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AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion


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You both make valid points...I am one of those people who recognises the crapness of the Aleguzzler Gargant, but still uses it anyway!

I think the main point that makes the Bonegrinder a serious competitive option is the 6" pile in.  It's hard to overstate how powerful that is.  That alone makes him amazing.

In my opinion (having used both a fair bit) - both are great fun, but only the Bonegrinder is a competitive choice.

Just a couple of things to point out for anyone not aware:

 - The Bonegrinder special abilities (instakill, jump up and down) are in the combat phase.  Not in "your" combat phase.  So you get to do it in both players' turns :D  Another reason he is legit.  Give that man a Hero keyword!

- If you pile in from 6" on a Gristlegore, you will be doing so during the combat phase.  Not at the start of the combat phase.  Gristlegore has its own little window that it has to activate it (it's not optional) - once that window has passed, it's SOL.  So you won't just swing first on it, you will prevent it from swinging at all that turn.  Then if you double turn it, retreat out, rinse and repeat!

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23 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

You both make valid points...I am one of those people who recognises the crapness of the Aleguzzler Gargant, but still uses it anyway!

I think the main point that makes the Bonegrinder a serious competitive option is the 6" pile in.  It's hard to overstate how powerful that is.  That alone makes him amazing.

In my opinion (having used both a fair bit) - both are great fun, but only the Bonegrinder is a competitive choice.

Just a couple of things to point out for anyone not aware:

 - The Bonegrinder special abilities (instakill, jump up and down) are in the combat phase.  Not in "your" combat phase.  So you get to do it in both players' turns :D  Another reason he is legit.  Give that man a Hero keyword!

- If you pile in from 6" on a Gristlegore, you will be doing so during the combat phase.  Not at the start of the combat phase.  Gristlegore has its own little window that it has to activate it (it's not optional) - once that window has passed, it's SOL.  So you won't just swing first on it, you will prevent it from swinging at all that turn.  Then if you double turn it, retreat out, rinse and repeat!

Haha perhaps we will see a hero key word if they make a gargant army book!

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3 hours ago, Malakree said:

Every single one of these has some other form of save or survivability on top. 

  • Heal d3 in your hero phase, 1/3 chance to heal D6 wounds instead of dying for the first time, ignore spells on 4+
  • 5++ save (with RR saves on the warpseer, ie. the good one)
  • Heal d3 in your hero phase with 6++
  • Soul Stealer to heal wounds, 4++ vs mortals
  • Eye of Sheerian, ignore spells on 4+, 5++ vs mortals, heal on killing heroes.

Point being that EVERYTHING you've listed has more than just a flat save. Just 12 wounds with a 4+ save is essentially paper, hell a Maw-Krusha at 3+ with 14 wounds is paper vs modern books.

The vast majority of the time it's just going to get blown up. It's also why when I considered the damage output I took it at it's maximum profile despite that only being 0-2 wounds at either end as opposed to the Colossal which I dropped down a profile.

Mortals on an unmodified 6 are massive. It means that -hit hurt but not overwhelmingly, getting tabled hurts but not massively. You also have your -2 rend on the big attack which is important.

Consider what you the monster to kill.

  • Stuff with -hit, the Colossal Unmod6 Mortals mean that when you are rolling almost no hits vs things like nurgle (or grots) at least they are going straight to mortals,
  • Stuff with high armour/rerolls. Again the mortals are huge here, more importantly your key damage has the rend on it. The mangler is going to bounce off anything remotely tanky.

So the reason that 16 wounds, 5+ save, -1 hit vs melee is better than 12 wounds, 4+ save comes down a bit to meta and the current state of the game. At the moment there are 3 threats you have to consider against your monsters. Mortal Wounds, Melee and Celestial Ballistas.

  1. Against mortal wounds 16 wounds > 12 wounds. Save is Irrelevant.
  2. Against Melee -1 hit is better than +1 save. With no rerolls they work out approximately equivalent. Against rerolls -hit is strictly better.
  3. Against a Celestial Ballista +1 save is basically meaningless, they are going to blow you up anyway. 

From a purely mathematical perspective with no rend and 1 damage attacks, it takes 24 attacks to kill a 12 wound 4+ save model, it also takes 24 attacks to kill a 16 wound 5+ save model. As you increase the rend the value of the wounds goes up and the save goes down. (18 , 19.2) - (14.4 , 16) - (12 , 16)

I'm kinda ignoring the hero monsters because they all have utility outside of just being a model (Places of Power). I agree that the Colossal isn't great, however if we are comparing like to like the colossal actually does it's job as a nut cracker unlike the mangler.

Yeah that's where my issue comes from, it's that he's not a very good bomb in the majority of common cases.

I agree fly is amazing. Problem is that if we are looking at that role (as opposed to just doing flat up comparisons) you take Boingrots or Hoppers over the Mangler everyday. 

