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AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion


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I'm looking to build my army a little at a time, so some of my choices might seem suboptimal.

How does the following stike people to get going though?

 

Loonboss with Giant Cave Squig

Mollog

Zarbag

Fungoid Shaman

40 x  Stabbas with spears

12 x Squig Herd

5 x Sneaky Snufflers

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Lucio said:

I'm looking to build my army a little at a time, so some of my choices might seem suboptimal.

How does the following stike people to get going though?

 

Loonboss with Giant Cave Squig

Mollog

Zarbag

Fungoid Shaman

40 x  Stabbas with spears

12 x Squig Herd

5 x Sneaky Snufflers

 

 

 

Yes another Mollog fan.

I was doing some dice rolls and the dmg is decent.

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10 hours ago, Malakithe said:

You prefer one max uni of 15 over more then one smaller unit of Bounderz?

Yeah i do, ive tried them in MSU of 5s and they just dont take much effort to remove them from the board. Furthermore they are fairly slow compared to the Hoppers and Manglers so if you are using Squig Lure you are guaranteed to get a larger amount of Bounders up the field than smaller units. You are delivering those 15 chances of MWs all together even if there is a risk of them getting debuffed by enemy spells of other abilities. But the same goes for our abilities, you only have to reroll there charge roll once, you only have to give one unit a auto 6" run. I would personally go Hoppers as smaller units as they arent as crucial to the frontline like the Bounders.

 

8 hours ago, Mayple said:

Sure, but irrelevant. I was arguing that he is the tankiest of the three. Which he is. Anything beyond that is debating usefullness, which I have no intention of getting into.

I agree with this, and I'm not a mathhammer person myself (you haven't seen me throw up a graph yet, and probably never will ;)

But facts are facts, and sometimes statistics show a truth you can't argue with using ingame experience; Troggboss is tankier (superior defensively, not equal) than Mangler Squig and Webspinner Arachnarock. The Troggboss has access to defensive stats that the other two can never achieve on account of being monsters, or not having access to the same traits, while also having a notably smaller footprint, making it easier to screen.

This is the argument. Talking about anything else, i.e usefulness, or best choice, is not relevant, because I'm not making any claims about those. My views are not represented, because this is an objective truth: Troggboss is the tankiest of the three. 

Also, your playgroup could be the top 10 players in the world, and I'd still have to tell you that their positioning is off if they get their Troggboss murdered in scenarios that you first described (with the squigs) - Status or number of people does not equal a better argument. The argument itself is the only factor. 

Or we could start throwing our accomplishments around, if that's how you want to back up statements. Not my cup of tea; I've never lost a tournament. My friends are highly competitive - Which is irrelevant to the argument, so you should disregard it, as will I yours.

So if we're going to debate more, please keep it strictly to the actual statement ;)

I am keeping it strictly to the statement, I am providing evidence of the times i have witnessed him not being the tankiest. It all comes down to what your opponent brings, not being a monster is cool and all but not all armies have shooting so LoS maybe wont come into affect, not all armies have powers, artefacts and spells that affect monsters, not all boards have ample/suitable terrain he can tip toe around, some armies have ways to negate cover save bonuses. Its all apple of oranges, where your view sees him as the most durable i still seeing him dying to 30 witches, 30 Bestigors, 40 Skellies, 30 Grimghast Reapers, Morrsarr Guard. Do these units care if you are a monster or not? No. 

The big schkint of the Troggboss is IF he survives. All those units above can and will kill him in a single combat phase. The Mangler Boss gets around this with mobility and the benefit of moving away after he strikes. This is MASSIVE. In your turn he will not be getting hit when he charges, he will only get hit in the enemies turn when they charge him. This has nothing to do with statistics, he is simply not there to be fought. The Troggboss does not have this luxury as your general. If he doesnt kill what he charges he is taking return fire end of. 

Against the guy with the full Troggoth army we were playing Shifting Objectives, would you want him to form a defensive circle around his Boss the whole game and concede points to his opponent? It was turn 2, my army is more mobile, my army deals MWs way more effectively than his. Unless you have your Boss in the corner of the Board he will always be at risk of getting attacked. If you could draw me a pretty diagram of how 12 Trolls can properly defend a Troggboss from 43 models that are faster whilst also playing to the objective of the game that would be really helpful.

