AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, novakai said:

I seen a few battle report of people having the hopper runs around enemies or retreating from combat to proc their mortal wound ability but not really using them in melee as much

You can bounce over a unit and then charge something.  The hoppers are not bad.  They are essentially a more mobile unit of Squig Herd that can damage things they fly over.  They compare well to most Gloomspite things except for Bounders - but honestly almost nothing compares well to Bounders.

[PlasticCraic]

48 minutes ago, Newtype_Zero said:

Just wondering, how are Squig Hoppers Battleline in that list with Skragrott as the General? 

You are correct, in my head it was triggered by Moonclan General (like the Cave Squigs) but it has to be mounted.  Warscroll Builder allowed it too, so I didn't look into it any further.

You might as well drop Skragrott at that point, go for the Fight Another Day Loonboss on Mangler and embrace the insanity of an unleashed Moon!

Or you could split up the Squig Herd in the second variant to meet Battleline, but you're lacking a true roadblock at that point.

Edited March 29, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[Skabnoze]

2 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

 and embrace the insanity of an unleashed Moon!

Every Moonclan army should contain a hefty dose of insanity - otherwise you are doing it wrong.

[novakai]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

You can bounce over a unit and then charge something.  The hoppers are not bad.  They are essentially a more mobile unit of Squig Herd that can damage things they fly over.  They compare well to most Gloomspite things except for Bounders - but honestly almost nothing compares well to Bounders.

yeah Bounders are a bit nuts, I am cautions about buying too many of them until the GHB but I feel two units of ten is a good amount for right now

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

yeah Bounders are a bit nuts, I am cautions about buying too many of them until the GHB but I feel two units of ten is a good amount for right now

I agree that 2 units of 10 will probably always be a good amount to have unless you are just bonkers crazy about squigs (like me!).  Unless a huge price increase totally wrecks the unit you should be able to find good use for them in a multitude of lists.

I’lol probably end up with 50-60 or so Bounders - but that is only because I can’t really resist squigs.  I own about 30 old metal hoppers and they have never really been good in any edition of fantasy.  I love them anyways though.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Skabnoze

[Arkahn]

5 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

You might as well drop Skragrott at that point, go for the Fight Another Day Loonboss on Mangler and embrace the insanity of an unleashed Moon!

If you drop Skragrott, you must include atleast one Fungoid Cave Shaman for CPs generation, you will need a lot with both Loonboss CA, immune battleshock, 6 run... 

[PlasticCraic]

3 hours ago, novakai said:

yeah Bounders are a bit nuts, I am cautions about buying too many of them until the GHB but I feel two units of ten is a good amount for right now

I genuinely don't think they need a points increase, not when you look at what other books are doing. 

They also have a low key tax in that they have slow and unreliable movement, so there's a hidden cost there in speeding them up. 

[PlasticCraic]

2 minutes ago, Arkahn said:

If you drop Skragrott, you must include atleast one Fungoid Cave Shaman for CPs generation, you will need a lot with both Loonboss CA, immune battleshock, 6 run... 

True, although don't forget you have a couple of Batallions too. 

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

I genuinely don't think they need a points increase, not when you look at what other books are doing. 

They also have a low key tax in that they have slow and unreliable movement, so there's a hidden cost there in speeding them up. 

I agree, IMO it's more there are some other units in the book which could do with a cost reduction. Dropping hoppers to 90/300 would incentivise them as a battleline choice and make up for their reduced save/damage vs bounders, Spider Riders could probably do with being 90/500 points, shooters to 120 and the madcap shaman to 70 points.

Honestly other than a few very specific units (mainly the bigger stuff dankholds etc.) they've done a damn good job on the points. I'm not even sure that the basic Loonboss isn't pretty solid for his points, I just wish he had the Manglerbosses Redcap Mushrooms ability.

Honestly the more I look at them the less I think Bounders are overcosted, they are super charge dependent and the random movement really hurts them. Not to mention the fact they aren't battleline.

@Skabnoze 

[Entombet]

Dont think bounders will be nerfed, their movement its to random, compare them to eels ...

[RareDesire]

So I'm considering making a Gloomspite Gits army.  I like it to be so competitive as possible. 

Question 1: Are Gloomspite Gits competitive?

Question 2: Stabbers, Spiders, trolls or squigs army?

Question 3: Would a troll army be good? and what trolls are best?

Question 4: Competitive list ideas are welcome.

Thanks.  

 

[Entombet]

38 minutes ago, RareDesire said:

So I'm considering making a Gloomspite Gits army.  I like it to be so competitive as possible. 

Question 1: Are Gloomspite Gits competitive?

Question 2: Stabbers, Spiders, trolls or squigs army?

Question 3: Would a troll army be good? and what trolls are best?

Question 4: Competitive list ideas are welcome.

Thanks.  

 

Ad.1 Competetive but not top tier.

Ad.2 Grots and squigs.

Ad.3 Pure trolls. I think not but thats only personal point of view

 

 

[mikethefish]

Grots seem to lie firmly in the middle of the back.  If you are looking to dominate everyone, I would look elsewhere.  That being said, you can certainly reliably win with them.

