed where. It's the Gitz lists sorted in how they placed.

  1. 3rd Ritchie
  2. 24th Lindon
  3. 39th Seb
  4. 60th George
  5. 63rd Dan
  6. 65th Tim
  7. 82nd Nick
  8. 85th Tom
  9. 115th Tim
  10. 125th Steve
  11. 146th Sean
  12. 154th Matthew
  13. 159th Ceri
  14. 160th Graham
  15. 162 Gareth
  16. 174th Neil
  17. 180th "Bravery 1" (??)
  18. 182nd "Bish" (??)
  19. 189th El Capitan

Remember that BOBO is as much an experience as a tournament so there are people playing for different things. I personally know that one of these players was choosing which endless spells to cast by holding up the warscrolls and having his opponents do a blind choice ;) 

So the only list that did well was the very boring spam basic bodies? That doesnt bode well for the faction as a whole...I can see why GG is under performing 

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51 minutes ago, uratourist said:

So, for my list above, do I need more boingrots? I tried to include a significant amount of hoppers for objectives and flanking, but I dont know if that pales in comparison when looking at the damage output of the bounders.

I honestly can't tell you that.  In the end this is your decision to make based upon the type of army you want to play.

I am not sure anyone has really unlocked Squig Hoppers on the table yet.  Just looking at the warscrolls this is a unit whose primary phase of the game is the movement phase.  For some units (like Boingrots) the movement phase is primarily there to get them into charge range.  For other units the movement phase is there to get them onto an objective that they can hold.  My reading of Hoppers is that they fall firmly into the fast cavalry harasser unit role - although they lean a bit more to being more offensive in combat than most cavalry.  But they are a strange unit because they can inflict damage through movement - which is pretty rare in this game.  The only other units that I can think of with this ability are Hexwraiths (exact same ability but less reliable) and Terradon Riders (once per game). 

This is potentially a very useful ability - but it is janky and is going to require people to really play with and unlock.  I have not personally played enough games with them to really claim much more than theory-crafting the tactics.  That said, my hunch is that over time I think people are going to come around to Hoppers more than you currently see (especially if there is a cost reduction for them).  Boingrots are a fantastic unit - but they are heavy cavalry to the core and so their abilities and use are much more straight forward.  I have noticed a tendency in competitive games for models or factions that have powerful but straight-forward stats or abilities to be the early stand-outs and favorites for most people, but over time many competitive players begin to gravitate towards the more esoteric units that are harder to use but have a higher skill-ceiling.  I don't for a second think that Hoppers will ever replace Bounders but I think people will begin to lean towards using each for different roles depending upon how their list is constructed rather than the default position of "just take all Boingrots".  I could be wrong, but that is my hunch.

Anyways, I recommend that if you are on the fence about which to build that you proxy using both of them and then use that information to figure out what to build.  The only real difference in the kit is the heads & weapon arm of the riders - so you should be able to assemble them and leave those parts off and then play some games to figure out how to finish building them.

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13 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

So the only list that did well was the very boring spam basic bodies? That doesnt bode well for the faction as a whole...I can see why GG is under performing 

Has there really been a lot of people heavily putting the book through it's paces though?  I'm not sure there is.  I also feel that there is a huge amount of group-think going on and not a lot of people really pushing the envelope for what the various units can do.  The build where you take lots of bodies, stack debuffs, and then just camp objectives is probably the most obvious build from the book so it was natural that it would probably be the first one to do well.  I don't think the competitive pool of destruction players is that large and so it seems natural that it will take people a while to explore different facets of the book.

Goblins have historically been an army for those people who love the theme.  Lots of people had a small goblin army in the old WFB days (Battle for Skulls Pass box set helped out there), but not a lot of people played them primarily.  Gloomspite still feels too new to me to really pull in a dedicated competitive following.

We have a massive page count in this thread, but I chalk that up to our army being far cooler than anyone else's rather than necessarily being stronger competitively.