In regards to screening, what ive been doing is forming a wrap of Squig Herd around my MB turn 1, due to Fly he can pass over these models, and factoring in his range 2" attacks he can still attacks and then FaD away. But thats if he gets charged turn 1. LoS may be big in your area but i dont see it much around here. How many big shooting armies are left in the competitive scene nowadays? Death of all kinds use screams and Bravery attacks (The MB has Bravery 10 to the 8 of the TB), KO is pretty much dead nowadays (sad times), DoK will use Heartrenders to go after weaker support heroes, IDK have small arms fire mainly that dont add up to a lot, Maggotkin has 0 unless you want Marauder Horsemen, BoC have the Cygor (no one uses it) and Ungor Raiders (they will be going after backline units or weaker chaff), DoT has had a somewhat of a nerf with Skyfires, BCR raiders just have to roll a 2+ to smack 6 wounds on your Boss, FS have throwing axes and the bad Magmadroth..... Sylvaneth have Kurnoth Hunters with bows and various Treelord variants shooting attacks, so that leaves us with SCE and pretty much Ironweld/Freeguild armies that try to go towards some type of shooting oh and Chaos Dwarves if they are around which is unlikely.

Now back to " The Troggboss has access to defensive stats that the other two can never achieve" part, those other 2 heroes have defensive stats that the Troggboss also doesnt have, The Webspinner for one is a Wizard with a +1 to unbind, he can also cast mystic shield on himself with a +1 as well, he also has 2 more wounds and movement. This is talking about utility, he can unbind a spell vs himself, can give himself reroll 1s to save, can take 2 more punches, can move 2" further to avoid a dicey threat. He is -1 to hit standard with the artefact. The Mangler Boss has a vastly greater movement capability and can Fly. This is another defensive trait that he has over the TB. Movement is key to the game, it affects all other phases of the game. Your next Hero phase, your enemies. Your Combat phase and your enemies, the Shooting phase and your enemies.

From a strictly warscroll perspective i will agree with you that the Dankhold (both types) are tougher than any type of Mangler and Arok. But when you start adding in things that arent in a vacuum that durability vanishes. You can easily negate 2 of his warscroll abilities: 1.) Dont target him with magic (of which you dont really need to do anyway). 2.) Kill him straight off in a single round (not hard). There are really only a few units in the game that can survive those deathstar units mentioned above, and Gloomspite Gits dont have any of those units, we are Goblins through and through, we use trickery, manipulation and changing the odds to see the day through. If a Mawcrusha charges any of the 3 heroes we are debating they are most likely dead, with both the MB and TB having the highest odds of dying outright.

Just because the other two are monsters it doesnt mean they are natively weaker. Just be savvy with how you play. Think outside the box. Try combos people wouldnt dream off. It seems like im the only one using Thermalrider on my Mangler Boss where as everyone else goes for a -1 to hit. But so far i havent had a scenario where a -1 would of come into affect due to smart placement and picking and choosing my fights.

If we use 40k as an example some may say a Leman Russ is tougher than a Raider from purely statline perspective and they would be right, but add in traits, stratagems, tactics and suddenly that Raider becomes harder to remove than that Leman Russ that lumbers forward. It may be a different game but the general theme is the same. Speed is one form of defence, using the winds of magic is another form of it entirely. Each one has its own way of being tanky, smacking a label on the TB as being the tankiest is quite a narrow view of looking at the other options we have. Each one shines in a different aspect, some shine better with synergy available, others just shine bright with no outside influence.

Once people start using there Troggboss and porting there experiences and Feedback about his effectiveness we can then start discussing this properly, because right now we are in a paradox. Using past games as evidence is never irrelevant to an argument, if you never test anything how will you know how it performs in the field? It might not be your cup of tea, but it helps people decide on what to use, like with me discussing with the other chap if hes had success with Gobbas. Im using his past uses to build a better picture of the uses and capabilities of the Gobba. You can then use these accounts as outliers and even form a average. You see it all the time when people discuss which army is the best in the meta, they look at data of the matches, number of victories, victory points secured. This can be skewed depending on which top tournament players play which army each event.