The Bonegrinder is good unlike the Aleguzzler. Not only does he not have the stupid fall down on a double when charging he can activate and pile in from 6" away. Combine that with a range of 3" and his guaranteed threat range at full wounds is 24" (12" move, 6" run, 6" pile in) and he can easily attack over screens at things hiding behind them, yours or your opponents.

More over he is a massive threat to things like the stupid Gristlegore Terroghiest because you don't move into a 3" attack range until you activate him meaning he should always go first in combat. It also means you can do things like retreat and still fight that turn.

A ranged attack, an instikill mechanic and a real mw output method makes him a terrifying addition to a gloomspite army. Imagine him stood 4" behind a line of 60 stabbas, how do you deal with that?

I think it’s important to note that saves vs mortals are only strong in specific situations, and regen is useless if you are getting “blown up”. The mechanics like come back on death can be powerful but if done in the wrong phase (like on your turn) whatever Killed you will most likely wreck you on their turn. The 4 up save vs spells is pretty dope tho! Lol I just haven’t seen someone lose a game becuase a hell pit regenersted or came back to life, if it didn’t do its job before it died then it’s already failed you know? (This is of course just my experience and is completely anecdotal) if you are seeing a 12 wound monster with a 4up save getting blown up then most likely the thing killing you would still wreck the other above monsters. I feel like  if manglers are being wrecked in one or two turns then the above will too right? I also don’t put a lot of importance in mortal wounds that can’t be used to snipe characters as in a lot of cases regular damage is essentially then same thing (if I have a 6 up save negative one rend will be more points efficient then a mortal wound weapon for instance) I play hordes and my non horde army has shields to block mortal wounds (I love using chais warriors to screen my tzeentch wizards) so of course from my perspective mortal wounds are not that much to fear. When compared to a colossal especially against ranged armies mangler is either only a bit behind or straight up wins. Against other monsters they both sound meh when you bring up saves and stuff... now I’m just bummed out ☹️ 

of course if they do suck then I think we would all be happy to see a price drop! 180 point manglers anyone?

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3 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

When compared to a colossal especially against ranged armies mangler is either only a bit behind or straight up wins. Against other monsters they both sound meh when you bring up saves and stuff... now I’m just bummed out ☹️ 

of course if they do suck then I think we would all be happy to see a price drop! 180 point manglers anyone?

😥 sorry, part of the reason I make the arguments is to see if someone can prove me wrong. With the aleguzzler the problem stems from the stupid drunken stagger rule. The mangler has no "negative" so it's literally just finding the rights points value.

I do feel like they pegged the gloomspite book a little conservatively on points with the exception of boingrots. I honestly don't think they need a points increase, just drop everything else. 

I'm exactly the same as you when it comes to the dankhold troggoths, I love them and the models but at 220 I can't help feeling they are maybe 60 points overcosted. That's not going to stop me playing, testing and trying to make them work though!

Looking at the responses I do feel I need to make some things clear though. With regards to my posts.

  1. Firstly, in case you haven't noticed I place a lot of value on utility. That being all the little extras a model brings which aren't just damage. This means that the mangler, which is purely a beat stick, is always going to look unappealing to me. This is most certainly a playstyle preference and not everyone is going to agree.
  2. Second is to echo what was said earlier about the fly rule, I know I downplayed it but honestly one of the big strengths of the three squig units IS the fly rule. Combined with their potentially high movement it forces the opponent to act suboptimally in some ways to compensate. Used properly in conjunction with other units in the book it gives a real leg up.
  3. Third. What I've ended up doing here is very much playing devils advocate in order to show all the flaws because the playerbase as a whole can already see the positives. It's unique wound table being something you yourself brought up.
  4. Lastly. You will notice that everytime I've been bringing it up I've been trying to talk specifically about the basic mangler, not the mangler boss. This is because for all it's 60 points more you get the ability to run an artefact and use it's command ability. The fact those two things so heavily impact my view on a model should  hopefully bring into focus the first point of just how much I value utility.

Manglerboss

It's been a little buried but both @Skeekrit and I commented on how impressed we were with the squig herds at heat 1. I think they might be the unsung heroes of the new gloomspite book.This matters because unlike stabbas they have the SQUIG and I feel like we as a community haven't realised just how important it is for squig lists. Manglerbosses are the perfect compliment to a big squig herd unit, they two provide everything the other needs to really be effective. Whether that's a screen for the mangler or a hero for the inspire/RR1 to wound. 

As artefact carrying heroes the Manglerbosses also serve a similar role to the Troggboss. They provide a high wound hero to take and hold the objectives which want an artefact or wizard, this makes the mangler infinitely more useful in my opinion. To show what I mean by this here's an initial list I just cooked up.

Quote

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (300)
- General
- Trait: Fight Another Day 
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (300)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- Moon-cutta
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Madcap Shaman (80)

Battleline
24 x Squig Herd (280)
18 x Squig Herd (210)
5 x Squig Hoppers (90)

Units
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)

Battalions
Squig Rider Stampede (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 172

Only your 2 wizards don't benefit from your command abilities. You have the Fight Another Day Doppleganger Manglerboss, 172 wounds without taking stabbas/shootas and the Redcap Mushroom makes a SoJ Manglerboss a legit threat to heroes because it specifically states "Reroll ALL hit/wound rolls" not "Reroll Failed" which lets you use it to fish for those tasty D6 mortals.

