AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

[svnvaldez]

9 minutes ago, uratourist said:

Thats why the rest of my list will be 15 hoppers

You can also build 10 hoppers with just the lightest of super glue instead of plastic glue.

plastic glue is amazing on these modern kits but if you just use a dot if super glue you can rip them up and build bounderz if you change your mind (or magnetize) 

[DerZauberer]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Gobbapalooza was a massive miss for me with this book.

Do you think those were a miss rules-wise or just balance wise?

I'm actually really happy with fluff, rules and useability of those guys, but they are just way to expensive and you are somewhat forced to take the battalion, where you are rocking 350 points. Make it ~250 points (including battalion) and you have an amazing "unit" imo.

[Gdead909]

6 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Gobbapalooza was a massive miss for me with this book.  It is a shame too because the models are amazing.  It makes me very sad.

But I have played this army for 25+ years now, so it is not like I am not used to waiting a bit for a unit to get better rules.

I am using them as a cave shaman, a web spinner shaman, and a madcap shaman. The models are amazing........the rules........not so much lol

[Malakree]

37 minutes ago, Gdead909 said:

I am using them as a cave shaman, a web spinner shaman, and a madcap shaman. The models are amazing........the rules........not so much lol

I think the rules are fine they are just incredibly overcosted.

They should be 160 for the 5 and 80 for the battalion. Still niche but 240 for them and the cp/artefact is way more reasonable.

[Gdead909]

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

I think the rules are fine they are just incredibly overcosted.

They should be 160 for the 5 and 80 for the battalion. Still niche but 240 for them and the cp/artefact is way more reasonable.

Ya your right if they were costed like that they would be worthwhile. They are not points efficient as They stand.

[Nickmoss90]

Worth a watch

[Skabnoze]

19 hours ago, DerZauberer said:

Do you think those were a miss rules-wise or just balance wise?

I'm actually really happy with fluff, rules and useability of those guys, but they are just way to expensive and you are somewhat forced to take the battalion, where you are rocking 350 points. Make it ~250 points (including battalion) and you have an amazing "unit" imo.

For me it is a bit of both.  You can fix most things with cost adjustments, and if they put a very hefty cost reduction on these guys then I would certainly be more inclined to use them.  But, I really dislike how this unit is packaged and certain model rules in this unit are a big miss for me.  I also just detest the battalion.

So, I guess let me start with what I like about the unit.  The models are amazing and I love the concept behind each of the different unit members.  They are all cool conceptually.  I also like that GW is using the prayer mechanism for different buff effects in armies.  The non-wizard members of the Gobbapalooza are all functionally using prayers and that was a good idea in terms of rules mechanics.

Now for what I don't like.  First, I greatly dislike that the Gobbapalooza only supports one facet of the Gloomspite book - grots.  In addition many of the "prayers" that some of these models have are just uninventive, not broadly useful, or just sort of poor.  The Brewgit and the Scaremonger are the worst offenders in this regard.  If we are going to drop more buff options, especially an expensive package, into the Grot section of the book then they should be very good.  The Gobbapalooza spells are pretty nice, but not really anything you cannot live without given other available spells.  The "prayers" are extremely niche even for Grots.  You will rarely find that you need the run/charge rerolls from the Scaremonger.  The Brewgit has a good hero buff, but an extremely limited selection of targets for it (wizards, loonbosses on foot, and Skragrott) and so he will often just function as a tax.  The Spiker is good - but only if you are trying to build for a fighting grot build based on the Stab Em Good ability.  This unit seems like it really has an extremely narrow army construction that it supports - otherwise you are effectively paying for overpriced mini-heroes that you don't need.

I am honestly torn about this unit.  They could do a lot of different things that would make me like them more.  If the target restriction for most of the buffs was broadened then I would like them more.  But most of the buffs I would be more interested to use on non-grot units.  The Scaremonger would be more interesting for Squigs or Troggs in many cases I think.  The Brewgit I would prefer to work for ALL Gloomspite.  The guy is just handing out moonshine to heroes.  His buff is simply to reroll misses and while this is a good buff it is not the most amazing or rare ability in the game.  Plenty of armies that are arguably better in combat can hand that buff out like candy already.  The spiker is simply giving out poison for weapons and that fits with just about everyone as well.  So if they change the Gobbapalooza so that they worked more generically across Gloomspite, rather than purely within Moonclan Grots, then I would like them more as they currently function.  That would also make a good unit that fits into the soup style builds - which this army honestly has issue supporting well.

