AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

[C0deb1ue]

I’m not sure anyone expects a new book each year as that isn’t something that happens. 
 

But it would be easier if they could errata/faq properly without only being able to release further £25 books (at a glacial pace) to fix their less well written battletomes. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by C0deb1ue

[Skumbaagh]

On 10/12/2020 at 3:59 PM, Dankboss said:

Jaws literally went and won a tournament after they were released XD

I tried to find the list that won in the IJ subforum, Do you happen to know what the list was? I acctually got a tournament this weekend!

[Dankboss]

52 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

I tried to find the list that won in the IJ subforum, Do you happen to know what the list was? I acctually got a tournament this weekend!

It was discussed on Facebook and iirc it was in Poland, if I come across it I'll let you know.

[Oreaper84]

Ran Jaws list against Preatorian Bonereapers last night. Actually really swingy game that game down to the last turns of the game. Suuuuuuper fun.

My List:

Mangler boss / Clammy Cowl / envoy of the Overbounder

LB on GCS - Loonstone Tali

Fungoind  /Screamer squig

Moonjumper / 2x10 bounders/ 5 hoppers / mangler

MB Squigalanch / 2x12 squig herd / mangler

Malevolant moon endless spell

His list ;

Katakros / soul mason/2x20 mortek / 5 death riders/ harvester /crawler/ 3 stalkers

 

I knew i was up against it with this tanky list. Scerio was shifting objectives in Gyrhan.

Highlights, turn 1 charge with vanilla battalion mangler to explode the 3 stalker. Scored a bunch of points early, but the mortek pushed on one flank and mid. Double bointgrot charge deleted the non harvester mortek. Used mobility and grot shenanigans to stay in the game after the loonboss get merc'd by Katakros himself. score ended 26/23 to the Bonereapers

Takeaways

Manglers of all variety can smash face with proper support, and turn 1 charges are 100% a thing with this army (6" pregame move, +3" CA, squig lure). Manglers can also suicide missile in to kill. A couple times multiple charges allowed him to mince one of my glass cannon units, so going forward i'll either fit a 2nd shaman (cant give up squig lure) for itchy nuisance, or be much more selective in what charges when. If you dictate who gets the charges and when, this can be a very strong army...but command points are needed to keep the engine moving (eff you Katakros stealing my command points!!!)  

Edited October 15, 2020 by Oreaper84

[Pitloze]

It seems the Bonegrinder went and gone changed factions... Boo this man!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/qoNOUvdzwe7R46S3.pdf

Edit: Legit kinda sad about this. Would have been so awesome if he kept Gitz keyword.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Pitloze

[Malakithe]

16 hours ago, Pitloze said:

It seems the Bonegrinder went and gone changed factions... Boo this man!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/qoNOUvdzwe7R46S3.pdf

Edit: Legit kinda sad about this. Would have been so awesome if he kept Gitz keyword.

Eh not like anyone every used gargants of any kind with Gitz. Some here and there but overall not very impactful 

[C0deb1ue]

 

Nothing we didn't already know and its been like this for much longer than GHB 2020.  Is that win the jaws of mork one? does anyone know...? 

Edit: just thought that the jaws of mork list would show up as first place so it must be something else.

Edited October 22, 2020 by C0deb1ue
update

[Newtype_Zero]

1 hour ago, C0deb1ue said:

 

Nothing we didn't already know and its been like this for much longer than GHB 2020.  Is that win the jaws of mork one? does anyone know...? 

Edit: just thought that the jaws of mork list would show up as first place so it must be something else.

Keep in mind that this list is only comprised from tournaments which were 2-day, 5 games and 2,000 points. Not sure if that JoM list was in a tournament that met those qualifications. The other thing it doesn't factor in is how played those armies are. If Gloomspite Gitz only had 1 total entry that met this list's qualifications, their showing isn't quite as bad as it looks here. While if KO had 36 entries that qualified, their showing isn't as good as it appears here. I think knowing the full numbers that went into this graphic would be helpful to get a better feel for the meta and what these standings actually represent.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Newtype_Zero
Clarification

[swarmofseals]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:42 AM, Newtype_Zero said:

Keep in mind that this list is only comprised from tournaments which were 2-day, 5 games and 2,000 points. Not sure if that JoM list was in a tournament that met those qualifications. The other thing it doesn't factor in is how played those armies are. If Gloomspite Gitz only had 1 total entry that met this list's qualifications, their showing isn't quite as bad as it looks here. While if KO had 36 entries that qualified, their showing isn't as good as it appears here. I think knowing the full numbers that went into this graphic would be helpful to get a better feel for the meta and what these standings actually represent.