We can carry this on in PM but thats me done on this topic. Until someone provides some more feedback on there TB in action, i wont be accepting him as the default tankiest, i never view a model based on his vacuum, i have always rated models on what they have done. Overall its been a good discussion Mayple, it allows others to see both sides of the fence! People may agree with you, people may agree with me, people may think we are both talking poop and throw in a different argument saying the Loonboss on Foot is the tankiest ahahaha!! 🤣 So we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Finally played a game with Gloomspite. My moon never moved! 🙁

However, it was a great, fun, and close game.  Narrow loss to Nighthaunt.

Colossal squig was a beast, Bounders were a tiny bit underwhelming with no support (but still did ok and were fun). 

I think from a battleline perspective I prefer Stabbas with Stabbas.  Since all of our Grot buffs are for wound rolls, you really need to get a lot of hits.  Pokin’ Spears just don’t get enough, even with extra reach. If they somehow end up with a -1 they’re in big trouble. But, I like them better aesthetically so I might continue to run them 🤷‍♂️

Webspinner with Sneaky Distraction was great too. With netters in the front ranks and shamen behind my grots were usually -2 to hit. 

Fungoid shaman was good too...but mainly bc I was lucky with his 4+ FnP and rolled enough for the extra cp each turn.

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17 hours ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

We could debate this all night and i fully respect your views on the Dankhold Troggboss, but me and many others in my gaming group see him as a weaker hero as a whole when viewing our options in context. He simply doesnt affect the battlefield in ways that the others do, he isnt much of a force multiplier, he isnt the most punchy of heroes. 

I don't agree that he doesn't affect the battlefield personally, my experiences of the big boss have all been positive so far, my list basically consists of him as a general so my 2 units of 3 rockguts become battleline, they all chill in a group with a big 60 unit of stabbas for protection, while they make their way up the board, the 3 units of 10 boingrots in the battalion are doing work disrupting the enemy lines (Taking out small annoying units and sniping heroes where possible) while this is happening the anvil of the list makes its way up the board usually pretty untouched as the distraction of the dangerous boingrots need to be dealt with. Once they arrive your enemy is weakened and you boss and rockguts can go to town.

 

I think the Troggboss is far from useless when you build a list to accommodate his strengths and weaknesses, he may not be as damaging as others such as the loon boss on Mangler but he sure is more durable, especially in a heavy magic meta with Death dominating, he offers a slight defensive edge while also offering a threat for the opponent. I also get to make my troggoths battline meaning I don't have to waste points on filler batteline units

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9 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Im trying to dial this in but after rereading a lot of pages i think im getting closer. Im liking the idea of going magic heavy for a bit more tactical flexibility. I like the idea of Hoppers softening up a good target for the Bounderz to smash into. Lots of magic support here. I was considering dropping the Mangler and picking up the Balewind for the Webspinner to use and maybe either the DoomShroom or SpiderTide as well. Both of them are amazing for MW output and huge area denial allowing you to manipulate the battlefield. The Webspinner on a Balewind could really hamstring enemy units from afar which would extent the lifespan of my guys while SpiderSham + WalkingBowl could cast Itchy Nuisance. Buuuut on the other hand keeping this list will have real threat and stopping power without really needing all the fancy magics

Also to consider maybe dropping a unit of Bounderz and upping the other one to 15.

Leaders
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- General
- Trait: Dead Shouty 
- Artefact: The Clammy cowl 
Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (300)
- Artefact: Headdress of Many Eyes 
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Gift of da Spider God
Madcap Shaman (80)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork
Webspinner Shaman (80)
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Sneaky Distraction
10 x Squig Hoppers (180)
18 x Squig Herd (210)
18 x Squig Herd (210)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
Mangler Squigs (240)
Squig Rider Stampede (140)
Scrapskuttle's Arachnacauldron (50)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 172

You realise stampede can't take 4 units right?