Or if they are meant to work purely within Moonclan Grots then I would like the abilities designed so that they are compelling and effective within that niche.  This means the Scaremonger and the Brewgit should be tweaked in some way.  For example, change the Brewgit so that it no longer has the hero restriction.  I'm honesty not sure about what to do with the Scaremonger in this scenario.

Or they could break the unit up and let people pay for individual members rather than the full group.  That could work also.

I greatly dislike the battalion for a few reaspons.  First, I feel that it took up the spot that could have been used for another interesting Grot battalion.  Except for the Mega battalion there are only 2 battalions for Moonclan Grots.  There is the Gobbapalooza and the Skukmob Horde.  The other battalion is the Squig Rider Stampede and that one is supporting Squig builds (although it is small enough that you can add to a different army).  One of my disappointments with the Gloomspite books are the battalions in general.  I like the concept of battalions, but I find a large amount of the ones in Gloomspite to not be very compelling either due to cost or simply what they do.  Moonclan Grots really got hardly any battalions if you separate out squigs.  The Gobbapalooza does not really do anything interesting or compelling.  The only compelling thing I see is that it is possibly the cheapest battalion if you are just looking for another relic - and if that is the selling point for a battalion then I contend it is a very poorly designed battalion.

So long story short, all I know is that the Gobbapalooza unit just really did not land for me.  I love the models and I love the concept behind the various characters - but I just find them to be one of the least compelling parts of the book and that is a real shame.  They could do a ton of different things to make me like the unit and I am not picky about what it is.  But in their current state I just can't see using them very much at all.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Skabnoze

[FlatTooth]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

For me it is a bit of both.  You can fix most things with cost adjustments, and if they put a very hefty cost reduction on these guys then I would certainly be more inclined to use them.  But, I really dislike how this unit is packaged and certain models in this unit are a big miss for me.  I also just detest the battalion.

So, I guess let me start with what I like about the unit.  The models are amazing and I love the concept behind each of the different unit members.  They are all cool conceptually.  I also like that GW is using the prayer mechanism for different buff effects in armies.  The non-wizard members of the Gobbapalooza are all functionally using prayers and that was a good idea in terms of rules mechanics.

Now for what I don't like.  First, I greatly dislike that the Gobbapalooza only supports one facet of the Gloomspite book - grots.  In addition many of the "prayers" that some of these models have are just uninventive, not broadly useful, or just sort of poor.  The Brewgit and the Scaremonger are the worst offenders in this regard.  If we are going to drop more buff options, especially an expensive package, into the Grot section of the book then they should be very good.  The Gobbapalooza spells are pretty nice, but not really anything you cannot live without given other available spells.  The "prayers" are extremely niche even for Grots.  You will rarely find that you need the run/charge rerolls from the Scaremonger.  The Brewgit has a good hero buff, but an extremely limited selection of targets for it (wizards, loonbosses on foot, and Skragrott) and so he will often just function as a tax.  The Spiker is good - but only if you are trying to build for a fighting grot build based on the Stab Em Good ability.  This unit seems like it really has an extremely narrow army construction that it supports - otherwise you are effectively paying for overpriced mini-heroes that you don't need.

I am honestly torn about this unit.  They could do a lot of different things that would make me like them more.  If the target restriction for most of the buffs was broadened then I would like them more.  But most of the buffs I would be more interested to use on non-grot units.  The Scaremonger would be more interesting for Squigs or Troggs in many cases I think.  The Brewgit I would prefer to work for ALL Gloomspite.  The guy is just handing out moonshine to heroes.  His buff is simply to reroll misses and while this is a good buff it is not the most amazing or rare ability in the game.  Plenty of armies that are arguably better in combat can hand that buff out like candy already.  The spiker is simply giving out poison for weapons and that fits with just about everyone as well.  So if they change the Gobbapalooza so that they worked more generically across Gloomspite, rather than purely within Moonclan Grots, then I would like them more as they currently function.  That would also make a good unit that fits into the soup style builds - which this army honestly has issue supporting well.