I'll also note that top 5 is a super arbitrary cutoff for a 5 round event. At 32 players top 5 includes 4 4-1s and leaves 1 4-1 out. At 64 players it leaves out 7 4-1s while including 3. It's just not a sensible metric to make any kind of real judgment about success.

[Newtype_Zero]

1 minute ago, swarmofseals said:

I'll also note that top 5 is a super arbitrary cutoff for a 5 round event. At 32 players top 5 includes 4 4-1s and leaves 1 4-1 out. At 64 players it leaves out 7 4-1s while including 3. It's just not a sensible metric to make any kind of real judgment about success.

Exactly! Basically, without the data behind this graphic, it's essentially worthless and just made to show meaningless and potentially misleading data that will cause people who only care about winning to flock to the top three armies in it and the people that play the armies that don't even appear on this list to freak out. I've already seen one friend who plays Sylvanith freaking out about them not appearing in the graphic.

[swarmofseals]

6 minutes ago, Newtype_Zero said:

Exactly! Basically, without the data behind this graphic, it's essentially worthless and just made to show meaningless and potentially misleading data that will cause people who only care about winning to flock to the top three armies in it and the people that play the armies that don't even appear on this list to freak out. I've already seen one friend who plays Sylvanith freaking out about them not appearing in the graphic.

I wouldn't really ascribe motivation to the way the data is presented. It's MUCH more likely that whomever wrote the article just made an arbitrary cutoff and ran with it.

While I generally like articles like this (and am hopeful that their quality will improve over time), I think your friend's reaction does highlight the downside. I think a lot of gamers aren't really honest with themselves about their motivations. There are loads of casual or semi-competitive players who will convince themselves that they should care about the high level competitive metagame when they'd be much happier if they didn't stress about it.

If your friend is playing Sylvaneth and had some notion that they might be anything other than low tier at the moment then I have a hard time imagining that he's really a serious competitive player. If he were playing competitively he would already know that Sylvaneth aren't in a great place right now. If he's not playing competitively, then why is he worried about 5 round tournament results? If he does well enough with Sylv for this article to upend his personal impressions, then what is there to worry about? Clearly Sylvaneth is fine in the context of the games he actually plays.

[Ganigumo]

Top 5 is usually the metric I see around the community. I'm actually a bit surprised by just how much "controversy" that article has created. These results aren't really surprising to anyone who was paying attention, and are completely different to what it would have looked like 6 months ago, and that was very different to what it looks like 6 months before that. The meta is shifting over time, and that's a good thing.

Everyone knows Seraphon is bent,  and shooting is strong, but as people get new options and start building to protect from shooting the meta will change again. Some armies definitely need some help (like gitz, but we have been getting these white dwarfs which are pretty helpful).

On topic for Gitz now, the takeaway is that we are going to have a very hard time competing in the current meta if we make it to the top tables. Grot lists will find their heroes disappearing very quickly, and it will be tough to get our magic off against Tzeentch and seraphon. Grot lists backed by Troggbosses might work to an extent, since the troggboss can be tough to take down, and squig lists can move fast enough to close the gaps very quickly, which can mitigate losses to shooting.  I'm a bit curious as to how MSU grots would fare against some of them though.

[C0deb1ue]

The article above is not showing anything new if you have been following the meta. Gloomspite have struggled for ages with a silly amount of keywords and very narrow choices if you want any sort of synergy. As above our heroes get picked off incredibly easily, our endless spells are now very much on the weaker side of things, the bad moon is awful.

I really hope they have better in store than those white dwarf articles as they played incredibly safe with those even though gloomspite has been at the bottom for over a year. Dont really want a few low effort tome celestials rather than an actually well written battletome.

Plus it’s just another £10 for more weak rules/fixes that should have been there from the start.

[novakai]

i wouldn't really care about the competitive scene at the moment given the world state right now and the fact that only small tournaments are being held right now.  barely any worthwhile tournaments are happening in the US and i don't expect much with COVID is just coming back. yes Gloomspite is not a strong army but complain about it constantly damper your enjoyment of playing games. just enjoy what you got and not care about what others have.

often times the strongest army are often times GW forgeting how to balancing stuff and not really metric of player skill or anything one can do without bent out rules.

[Pitloze]

I haven't gotten my Gloomspite on the table yet. But is a massive low drop (with battalions) grot spam not even viable? Multiple ways to block LoS against shooting (sporefanatics, endless spells). -1 to shooting spell. Teleports to get your grots on objectives.

On paper it looks like an army that should be able to compete.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Pitloze

[Ganigumo]

8 hours ago, Pitloze said:

I haven't gotten my Gloomspite on the table yet. But is a massive low drop (with battalions) grot spam not even viable? Multiple ways to block LoS against shooting (sporefanatics, endless spells). -1 to shooting spell. Teleports to get your grots on objectives.