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also, I think Gloomspite is an army that tends to have a lot of Fluff bunny in a tournament (kind of like Orks in 40K), where a lot of people bring the army not to win but to have fun. so you get a lot of pure squig and Trogg list that aren't really competitive. 

I feel like Spiderfang would be better if they had a little bit more going for them in the book

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32 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I don't think the competitive pool of destruction players is that large and so it seems natural that it will take people a while to explore different facets of the book.

I'm not sure they will. I think competitive players at the core all min-max. And min-maxing is not just done with in a tome but across all tomes. If a competitive player wants to play a combat army they will take FEC. If they want to take a shooting/magic army they will take Skaven. If they want to take a balanced list they will take DoK.

35 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

The build where you take lots of bodies, stack debuffs, and then just camp objectives is probably the most obvious build from the book

The one thing GS does better than any tome is that it has a battleline unit that can be taken in 60s with inherent -1 to hits. Thus I think if competitive players are going to take GS they will take that build. If they want to play a different style they will take a different tome.

 

This is not a statement about true destro players. Good players who love destro can do well with lots of different destro builds. Squigs are good enough imo. Spiders are good enough imo. Trolls are good enough imo. All should be backed by 1 unit of 60 but there will be players winning with sub optimal lists. One thing I truly believe in is "A good player with decent lists can win... but a good player with a good list will always win"

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20 minutes ago, novakai said:

also, I think Gloomspite is an army that tends to have a lot of Fluff bunny in a tournament (kind of like Orks in 40K), where a lot of people bring the army not to win but to have fun

100% true... "greenskinz is da best"

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33 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

So the only list that did well was the very boring spam basic bodies? That doesnt bode well for the faction as a whole...I can see why GG is under performing 

It was actually an odd one because there was such a diversity of armies in general that people were constantly getting weird matchups.

That said I played my game 5 against the person who came 39th, if I'd made any of a 4+/4+ (2 attempts to get half a unit of grots back) 5+ (turn 4 priority) I'd have won the game. This would have put me ~30-35 with a soft trogg list just on the fact I scored 2 extra secondaries than him and had way more kill points than him across the tournament. I think I averaged 1.5k kill points and would have tabled 3 people had it gone to time.

I definitely agree that grots are the powerhouse of the book, my list didn't feel complete till I had the 20/20/20 and I suspect that 60/20/20 will be far better. They just give you that huge number of cheap wounds/bodies on the board.

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7 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

I'm not sure they will. I think competitive players at the core all min-max. And min-maxing is not just done with in a tome but across all tomes. If a competitive player wants to play a combat army they will take FEC. If they want to take a shooting/magic army they will take Skaven. If they want to take a balanced list they will take DoK.

A lot do, but not every player is like this.  There is variance even within competitive players.  There are people that will try to squeeze every drop of gas from the tank of something that they really like rather than going for another army.   And all it will take is a couple of trail-blazers to put on a good showing and there will be other people who will take a look that otherwise might not have.

This trend is easier to spot in games that play faster - like skirmish games.  AoS games are long endeavors and doing a whole lot of trail-blazing practice games can take a lot of effort.  But take a look at games such as Malifaux.  When that game first came out players immediately jumped onto the Guild faction because their synergies are obvious, strong, and they have high combat stats.  However, much like AoS, that game is purely objective based and so pure killing power does not necessarily win outright.  It was also a common trend for newer players to cry foul for the Guild faction and demand nerfs - even though the faction was fine.  It was simply easier to play with.  Once people got used to the game and became more expert at it you saw a lot of the competitive crowd move into the really weird crews that have very high skill-ceilings such as many Neverborn crews.  Those types of crews are very tough to use, hard to initially understand, but extremely potent once people unlocked how to use them and were experienced at the game.

This same thing will happen over the course of AoS, but I expect at a bit of a slower pace simply because a standard 2000pt game takes a lot longer to play (and is more expensive to purchase) than a skirmish game that experienced players can play in less than an hour.

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