Or if they are meant to work purely within Moonclan Grots then I would like the abilities designed so that they are compelling and effective within that niche.  This means the Scaremonger and the Brewgit should be tweaked in some way.  For example, change the Brewgit so that it no longer has the hero restriction.  I'm honesty not sure about what to do with the Scaremonger in this scenario.

Or they could break the unit up and let people pay for individual members rather than the full group.  That could work also.

I greatly dislike the battalion for a few reaspons.  First, I feel that it took up the spot that could have been used for another interesting Grot battalion.  Except for the Mega battalion there are only 2 battalions for Moonclan Grots.  There is the Gobbapalooza and the Skukmob Horde.  The other battalion is the Squig Rider Stampede and that one is supporting Squig builds (although it is small enough that you can add to a different army).  One of my disappointments with the Gloomspite books are the battalions in general.  I like the concept of battalions, but I find a large amount of the ones in Gloomspite to not be very compelling either due to cost or simply what they do.  Moonclan Grots really got hardly any battalions if you separate out squigs.  The Gobbapalooza does not really do anything interesting or compelling.  The only compelling thing I see is that it is possibly the cheapest battalion if you are just looking for another relic - and if that is the selling point for a battalion then I contend it is a very poorly designed battalion.

So long story short, all I know is that the Gobbapalooza unit just really did not land for me.  I love the models and I love the concept behind the various characters - but I just find them to be one of the least compelling parts of the book and that is a real shame.  They could do a ton of different things to make me like the unit and I am not picky about what it is.  But in their current state I just can't see using them very much at all.

I pretty much agree with all of this. I wish the gobbapalooza and the terrain feature functioned based on your general choice. Like, if you’ve got a trogboss as a general the terrain brings back troggs instead of grots etc. 

 

maybe that’d be nuts or something, I duno!

[PlasticCraic]

4 minutes ago, FlatTooth said:

I pretty much agree with all of this. I wish the gobbapalooza and the terrain feature functioned based on your general choice. Like, if you’ve got a trogboss as a general the terrain brings back troggs instead of grots etc. 

That would be my one great wish for the army, that you could summon back all Battleline units.

5 minutes ago, FlatTooth said:

maybe that’d be nuts or something, I duno!

I do think it's an example of them going out of their way to make sure the army wasn't too good, but by the same token I don't think it was necessary.

Other armies can summon their entire range of Daemons, so you're talking free Keeper of Secrets.  What's the problem with a few Troggs in that context?  They're only Troggs!  They'll kill stuff and die, it's fine.  They are in no way a problematic unit.

If anything, the one thing we can summon back is a huge fun sponge.  Swarms of table blocking, debuffing garbage.  A handful of free Troggoths would surely be better for your opponent to deal with than that.

[PlasticCraic]

23 hours ago, uratourist said:

Also curious, do you think spiderfang and squigs have the potential to exist in the same list? The speed, fly, and damage potential together seem intriguing. 

I know @Nico was running a big block each of spiders and squigs in his Gloomspite army - not sure how it went, or if he is still running them together?

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm back in the armylist building mode, and am gathering the Gitz.  I have the Troggoth Hag, 2 Fungoid Shaman, 1 old metal MadCap Shaman, and the Endless Spells so far.  Was thinking about all Troggoths but I have Bullgors for a small elite choppy force.   I don't really wanna do mobs and mobs of gobbos, so I'm tossing between Squigs and Spiders. 

I see that a  Spider Riders could dish out many mortal wounds potentially with the Arachnarok Shaman and the Scuttleboss with a Totem as general (to make them Battleline).  I also like the Spider Rider speed, something my other armies lack, and they fly across terrain (and the Scuttletide spell, which I've been bogged down by many a time now).   However to do a whole Spiderfang super battalion, the Stalktribe?, looks like it takes a whole 2K and would leave no room for the other wizards I have.  But the little Skitterswarm, and maybe just the ArachnaShaman would suffice for a good use of the Spider Riders?