The best combinations seem to be a solid core of Grots, combined with something else (Spiders, Trolls, etc)

Pure Trolls are not competitive in the slightest.  A Troll/Grot combo has some legs though.

My personal armies all start with two units of 60 Grots, with a couple of Loonbosses and a unit of Snufflers to support them.  After that, I add whatever I like - being some Troll units, Sqigs, or whatever I like.  

Edited March 29, 2019 by mikethefish

[Skabnoze]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

I agree, IMO it's more there are some other units in the book which could do with a cost reduction. Dropping hoppers to 90/300 would incentivise them as a battleline choice and make up for their reduced save/damage vs bounders, Spider Riders could probably do with being 90/500 points, shooters to 120 and the madcap shaman to 70 points.

Honestly other than a few very specific units (mainly the bigger stuff dankholds etc.) they've done a damn good job on the points. I'm not even sure that the basic Loonboss isn't pretty solid for his points, I just wish he had the Manglerbosses Redcap Mushrooms ability.

Honestly the more I look at them the less I think Bounders are overcosted, they are super charge dependent and the random movement really hurts them. Not to mention the fact they aren't battleline.

@Skabnoze 

I'll avoid the external unit comparisons, but internally the Bounders are by far the most superior unit in the book.  It's not any single thing but rather the entire combination of rules.  They have double the effective attacks of Hoppers (the hopper rider attack is fairly worthless) and squig herd.  The rider's attacks have enough range to fight in 2 ranks, which allows you to use them effectively in larger units.  The Hoppers suffer due to the large base size.  Their rules are simpler to use since everything about them favors the charge.  I don't think Squig Hoppers are bad by any means, but their special ability takes more effort to effectively use.  The Bounders also get elite stats due to being more experienced & wearing armor.  So they have higher bravery and the best armor save in the entire army.  They only suffer from being a bit slower than other cavalry, but they are still generally faster than most normal units in the army.  In addition, the army provides multiple ways to speed them up - which is really their only weakness aside from bravery.

Internally this is a really skewed unit.  I really really really like them - don't get me wrong.  But, I can look at the entirety of the force and notice when something is a sever outlier and Bounders stand out immensely.  I don't think anyone can argue that they are honestly the stand-out unit in the book.  Right now you basically have to talk yourself out of using them as they are the best unit to take in multiple for just about any situation.  They are similar to Sequitors which heavily skew the Stormcast army.  When one unit stands out so far in regards to both cost and abilities then either that unit is costed too low or much of the rest of the army is costed too high.  It may be the case that most of the army is costed too high, but occam's razor says that the more likely case is that something is off with Bounders.

If they leave Bounders alone and don't adjust them I won't be mad.  I am not trying to advocate that GW needs to nerf them.  I am simply looking at a system as a whole and saying that I find it likely that if they adjust the cost of anything upwards in our army it will be that unit.

I also agree with you that Spider Riders, the Madcap Shaman, and Shootas are probably all a bit overpriced.  Not so much that they really ****** anything up - but they all feel a bit high for what they bring.

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

If they leave Bounders alone and don't adjust them I won't be mad.  I am not trying to advocate that GW needs to nerf them.  I am simply looking at a system as a whole and saying that I find it likely that if they adjust the cost of anything upwards in our army it will be that unit.

I also agree with you that Spider Riders, the Madcap Shaman, and Shootas are probably all a bit overpriced.  Not so much that they really ****** anything up - but they all feel a bit high for what they bring.

Aye my take was primarily, externally they aren't OP. Internally they slightly outshine some of the alternatives, so what needs to happen to make those alternatives more competitive without them becoming broken.

90/300 isn't going to make Squig Hoppers suddenly instantly better than Bounderz, it does mean that you can take 20 of them for the price of 15 Bounders and they fill battleline. It also makes them much more competitive against the Squig Herd at 280 points for a full unit. Internally the Massive Regiment discount makes them a very good Battleline option for armies which can use them without having any other effect.

Similar to the Spider Riders although honestly they should max at units of 20 with 90/300 as well. I feel the two units fill very similar roles within their sub-factions.

[Skabnoze]

8 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I genuinely don't think they need a points increase, not when you look at what other books are doing. 

They also have a low key tax in that they have slow and unreliable movement, so there's a hidden cost there in speeding them up. 

I don't quite agree that there is a hidden cost there.  The same tools that speed up or make Bounder speed more reliable works for all/most squigs - so those costs apply equally.  The Loonboss on Giant Squig has such a potent ability that you will take at least one of him in just about every list with a fair amount of Squigs.  The Squig Lure spell also works for all squigs and is another ability you will have in almost every squig list.  Those two abilities alone make Bounder speed much less of an issue.

The Battalion is fairly expensive, but I don't really see that as necessary unless you are also angling for more relics.  Personally, I find the battalion more intriguing if you are planning to use a bunch of Hoppers as it makes them quite fast and they are a unit that you want to have as much movement as possible.  Bounders are really a pure combat unit while the Hoppers are the versatile squig cavalry unit.