Spoiler

Max profile Manglerboss on the charge with a Redcap SoJ vs a Mawkrusha with Ironclad (3+ Reduce Rend by 1).

graph.php?q=r:610:5:d6:m300;r:433:5:1:m2

~50% odds to straight up kill the Ironclad Mawkrusha unless it has any other tricks.

Ultimately though it really comes down to playing the army you want, if that means 4 manglers in your list then go for it. What I'm discussing here is a lot to do with perfect optimisation and very fine levels of detail, it's how I think. I'm not always going to be right and would be more than happy for you to prove me wrong. I definitely don't think we have come close to how good Gloomspite lists can potentially be.

Edited by Malakree
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47 minutes ago, Malakree said:

😥 sorry, part of the reason I make the arguments is to see if someone can prove me wrong. With the aleguzzler the problem stems from the stupid drunken stagger rule. The mangler has no "negative" so it's literally just finding the rights points value.

I do feel like they pegged the gloomspite book a little conservatively on points with the exception of boingrots. I honestly don't think they need a points increase, just drop everything else. 

I'm exactly the same as you when it comes to the dankhold troggoths, I love them and the models but at 220 I can't help feeling they are maybe 60 points overcosted. That's not going to stop me playing, testing and trying to make them work though!

Looking at the responses I do feel I need to make some things clear though. With regards to my posts.

  1. Firstly, in case you haven't noticed I place a lot of value on utility. That being all the little extras a model brings which aren't just damage. This means that the mangler, which is purely a beat stick, is always going to look unappealing to me. This is most certainly a playstyle preference and not everyone is going to agree.
  2. Second is to echo what was said earlier about the fly rule, I know I downplayed it but honestly one of the big strengths of the three squig units IS the fly rule. Combined with their potentially high movement it forces the opponent to act suboptimally in some ways to compensate. Used properly in conjunction with other units in the book it gives a real leg up.
  3. Third. What I've ended up doing here is very much playing devils advocate in order to show all the flaws because the playerbase as a whole can already see the positives. It's unique wound table being something you yourself brought up.
  4. Lastly. You will notice that everytime I've been bringing it up I've been trying to talk specifically about the basic mangler, not the mangler boss. This is because for all it's 60 points more you get the ability to run an artefact and use it's command ability. The fact those two things so heavily impact my view on a model should  hopefully bring into focus the first point of just how much I value utility.

Manglerboss

It's been a little buried but both @Skeekrit and I commented on how impressed we were with the squig herds at heat 1. I think they might be the unsung heroes of the new gloomspite book.This matters because unlike stabbas they have the SQUIG and I feel like we as a community haven't realised just how important it is for squig lists. Manglerbosses are the perfect compliment to a big squig herd unit, they two provide everything the other needs to really be effective. Whether that's a screen for the mangler or a hero for the inspire/RR1 to wound. 

As artefact carrying heroes the Manglerbosses also serve a similar role to the Troggboss. They provide a high wound hero to take and hold the objectives which want an artefact or wizard, this makes the mangler infinitely more useful in my opinion. To show what I mean by this here's an initial list I just cooked up.

Only your 2 wizards don't benefit from your command abilities. You have the Fight Another Day Doppleganger Manglerboss, 172 wounds without taking stabbas/shootas and the Redcap Mushroom makes a SoJ Manglerboss a legit threat to heroes because it specifically states "Reroll ALL hit/wound rolls" not "Reroll Failed" which lets you use it to fish for those tasty D6 mortals.

  Hide contents

Max profile Manglerboss on the charge with a Redcap SoJ vs a Mawkrusha with Ironclad (3+ Reduce Rend by 1).

graph.php?q=r:610:5:d6:m300;r:433:5:1:m2

~50% odds to straight up kill the Ironclad Mawkrusha unless it has any other tricks.

Ultimately though it really comes down to playing the army you want, if that means 4 manglers in your list then go for it. What I'm discussing here is a lot to do with perfect optimisation and very fine levels of detail, it's how I think. I'm not always going to be right and would be more than happy for you to prove me wrong. I definitely don't think we have come close to how good Gloomspite lists can potentially be.

This list looks really good, however you don't use any new endless spells. Is it on purpose and you dont like them for reasons, or just it was a fast list cooking? 

What about the loonking? His abilities could be handy as well even if it is not your general. Would it worth to exchange the 2nd loonboss on magler to loonking + cauldron?

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5 minutes ago, SzPtr said:

This list looks really good, however you don't use any new endless spells. Is it on purpose and you dont like them for reasons, or just it was a fast list cooking? 