As for Squigs, an entire Squigalanche can be had with Hoppers and Squig Herds as battleline, and include most of my wizards.  Though Squigs seem less good, slower, less killy, aside from the Mangler Boss/Mangler.  Frankly I think just a Mangler Boss/Boss on Giant Squig/Colossal Squig might be the best Squig combo.

Hmmm, would something mixed like this be viable?  Or too few bodies?  That Madcap Shaman just doesn't seem to fit into any  of my lists I've tinkered with.  A Webspinner Shaman might be better with all the spiders, they have some good spells....

Hag

Fungoid Shaman x 2

Scuttleboss on Gigantic Spider (general, master rider, totem of the spider god)

Loonboss on Manglers

Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig

4x5 Spider Riders (battleline)

Colossal Squig

Spider Rider Skitterswarm

Mork's Mushroom

Scuttletide

[svnvaldez]

3 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

would something mixed like this be viable?  Or too few bodies?

I am a huge proponent of taking what you want.

I think often we worry far too much about list building. At the top end competitive play list building makes and breaks your game. But for 90% of games most people play.... if you have a solid core of an army it is more than good enough.

However I don't think the list you proposed is even a remotely functioning 2k list. Far to few bodies and I can't see you winning or having fun on the table. I modified it a bit and posted it below... something like this is more than fine imo. Alternatively you could build around 30x1 + 5x2 spider riders (ie swap the 60 stabbas out).

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (380)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (300)
Scuttleboss on Gigantic Spider (100)
- General

Battleline
10 x Spider Riders (200)
60 x Stabbas (360)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
5 x Spider Riders (100)
5 x Spider Riders (100)

Battalions
Spider Rider Skittermob (120)

Endless Spells
Mork's Mighty Mushroom (80)
Scuttletide (30)

Total: 1950 / 2000

[svnvaldez]

And if you really like the spiders you could always swap the Loonboss on Mangler for a Arock. Both these lists are not optimal GS lists so I would recommend building what you want. 

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz

Leaders
Troggoth Hag (380)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Scuttleboss on Gigantic Spider (100)
Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (300)
- General

Battleline
30 x Spider Riders (540)
5 x Spider Riders (100)
5 x Spider Riders (100)

Battalions
Spider Rider Skittermob (120)

Endless Spells
Mork's Mighty Mushroom (80)
Scuttletide (30)

Total: 1930 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124
 

[Lord Krungharr]

Thank you for your advice!  I see your point about bodies; so key for objective holding, which definitely is a challenge later in the game with too few bodies.  Those big monsters bracket down hard so they end up not being able to squish enough enemies to take control later.

The big Spider Shaman is a great wizard too, getting +1 to cast naturally.

[svnvaldez]

Also remember that units get re-pointed each year and one FAQ can alter the power of an entire army. I think a good rule of thumb is to take 1 max sized battleline unit and a variety of hero types (at least: 1 big monster, 1 wizard, etc etc)

[GlitzFan]

Who thinks that loonsmasha fanatics are overpriced and not very good? 

[GlitzFan]

Also can somebody please explain how the loonsmashas work when that unit of grots have been charged first by the enemy? 

[Skreech Verminking]

19 minutes ago, GlitzFan said:

Who thinks that loonsmasha fanatics are overpriced and not very good? 

Don’t know, just started with Gloomspite Gitz.

they are surely pricy but on paper they seem good as a damage dealing meathsield unit.

havent tried them out yet though (nor do I have them yet ) but you they definitely should be a interesting unit.

14 minutes ago, GlitzFan said:

Also can somebody please explain how the loonsmashas work when that unit of grots have been charged first by the enemy? 

You release the smashas at the beginning of the phase before any charges are made.

[Forrix]

6 hours ago, GlitzFan said:

Who thinks that loonsmasha fanatics are overpriced and not very good? 

I think they were fine before the activation wars started but nowadays they're only meh.

[mikethefish]

On 5/20/2019 at 5:11 PM, Skabnoze said:

I agree, but at least Spiderfang is in a better place with this book than before.  Simply rolling them into a real Battletome was a fantastic first step.  My hope is that in the future when Gloomspite is rewritten (it will happen eventually) that they choose to concentrate on expanding Spiderfang. 