 

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Just now, Malakithe said:

Yeah ive since changed it up a bit

Cool😀

9 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Im trying to dial this in but after rereading a lot of pages i think im getting closer. Im liking the idea of going magic heavy for a bit more tactical flexibility. I like the idea of Hoppers softening up a good target for the Bounderz to smash into. Lots of magic support here. I was considering dropping the Mangler and picking up the Balewind for the Webspinner to use and maybe either the DoomShroom or SpiderTide as well. Both of them are amazing for MW output and huge area denial allowing you to manipulate the battlefield. The Webspinner on a Balewind could really hamstring enemy units from afar which would extent the lifespan of my guys while SpiderSham + WalkingBowl could cast Itchy Nuisance. Buuuut on the other hand keeping this list will have real threat and stopping power without really needing all the fancy magics

Also to consider maybe dropping a unit of Bounderz and upping the other one to 15.

Leaders
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- General
- Trait: Dead Shouty 
- Artefact: The Clammy cowl 
Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (300)
- Artefact: Headdress of Many Eyes 
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Gift of da Spider God
Madcap Shaman (80)
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Hand of Gork
Webspinner Shaman (80)
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Sneaky Distraction
10 x Squig Hoppers (180)
18 x Squig Herd (210)
18 x Squig Herd (210)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
Mangler Squigs (240)
Squig Rider Stampede (140)
Scrapskuttle's Arachnacauldron (50)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 172

You realise stampede can't take 4 units right?

 

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26 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

I don't agree that he doesn't affect the battlefield personally, my experiences of the big boss have all been positive so far, my list basically consists of him as a general so my 2 units of 3 rockguts become battleline, they all chill in a group with a big 60 unit of stabbas for protection, while they make their way up the board, the 3 units of 10 boingrots in the battalion are doing work disrupting the enemy lines (Taking out small annoying units and sniping heroes where possible) while this is happening the anvil of the list makes its way up the board usually pretty untouched as the distraction of the dangerous boingrots need to be dealt with. Once they arrive your enemy is weakened and you boss and rockguts can go to town.

 

I think the Troggboss is far from useless when you build a list to accommodate his strengths and weaknesses, he may not be as damaging as others such as the loon boss on Mangler but he sure is more durable, especially in a heavy magic meta with Death dominating, he offers a slight defensive edge while also offering a threat for the opponent. I also get to make my troggoths battline meaning I don't have to waste points on filler batteline units

Now I didnt say he was useless 😂😉 and i agree that he has strengths and weaknesses that suit his class type. I just disagree that he has the defacto label of being the most durable which is a contextual subject. I view them all as durable but each one does it in there own way. Do you want a slow waddling brute with his all his mates having the times of there lives, do you want a speedy cannonball with his buddies bouncing up the field, etc. It all depends on what you list aims to do.

What was your list? Would be interesting to see it.

Edited by Ekrund Oath Splitters
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Anyone else feel that all the battalions are overcosted & don't really give much or any bang for their buck, whilst also forcing you to shoehorn into a specific build? Squiggle stampede hamstrings you by not allowing loonboss and limiting to 3 units, skullmob thing forces you to take 3 units of fanatics which are expensive in points and just plain better in 1 single unit of 15.... I don't see any reason to take any of them tbh.... Thoughts?

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3 minutes ago, CarkFish said:

Anyone else feel that all the battalions are overcosted & don't really give much or any bang for their buck, whilst also forcing you to shoehorn into a specific build? Squiggle stampede hamstrings you by not allowing loonboss and limiting to 3 units, skullmob thing forces you to take 3 units of fanatics which are expensive in points and just plain better in 1 single unit of 15.... I don't see any reason to take any of them tbh.... Thoughts?

If you subtract 50pts from each battalion for the extra CP then i think some are worth it. You get to drop all those units at once, get an extra artefact and then get a benefit. They are restricting but thats to stop them being auto takes. If you factor in what other benefits they provide the stampede is probably like 70pts due to the extra CP and artefact.

The spiderfang battalions and the squig stampede are the better ones in the book i think.

Edited by Ekrund Oath Splitters
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6 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Now I didnt say he was useless 😂😉 and i agree that he has strengths and weaknesses that suit his class type. I just disagree that he has the defacto label of being the most durable which is a contextual subject. I view them all as durable but each one does it in there own way. Do you want a slow waddling brute with his all his mates having the times of there lives, do you want a speedy cannonball with his buddies bouncing up the field, etc. It all depends on what you list aims to do.

What was your list? Would be interesting to see it.