On paper it looks like an army that should be able to compete.

AFAIK most lists shy away from low drop since its way too tough to fit what you need in. Skulkmob is expensive (910 at the minimum) and doesn't really include any of the support you need. Moonclan skrap comes in at a minimum of like 1390 points. The big moonclan battalions just tend to eat up points way too quickly. It would be a completely different story if fanatics were cheaper or skulkmob was 1-3 fanatics.

 

 

[novakai]

Hot take: Broken realm is going to rewrite the Gobblapalooza Warscroll and Battallion, making  them able to be taken separately by themselves and changing their buffs to be stronger and less restrictive

[C0deb1ue]

11 hours ago, novakai said:

Hot take: Broken realm is going to rewrite the Gobblapalooza Warscroll and Battallion, making  them able to be taken separately by themselves and changing their buffs to be stronger and less restrictive

You will be lucky if it’s anything more than a reprint of those weak white dwarf rules.

[novakai]

6 hours ago, C0deb1ue said:

You will be lucky if it’s anything more than a reprint of those weak white dwarf rules.

probably not, the rules we may get may either be Spiderfang (they need update Loonshrine rules) or sure up the Moonclan section of the Book just considering that GW doesn't really reprint WD rules like ever

[Ganigumo]

On 11/6/2020 at 5:45 PM, novakai said:

Hot take: Broken realm is going to rewrite the Gobblapalooza Warscroll and Battallion, making  them able to be taken separately by themselves and changing their buffs to be stronger and less restrictive

I'm a little concerned we might only get rules for 1 part of the army (probably moonclan?) In broken realms. The fact we got 2 tome celestials in a row doesn't seem like a coincidence...

If we see gitz in december's white dwarf i'll be convinced.

Warscroll rewrites I'd like to see (in descending order of importance)

Gobbapalooza, dankhold troggoth, arachnaroks, spider riders.

Spider riders could be somewhat fixed with a points drop and some good subfaction rules.

Arachnaroks suffer immensely from their massive base and 8" move. The shaman one is mostly fine since its a support piece, but the others need help.

[C0deb1ue]

I think we will likely have to wait another year or so until the next battletome for everything to be improved properly.

The whole issue is that the current battletome is basically 4 armies that don’t synergise... and have very few actual options.

The way I see it is that there are going to be no useful changes for a very long time so here are some white dwarf rules in the meantime.

By this point, no-one  who wants to be competitive is playing gloomspite anyway, so what’s another year!

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by C0deb1ue

[dirkdragonslayer]

On 11/6/2020 at 5:45 PM, novakai said:

Hot take: Broken realm is going to rewrite the Gobblapalooza Warscroll and Battallion, making  them able to be taken separately by themselves and changing their buffs to be stronger and less restrictive

Don't know if we will get the spotlight at all, but I would love if they revisited some warscrolls. Gobbapalooza is the most obvious one, but I would like to see Dankholds revisited too. Rockguts are bulky and good against armor, Fellwaters are harder to hit and better against hordes, and Dankholds... exist? In a void they aren't bad, but they don't math out very good against other Troggoth/Gloomspite choices. I don't think they need a massive change, maybe an extra attack and/or a change to Squiggly-beast Followers (seriously, a single mortal wound at point blank range against a unit with less than 6 models is terrible).

[PlasticCraic]

36 minutes ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

and/or a change to Squiggly-beast Followers (seriously, a single mortal wound at point blank range against a unit with less than 6 models is terrible).

I think it's just meant to be a little bit of compensation for situations where you basically can't use your Crushing Grip.  Although 3" isn't terrible for these kinds of abilities, so you might occasionally reach over the top of a screen and get both.

I definitely agree that they need some help though.

[novakai]

1 hour ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

Don't know if we will get the spotlight at all, but I would love if they revisited some warscrolls. Gobbapalooza is the most obvious one, but I would like to see Dankholds revisited too. Rockguts are bulky and good against armor, Fellwaters are harder to hit and better against hordes, and Dankholds... exist? In a void they aren't bad, but they don't math out very good against other Troggoth/Gloomspite choices. I don't think they need a massive change, maybe an extra attack and/or a change to Squiggly-beast Followers (seriously, a single mortal wound at point blank range against a unit with less than 6 models is terrible).

i guess if they think we are one of the desperate faction that need some big changes, the only other ones that have similar problems to Gitz are Sylvaneath, BoC, maybe LoN, and Nighthaunt.

 though looking at Broken realm Morathi, the changes really vary between the different armies.  i hope we get at least the IDK treatment with the four warscroll rewrites that they got. or even the new Allegiance ability that Stormcast got could be useful as well.

[Newtype_Zero]

Looks like Gloomspite are getting a new Battleforce this holiday season - loaded with Squigs and Trolls!