I believe it was at Warhammer Fest that the devs stated in one their seminars that they were unhappy with how Gloomspite was performing, as an army, and that the army would be given some assistance in the next GHB.

Certainly we can expect points drops.  There's a chance that some Scrolls get a change too.  Not sure it's a GOOD chance, but there it is.

[Jetengine]

2 hours ago, mikethefish said:

I believe it was at Warhammer Fest that the devs stated in one their seminars that they were unhappy with how Gloomspite was performing, as an army, and that the army would be given some assistance in the next GHB.

Certainly we can expect points drops.  There's a chance that some Scrolls get a change too.  Not sure it's a GOOD chance, but there it is.

What do you reckon will get cheaper ?

[novakai]

1 hour ago, Jetengine said:

What do you reckon will get cheaper ?

probably the Troggboss and regular Dankhold

some of the Araknorok variants may too.

hopefully, the Gobblapaloza and Loonsmasha/Sporesplatta fanatic goes down too

a lot of the battalions could be cheaper too

at this point, I think the Bounders price will stay the same

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by novakai

[FlatTooth]

1 hour ago, Jetengine said:

What do you reckon will get cheaper ?

I wouldn’t be surprised to see loonsmashas and the gobbapalooza drop a bit. I Also wouldn’t be surprised to see regular hoppers dropped a bit but who knows! I’d just kill for the battalions to drop a bit. I love my stampede but it’s pricey for sure. Also would love if the Loonboss on Manglers was able to be a part of the squig rider stampede!

[Skabnoze]

15 minutes ago, novakai said:

at this point, I think the Bounders price will stay the same

At this point I think Bounders and probably Fellwater Troggs are the only things I would consider potentially safe from cost adjustments.  Everything else I think will depend on how aggressive they feel they should be for Gloomspite.  I think you could potentially make the case for various cost tweaks (standard cost or horde discounts) for almost everything else in the book.  How far they go will depend on how far off the mark they feel this book is.

That said, they have historically erred on the side of careful updates so I would not expect adjustments for more than a few things.  Of those the obvious ones I think are the Dankhold Troggoth, Troggboss, and the Gobbapalooza. 

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, mikethefish said:

I believe it was at Warhammer Fest that the devs stated in one their seminars that they were unhappy with how Gloomspite was performing, as an army, and that the army would be given some assistance in the next GHB.

Certainly we can expect points drops.  There's a chance that some Scrolls get a change too.  Not sure it's a GOOD chance, but there it is.

I don't expect warscroll changes.  So far GW has seemed to take the position of only adjusting the Warscrolls in very extreme cases.  You can do a whole lot with cost adjustments, but in my opinion some things just really need rules adjustments (ie:  Aleguzzler Gargant).  GW has become a lot better these last few years in regards to tweaking the state of the game in between editions.  Their errata/clarifications system is pretty decent and the GHB is a decent way to take a shot at leveling the playing field periodically. 

The one area that I would like to see GW improve in is their timeframe for changing written rules when that is the best way forward for the improvement of the game.  I am sure that they are erring on the side of avoiding that as much as possible due to the issue of logistics with how invested they still are with physical products for rules.  They still sell expensive books and of course they want customers to feel that those books have long-term value so that people still keep purchasing them.  I am almost certain the margins on their books are higher than most of the rest of the products they sell and that assumption helps explain why they have gone so book-heavy the last ~5 years across all their games in terms of the products they sell.  But even so, there are cases where I think rule changes are a better route for improvement than simple points.  Changing warscrolls, allegiance abilities, relics, general traits, spells, etc can have massive impact on how armies perform (and I assume how they sell).  But to me this feels like an issue that has it's roots in logistics of how to roll out changes like that without negatively impacting book sales and I am not sure GW has figured that out. 

So I expect that we won't see more than cost updates.  The biggest type of errata change I could see coming to warscrolls would potentially be adjustment of keywords.  That seems like a low-impact change in regards to existing physical products but that could be a big change for army performance.