Yeah maybe put words in your mouth with useless there haha! I just think that extra magic defence is just too nice really, but I definitely see manglers being very good too, yet to use one mind.

 

Sure this is the list:

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Trait: Tough as Rocks  
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- Moon-cutta
- Artefact: Spiteful Prodder  
Madcap Shaman (80)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
60 x Stabbas (360)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
- 9x Barbed Nets
- 1x Moonclan Flag Bearers
- 2x Badmoon Icon Bearers
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
Squig Rider Stampede (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 170

 

Edit: Forgot spells - Itch on madcap and Squig lure on Fungoid
 

Edited by JonnyTheKing
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18 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

Yeah maybe put words in your mouth with useless there haha! I just think that extra magic defence is just too nice really, but I definitely see manglers being very good too, yet to use one mind.

 

Sure this is the list:

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Dankhold Troggboss (300)
- General
- Trait: Tough as Rocks  
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- Moon-cutta
- Artefact: Spiteful Prodder  
Madcap Shaman (80)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (160)
60 x Stabbas (360)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
- 9x Barbed Nets
- 1x Moonclan Flag Bearers
- 2x Badmoon Icon Bearers
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)
Squig Rider Stampede (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 170

 

Edit: Forgot spells - Itch on madcap and Squig lure on Fungoid
 

That looks quite scary haha! I think thats the way to go with mixed Gloomspite builds. 30 Boingrots will mess people up! And that brick of 60 gobbos will be hard to chew through. What has the Troggboss fought so far?

Do you find the spears more worth will than the stabbas? I can never seem to roll 5s to save my life! 3s and 4s im good with 🤣

Edited by Ekrund Oath Splitters
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On 1/15/2019 at 12:59 PM, Skabnoze said:

Since I have some 20-30 different Night Goblin hero models from over the years that I really like I am trying to figure out how to use as many of them as possible but still use the new stuff.  I think I am going to be doing more stuff like putting them on many of the big monster/creature models.  For example, adding them onto the bases of some of the models as more of scenic details, standing on the shoulders of Giants or big Trolls to help lead them, or build a howdah onto my colossal squig and put a few of them there - etc.  Some of them also work exceptionally well as unit leaders for the grot units.

Base them like the Scuttletide spell and use them in its place....? Very thematic for a Grot army.

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1 hour ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

That looks quite scary haha! I think thats the way to go with mixed Gloomspite builds. 30 Boingrots will mess people up! And that brick of 60 gobbos will be hard to chew through. What has the Troggboss fought so far?

Do you find the spears more worth will than the stabbas? I can never seem to roll 5s to save my life! 3s and 4s im good with 🤣

Troggboss so far has killed a Great unclean one with support from unit of boingrots, he killed 2 Bloodthirsters one game with help from a unit of rockguts, he's severely crippled multiple stormcast units, I've still yet to see what he can do against beasts like Nagash or Archaon but if he can get to them in good condition I think he could lay the hurt! 

 

I find spears better in 60s, 40s I debate between stabbas and spears and 20 definitely stabbas, they honestly exist as a resilient tarpit and bodies for objectives really but they do manage to chip some wounds off stuff which is all they're really for

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1 hour ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

If you subtract 50pts from each battalion for the extra CP then i think some are worth it. You get to drop all those units at once, get an extra artefact and then get a benefit. They are restricting but thats to stop them being auto takes. If you factor in what other benefits they provide the stampede is probably like 70pts due to the extra CP and artefact.

The spiderfang battalions and the squig stampede are the better ones in the book i think.

Yea I think thats the debate on Battalions. If they're too cheap or too good, they become auto takes (like the Everchosen battalions pre 2.0 nerf). If they're too overcosted or with marginal benefits, then they're just sitting there locking out additional artifacts (SCE struggle a lot with this, outside of like the cleansing phalanx)

Another thing to keep in mind is the shift of 1.0 battalions to 2.0. Modern battalions usually only give 1 benefit, vs the 2-3 benefits of older ones. So you do have to sit and think about gaining the one drop, artifact, cp, and one benefit vs the cost and composition of the battalion. And it does still appear to be a learning process on GWs part. BoC as another example being the next newest book has some very....odd battalion choices, from almost auto include to "why do I need to take 3 gors".

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