What about the loonking? His abilities could be handy as well even if it is not your general. Would it worth to exchange the 2nd loonboss on magler to loonking + cauldron?

Quick list to show what I was referring to, general lack of points, trying to include double artefact Manglerboss again as an example of what I meant.

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36 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

So uh troll hags RAW heal d6*2 wounds under the moon right? So this 14 wound model could come back from the brink of death?

Designers Commentary ruled this out mate, moon doesnt effect the Hags regen. 

Edited by Matt Large
Designers commentary not FAQ
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Gargant for me mostly shines in a group with players who don't get to play a lot.  His value goes down vs. experienced players.  Against unexperienced players, they either think "the internet says this thing is terrible so I can just ignore it" and you can use it to good effect, or they think "this thing is probably super good" and overcommit resources to counter it.

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8 hours ago, Malakree said:

It's been a little buried but both @Skeekrit and I commented on how impressed we were with the squig herds at heat 1. I think they might be the unsung heroes of the new gloomspite book

 

I did indeed like them a lot. I've use 1 x 24 Sheffield and 2x24 Heat 1 and I can't think of a time they underperformed from my expectations (unlike the Gargants they replaced). They are definitely along my style of play (hordes, lots of wounds, battleshock immunity near Shrine) which many people will not like (or want to paint). With the objectives in AOS2 (apart from places of power) being mostly number related having 2 wound models, with 2 attacks and small rend is great. I was initially worried about the 1" reach but with 20 models they just sit in 2 ranks of 10, and most of them can attack most of the time.

 

Oh - and they are twice as resilient as the Grots to things which cause wounds per model (ie warpfire throwers... or own own Moon)

Edited by Skeekrit
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5 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

So uh troll hags RAW heal d6*2 wounds under the moon right? So this 14 wound model could come back from the brink of death?

Look at the names of the regeneration abilities.  The ability that the Moon effects has always been named differently than what is on the Hag's warscroll.

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9 hours ago, Malakree said:

Ultimately though it really comes down to playing the army you want, if that means 4 manglers in your list then go for it. 

I'm glad you bring this up because it cannot be overstated.  We argue a lot about what are the most optimized lists, what are the best units, what is terrible, etc, but in the end what matters is that you play what you enjoy.  Everyone is different and so what that means is an individual thing.  There honestly is no right and wrong to that choice.

I think this point cannot be said enough because there are continually new people coming into the hobby and looking to those of us who are experienced to help them make the choices to maximize their enjoyment.  As someone who has played these games and been involved in the hobby for over half their life (and since before many current players were born...) I can say that the majority of people I know who have stayed in this hobby for a long time have managed to figure out how to maximize their enjoyment - whatever that is.  Most of the people that fall out of the hobby do so because they no longer find it as enjoyable as they once did (for whatever reason - life happens).

So it is nice to be able to step back from pure optimization banter to acknowledge that the most important thing is for players to do what they enjoy the most.  But it is also worth stating that you should also make an effort to compromise with opponents so that everyone at the table has a good time.  Things work out better in the long run when most players do that.

Edited by Skabnoze
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8 hours ago, Malakree said:

😥 sorry, part of the reason I make the arguments is to see if someone can prove me wrong. With the aleguzzler the problem stems from the stupid drunken stagger rule. The mangler has no "negative" so it's literally just finding the rights points value.

I do feel like they pegged the gloomspite book a little conservatively on points with the exception of boingrots. I honestly don't think they need a points increase, just drop everything else. 

I will agree with you that the Aleguzzler has issues.  But honestly, I do not think his core issue is the drunken stagger rule.  He fails about 10% of real charges due to that rule (ie: 5 or more inches).  It is a very negative rule because we as people are predisposed to remember notable events both positive and negative and drunken stagger is quite negative.  I believe that you yourself have shown through stats numerous times that his issue has more to do with his offensive stat line.  I also feel he is a little too random across the whole warscroll and that simply turns a lot of people off.  But if GW were to remove drunken stagger in an errata tomorrow I don't think the argument about the Giant being bad would go away.  I personally believe that he needs other changes.  But I have often played with Giants since 4th ed Fantasy and honestly they have always been a "fun" choice.  Sometimes they did amazing things, but often they performed below average.

As for the Boingrots cost - you may be right.  However, I find it unlikely that a single outlier would be the thing that is correct.  I don't think the Boingrots are too undercosted, but in the end I think they probably should go up a bit.  But that does not mean other stuff is not overcosted. 

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9 hours ago, Malakree said:

Ultimately though it really comes down to playing the army you want, if that means 4 manglers in your list then go for it. What I'm discussing here is a lot to do with perfect optimisation and very fine levels of detail, it's how I think. I'm not always going to be right and would be more than happy for you to prove me wrong. I definitely don't think we have come close to how good Gloomspite lists can potentially be.