[Skabnoze]

Just now, Malakree said:

90/300 isn't going to make Squig Hoppers suddenly instantly better than Bounderz, it does mean that you can take 20 of them for the price of 15 Bounders and they fill battleline. It also makes them much more competitive against the Squig Herd at 280 points for a full unit. Internally the Massive Regiment discount makes them a very good Battleline option for armies which can use them without having any other effect.

I don't necessarily disagree.

One thing I would like to say is that I get the feeling that over time people may start to like Hoppers a bit more.  The more I look at the army, especially a primary squig build, the more I don't feel that they quite compete for the same role.  That does not mean the cost is not wrong for some units, but I think that the Hoppers and Bounders are sitting in different roles.  Bounders are pretty much a pure combat unit.  They have slightly above average movement compared to normal units with the potential to swing to being either slow or fast.  But they have a variety of movement buffs that do make them faster than most normal troops.  They are not faster than most cavalry and probably should not be thought of as such.  I would think of them more as faster unit of grot brutes than as goblin gruntas.  And everything about the Bounders is geared for combat.  The Hoppers are the fast unit in the book, with above average base combat stats, more movement boosting synergy, and the ability to damage things on the move.

Bounders strike me as the your shock troops while Hoppers are there to range around on the fringes contesting/capturing objectives, attacking targets of opportunity, and being a plain nuisance.  I feel like the book is new enough that people gravitated towards the unit that is markedly superior statistically for killing stuff but has not had a chance to play around tactically with the more janky units.  Hoppers strike me as a janky unit.  I could be wrong, but that is my gut feeling.

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I don't necessarily disagree.

One thing I would like to say is that I get the feeling that over time people may start to like Hoppers a bit more.  The more I look at the army, especially a primary squig build, the more I don't feel that they quite compete for the same role.  That does not mean the cost is not wrong for some units, but I think that the Hoppers and Bounders are sitting in different roles.  Bounders are pretty much a pure combat unit.  They have slightly above average movement compared to normal units with the potential to swing to being either slow or fast.  But they have a variety of movement buffs that do make them faster than most normal troops.  They are not faster than most cavalry and probably should not be thought of as such.  I would think of them more as faster unit of grot brutes than as goblin gruntas.  And everything about the Bounders is geared for combat.  The Hoppers are the fast unit in the book, with above average base combat stats, more movement boosting synergy, and the ability to damage things on the move.

Bounders strike me as the your shock troops while Hoppers are there to range around on the fringes contesting/capturing objectives, attacking targets of opportunity, and being a plain nuisance.  I feel like the book is new enough that people gravitated towards the unit that is markedly superior statistically for killing stuff but has not had a chance to play around tactically with the more janky units.  Hoppers strike me as a janky unit.  I could be wrong, but that is my gut feeling.

Heavy Cavalry vs Light Cavalry is the comparison you're looking for  

[Skabnoze]

4 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Heavy Cavalry vs Light Cavalry is the comparison you're looking for  

Sort of.

Maybe in the context of Gloomspite, but I honestly don't think either of those units fits quite into those roles.  If we use the old WFB roles of those 2 forces then Heavy Cavalry was still quite a bit faster than standard foot troops before any potential buffs.  In AoS bounders are only really slightly faster than foot troops on average.  They can swing to be slower or much faster, but on average they are not going to massively outrun troops on foot.  They do fight very well in combat and drastically increase on the charge - so they fare well in that comparison.  Light Cav used to be extremely fast but only good for harassment or as chaff.  Light Cav almost universally could not fight their way out of a paper bag.  Hoppers are quite fast on average, but they fight a lot better than most light cav ever could. 

So yeah, your comparison is probably fairly accurate.  I guess I was just trying to say that while both units do conceptually fit that mold I also think there is a bit more to it for Gloomspite.  Also, the way that AoS is structured with units and core rules makes roles like heavy/light cav not mean quite as much (at least to me) as they once did.

I guess I am thinking too much.

[novakai]

I feel like Spider rider are more like Light cav then both squig variants. The squig rider feel like flying infantry squads TBH

[Sonic]

So just so I get this right, if you use hoppers and bounders and can get squigalanche to work (light of the bad moon), then you can place units so that the enemy have no chance to swing first even if they have CA's or artifacts that make them attack first?

You just have to be very tactical so as not to pull in those enemy units when they pile in.

[Amradiel]

I'm thinking about going to a competitive 1k event in may.  Do any of you have nasty lists at 1k? 😊

Edited March 29, 2019 by Amradiel

[Skabnoze]

3 hours ago, Amradiel said:

I'm thinking about going to a competitive 1k event in may.  Do any of you have nasty lists at 1k? 😊

I think an army that plays a lot of big Squig herds or else a full troggoth army would be good at that point level.

[Congratz]

What i some of the best 2000 point competitive list at the moment?

I have heard Skraggot is a must, and Bounderz are just crazy!
Thoughts and lists?

[Rangeltoft]

Rules question: Is it possible to stack The Clammy Hand command trait with the endless horde ability from the Skulkmob Horde Battalion?

 

And also, anyone have nice Skulkmob Horde list for 1500p that they might share?

 

/Cheers Rangeltoft