Totally, what we talk about a lot is optimization which I believe is incredibly important if your goal is to win the game. But that isn't everyone's goal and it does not  have to be. I have always believed in buying and painting the models you like because they will look great on the shelf and bring you happiness regardless of how often you get to play the game. It's important to be a informed consumer and if your goal is for a model to perform well in game do not be disappointed if you did not do your homework before hand and consider optimization.

Edited by svnvaldez
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I played the entirety of last year with an optimized list and did not have a lick of fun because I wasn't using the models I like and the play style I enjoy. I also take enjoyment from winning so semi-optimization is important to me and I would not have enjoyed losing with an un-optimized list. What resulted is I played 1/3 of the tournaments that I had planned to since I was not bothered to go. 

Everyone is different. Everyone has their own goals. There is no right answer so do what you enjoy. For me that was focusing on painting because I have a deep love for this game and the models that are involved in it.

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11 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

Totally, what we talk about a lot is optimization which I believe is incredibly important if your goal is to win the game. But that isn't everyone's goal and it does not  have to be. I have always believed in buying and painting the models you like because they will look great on the shelf and bring you happiness regardless of how often you get to play the game. It's important to be a informed consumer and if your goal is for a model to perform well in game do not be disappointed if you did not do your homework before hand and consider optimization.

I think Gloomspite is probably the poster-faction for this point of view.  Remember that this is the faction of Warhammer Fantasy Night Goblins, Forest Goblins, and Trolls.  These were NEVER the best armies in the game.  They were a fan-favorite niche portion of the broader Orc & Goblin army and honestly they were generally best used as a supporting cast.  There were iterations where they were some of the better units, but those were generally a rare outlier.  Most of the time these forces were pretty bad on their own and bottom barrel.  They added unique things to a mixed Orc & Goblin list and if you so chose you could play a full army of them and effectively handicap yourself.

I played a full Night Goblin army (along with large Orc armies) from almost the start and I knew some games would be almost unwinnable and a large amount of them would be uphill struggles.  I did it anyways because I really like the army.

The fact that this became a full stand-alone army after all these years is a testament to fans enjoying something that is arguably terrible within the game itself.  I'm not saying that Gloomspite is bad by any means - but historically goblins, squigs, and trolls of all kinds have been fairly sub-par as a whole army.

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10 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

but historically goblins, squigs, and trolls of all kinds have been fairly sub-par as a whole army.

We also got a giant just to round things out. :)

I think at least Gloomspite has one of the bigger fun factor for an army, you definitely be the champion of the people if you can win a game with four gargants or four mangler squig or four dankholds troggoth

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21 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

As for the Boingrots cost - you may be right.  However, I find it unlikely that a single outlier would be the thing that is correct.  I don't think the Boingrots are too undercosted, but in the end I think they probably should go up a bit.  But that does not mean other stuff is not overcosted. 

I think squig herds at 70, boingrots at 100(110), stabbas at 130/360 and troggs at 160 are all fine.

Battleline

Squig hoppers could do with having a massive unit bonus of about 300, maybe a base points drip to 80, maybe.

Equally squig herds could do with a massive unit price of about 260. Not a ton, only 20 points, but an incentive to run them as what they are in the lore. A tidal wave of squigs being pushed forward by herders.

Shootas could do with dropping to 120/320, representing their decreased survivability/synergies compared to stabbas.

Rules erratas

One thing I think would be amazing for the faction is if the loonboss CA for mw on wound rolls of a 6 could also be used at the start of the shooting phase to apply the bonus for just that phase. Would make it usable on shootas, add another CP drain and more interesting list building/tactical choices.

Heroes

The Fungoid, Skragrott and basic loonboss fit well at their price point. Not sure about scarsnik as your paying 30 points for a ranged attack. That's hard to judge.

Madcap shaman could do with dropping to 70 points to really drive home the difference between it and the fungoid.

Loonboss ON giant cave squig could do with a points drop. 70-90 point range depending on how generous you're feeling.

Troggboss and Manglerboss could both do with about 60 points shaving off them putting then around 240. Makes them nice hero options outside of just theme lists.

Other Units

 Aleguzzler could do with being 100 points. It takes up a behemoth slot, so can't be spammed, has negative rule and is unreliable. At this points level it's competing with things like boingrots and fungoids rather than reliable heavy hitters like troggs. The question "fungoid or aleguzzler" illustrates why the aleguzzlers should be 100. 

Dankhold Troggoth should be 160 like the other troggs. This makes it an interesting support option for armies other than themed ones while also providing the interesting list building dilemma that all 3 trogg units are now exactly the same cost but serve slightly different purposes. Would you rather have 6 rockguts, 6 fellwaters or 2 dankholds. Tough choice.

I also think dankholds need a massive regiment bonus of about 360. Running them as a unit is a HUGE risk with a ton of negatives. Having the largest massive bonus in the game reflects this.

Mangler squig could do with being 180-200. Really your weighing it as a pure beatstick and accounting for it's variability this is the level I would put it at.

Honourable Mention

Skitterstrand Arachnarok needs a massive points drop. It's easily the worst of the arachnarok variants but costs a ton.

This would bring most of our units inline with both our own powerhouses and the powerhouses of the other new books.

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36 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

The fact that this became a full stand-alone army after all these years is a testament to fans enjoying something that is arguably terrible within the game itself.  I'm not saying that Gloomspite is bad by any means - but historically goblins, squigs, and trolls of all kinds have been fairly sub-par as a whole army.

Exactly. Yet we all stay in a destruction forum and I bet alot of us don't play armies outside of destruction. We destruction players are a special breed and GW knows that. We probably would buy the models no matter what the rules are. I'm happy with Gloomspite, they seem fun, they seem decent, I love the models etc etc.

And that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about optimization. Just means we should always acknowledge that what drew most of us to destruction probably wasn't the rules.

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3 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I think squig herds at 70, boingrots at 100(110), stabbas at 130/360 and troggs at 160 are all fine.

On the whole I agree.  I would say that boingrots are probably about 20 points undercosted currently by my random gut-feel math.  Squig Herds and Stabbas are just fine.  Troggs are fine, although I have a suspicion that Fellwater are probably just slightly undercosted (maybe 10 points). 

3 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Battleline

Squig hoppers could do with having a massive unit bonus of about 300, maybe a base points drip to 80, maybe.

Equally squig herds could do with a massive unit price of about 260. Not a ton, only 20 points, but an incentive to run them as what they are in the lore. A tidal wave of squigs being pushed forward by herders.

Shootas could do with dropping to 120/320, representing their decreased survivability/synergies compared to stabbas.

Rules erratas

One thing I think would be amazing for the faction is if the loonboss CA for mw on wound rolls of a 6 could also be used at the start of the shooting phase to apply the bonus for just that phase. Would make it usable on shootas, add another CP drain and more interesting list building/tactical choices.

I was thinking that Hoppers could probably use a horde discount as well.  A slight general points dip (maybe 10) could be good if Boingrots don't move much in cost.  These 2 units need to be separated a bit because the core stats (armor, rider attacks, bravery) swing so heavily to Boingrots.  The Hoppers have the advantage of being more mobile, which is a great bonus, but it does not outweigh all of the other things given how close in price these 2 units are.

I would not say no to a horde discount for Squig Herds, but I think it is too early to make that call.  I firmly believe they are one of the hidden gems in this book and I think that time will bear this out.  Maybe this is just personal projection since I own 60+ of the old metal ones and I plan to buy at least 60 more now that they are plastic (yeah - I have a squig problem...), but I don't think this is just my pro-squig bias talking.

Shootas need both a base cost reduction and a horde discount.

All those price changes are considering no rule alterations.  If they were to add abilities, change stats, or add more synergy to various units then all of these cost discussions change.  However, we know that historically they try to avoid making stat/rules changes outside of battletome rewrites if they can and instead use the GHB to tweak costs.

15 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Heroes

The Fungoid, Skragrott and basic loonboss fit well at their price point. Not sure about scarsnik as your paying 30 points for a ranged attack. That's hard to judge.

Madcap shaman could do with dropping to 70 points to really drive home the difference between it and the fungoid.

Loonboss ON giant cave squig could do with a points drop. 70-90 point range depending on how generous you're feeling.

Troggboss and Manglerboss could both do with about 60 points shaving off them putting then around 240. Makes them nice hero options outside of just theme lists.

Heroes are tough to gauge sometimes since they are generally the focal point for synergy and they can drastically change via the addition of relics, spells, and general traits.  I agree with your general assessments here, although not quite the point values.

One thing to consider for the Skarsnik Loonboss is that he has more than just a ranged attack.  He has an extra wound and all of the Giant Squig attacks.  He has an extra base attack as well - but he hits on 4s and the standard Loonboss hits on 3s so that is probably a wash.  I personally would like to see them distinguish these 2 choices by giving them different command abilities, but as it currently stands the Skarsnik version is better and hence merits an extra cost.  The solo Loonboss does have value as an economy choice to get access to Stab Em Good.

Agreed that the Madcap could use a slight decrease in cost.  Also the Fungoid should have access to relics & general traits - it is dumb that he does not.

I'm not sure about the Loonboss on Squig.  He is a bit overcosted as a combat hero I think, but his command ability is just so useful to squigs of any sort that I feel you can justify including multiples.  I think I would rather see him reworked a bit in regards to stats so that he has some compelling choices for relics.  Right now I have a hard time considering him for relics as opposed to other heroes and I think he should at least be in consideration.  Give him -1 rend on the cutta/stabba attacks and I would be very happy.

I agree that the Troggboss and Mangler Boss are probably on the high side, but currently I think they can live up to those costs with certain relics & general trait combos.  That said, I think they could use a drop but probably more in the realm of 20-40 (and not the same for each).

26 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Other Units

 Aleguzzler could do with being 100 points. It takes up a behemoth slot, so can't be spammed, has negative rule and is unreliable. At this points level it's competing with things like boingrots and fungoids rather than reliable heavy hitters like troggs. The question "fungoid or aleguzzler" illustrates why the aleguzzlers should be 100. 

Dankhold Troggoth should be 160 like the other troggs. This makes it an interesting support option for armies other than themed ones while also providing the interesting list building dilemma that all 3 trogg units are now exactly the same cost but serve slightly different purposes. Would you rather have 6 rockguts, 6 fellwaters or 2 dankholds. Tough choice.

I also think dankholds need a massive regiment bonus of about 360. Running them as a unit is a HUGE risk with a ton of negatives. Having the largest massive bonus in the game reflects this.

Mangler squig could do with being 180-200. Really your weighing it as a pure beatstick and accounting for it's variability this is the level I would put it at.

Honourable Mention

Skitterstrand Arachnarok needs a massive points drop. It's easily the worst of the arachnarok variants but costs a ton.

This would bring most of our units inline with both our own powerhouses and the powerhouses of the other new books.

I have said before that I think the Aleguzzler needs a warscroll rework.  If we just change points for him then you might be right about that cost.  But, that feels like a point value that we will never see in this game for a Behemoth (maybe I am wrong - and something that cheap might already exist!).  We could probably have a whole discussion topic about how to rework the Giant as I think there is a lot to explore with him that will make him both more fun and more effective.

Dankhold does need to come down.  160 feels a bit too cheap given all of the junk he does that is hard to easily assign cost to - but I would be willing to entertain that.  I would personally like to see him drop down to 200 in the next GHB and then we can feel out from there whether to go lower.   I feel that his warscroll is fine and his only issue is cost.  I fully agree about the horde discount if they are going to want people to field them in units.  Currently there is no reason to do so since we don't have any real targeted force-multiplier buffs and so no incentive to take them beyond singles.

I could see the Mangler at 220 or maybe 200 if we are really pushing it, but I think it is currently a better unit than you think.  He has some serious jank potential.

I think you are right about the Skitterstrand.  I like that we now have variation in the Arachnaroks, but I don't feel that they did enough in the way of rules variation to make that many warscrolls compelling.  I personally would prefer to see some stat & ability tweaks.  The shaman versions is fine as is.  The warparty version is described as being younger and ferocious.  I would like to see that version trade a wound or two for a boost in both movement and the attacks on the spider.  The charge reroll is neat, but I feel they could go farther with making it feel distinct.  The Flinger is described as being older and I would like to see it gain a point of armor - it would also be nice for the flinger attack to change to 5+ rather than 6+.  I'm not exactly sure about the Skitterstrand, but it supposedly comes from a weird pocket-realm from Shyish and is utterly horrifying so I feel like they should play more in that space than simply having ambush.  But again, if only points tweaks are on the table then I agree that it should get a big drop.

I have mentioned it before, but I also feel that GW played it a bit too safe with how niche they made most of the synergy abilities in this book.  I would like to see more of them opened up.  I think the Gobbapalooza, Snufflers, and Sporesplatta could stand to have their buffs effect a wider target.  I would like to see the Brewgit work on all heroes, but maybe not their mounts.  I see no reason to restrict the Spiker at all.  Scaremonger could work on all moonclan at least.  I don't see why Snufflers can't effect Spiderfang.  And with Spore Splattas there are enough restrictions, costs, and fragility to the unit that I think they could broaden them to all Gloomspite.  That change would have some really interesting impact, but the unit has to be close enough to the target that they are tough to use.  It is also fragile enough that most enemies would have the ability to peel out at least one unit before melee if they chose to prioritize it.  But, we are unlikely to see anything like this until a book rewrite in a couple years most likely.

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@Skabnoze I really doubt we will get warscroll changes. It's why the only one I suggested as an errata was the CA being usable on shootas, they need that synergy.

For the rest I think you are being overly conservative. Talking to people at tournaments and just generally comparing around myself I realised that destruction players as a whole have this sort of whipped dog attitude. If we ask for to much rather than just scraps then they will just increase the points to punish us.

Then you have the other allegiances getting things we refuse to dream of.

The best example of this is the "how many points should a Mawkrusha be?" On the destruction forum and from other ironjawz players I get people saying "I'd be ecstatic at 400 points." When I speak to order/chaos/death players they give me a casual "yeah it should be 320 or 340 points".

So yeah. When you say "squigs shouldn't have a horde bonus" just think, 40 skeletons are 280 points and have way better faction support than squigs.

Squig hoppers are 90 points or 360 for 20. Dire wolves are 60 points and 320 for 30...

In light of that is asking for squig hoppers to be 300 for 20 really that obscene? Sure they have better damage, they also have a worse save and bravery 4 instead of 10!

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Maybe you are right, but I personally would prefer to have something that is relatively decent long-term rather than flare super bright only to be crushed by the nerf bat for a decade or more.  Us Grots spent enough time at the absolute bottom of the pack.

That all said, I am always wary of cross-book comparisons.  It is a useful tool up to a point, but the comparisons fall apart rapidly.  I also believe that a lot of what is used as measuring sticks in the very competitive realms is often the stuff that itself is out of whack and prone for adjustment.  Skeletons and Legions of Nagash as a whole I think falls into that category.  I don't buy for a second that the LoN book was balanced for the current edition when it was written.  I think they had an idea about some of the things they would do in 8th and that they used that book as a test-bed for how to recombine allegiances.  In that regard it was a success.  However, I think that book will see some large shake-ups whenever they decide to rewrite it.

I have a feeling that we will see things like possibly Dire Wolves and Bats removed entirely.  Skeletons will obviously remain and I suspect they may expand DeathRattle more - but I think that Skeletons will either go up in cost or they will tweak how the buffs stack on them.  I could be wrong, but that is the impression I get from watching how they have developed books.

As for Squig Herds horde discount - I did not say they should not have them.  I said I think it is too early to make the call on that.  I don't think we have explored that unit enough as a community to say that they need a cost reduction.  I could be wrong, but the recent trend to people taking a second look at fielding big units of them says to me that my suspicion that they were better than people gave them credit for was correct.  I won't argue against a horde discount.  Anything that lets me put more squigs on the table is a great thing in my opinion.  But I am simply not sure that they need it.

 

Edited by Skabnoze
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9 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I really doubt we will get warscroll changes. It's why the only one I suggested as an errata was the CA being usable on shootas, they need that synergy.

I feel that if changes didn't occur in the 2 week FAQ they will not come at all unless its a blatant error or a simple change like modifying a keyword or replacing things like "melee attacks" with "attacks".  So when I speak I generally try not to talk about warscroll changes since I believe that to be a unrealistic expectation.

Points on the other hand can be changed with each GH and we should not take a whipped dog mentality when we lobby for our faction on social media, at a local gw store, etc etc. imo a MK at the max should be 400. At the MAX. Either lower him or raise other comparable monsters.

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9 minutes ago, Malakree said:

@Skabnoze I really doubt we will get warscroll changes. It's why the only one I suggested as an errata was the CA being usable on shootas, they need that synergy.

For the rest I think you are being overly conservative. Talking to people at tournaments and just generally comparing around myself I realised that destruction players as a whole have this sort of whipped dog attitude. If we ask for to much rather than just scraps then they will just increase the points to punish us.

Then you have the other allegiances getting things we refuse to dream of.

The best example of this is the "how many points should a Mawkrusha be?" On the destruction forum and from other ironjawz players I get people saying "I'd be ecstatic at 400 points." When I speak to order/chaos/death players they give me a casual "yeah it should be 320 or 340 points".

So yeah. When you say "squigs shouldn't have a horde bonus" just think, 40 skeletons are 280 points and have way better faction support than squigs.

Squig hoppers are 90 points or 360 for 20. Dire wolves are 60 points and 320 for 30...

In light of that is asking for squig hoppers to be 300 for 20 really that obscene? Sure they have better damage, they also have a worse save and bravery 4 instead of 10!

I don’t know if y’all are death players but did you know many forums were COMPLAINING on the legion of nagash battletome? They believed their infantry SUCKED and were only on par with other armies when buffed, but their buff characters were too easy to kill boo hoo. Yet legions is what top 3 competitively speaking? (I assume daughters is fairly high as well, and I hear stormcast do well) destruction players have always been underdogs and have taken that mentality with them. People tend to love playing vs ork players 40k and fantasy wise. And in 8th I believe they had around a 50 percent win rate making them pretty fair to fight. 

Destruction players are top tiers when it comes to temperament and how they handle unit changes honestly

also idk if y’all know this but 90 percent of the fun forgeworld monsters are destruction, you should try one or two lol they are super fun!

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6 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Maybe you are right, but I personally would prefer to have something that is relatively decent long-term rather than flare super bright only to be crushed by the nerf bat for a decade or more.  Us Grots spent enough time at the absolute bottom of the pack.

That all said, I am always wary of cross-book comparisons.  It is a useful tool up to a point, but the comparisons fall apart rapidly.  I also believe that a lot of what is used as measuring sticks in the very competitive realms is often the stuff that itself is out of whack and prone for adjustment.  Skeletons and Legions of Nagash as a whole I think falls into that category.  I don't buy for a second that the LoN book was balanced for the current edition when it was written.  I think they had an idea about some of the things they would do in 8th and that they used that book as a test-bed for how to recombine allegiances.  In that regard it was a success.  However, I think that book will see some large shake-ups whenever they decide to rewrite it.

 I have a feeling that we will see things like possibly Dire Wolves and Bats removed entirely.  Skeletons will obviously remain and I suspect they may expand DeathRattle more - but I think that Skeletons will either go up in cost or they will tweak how the buffs stack on them.  I could be wrong, but that is the impression I get from watching how they have developed books.

Not to be an echo chamber but I agree. I have played GW games for 15 years and I think this is a fair assessment.

Edited by svnvaldez
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