AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

[Skabnoze]

36 minutes ago, novakai said:

I feel like Spiderfang would be better if they had a little bit more going for them in the book

I agree, but at least Spiderfang is in a better place with this book than before.  Simply rolling them into a real Battletome was a fantastic first step.  My hope is that in the future when Gloomspite is rewritten (it will happen eventually) that they choose to concentrate on expanding Spiderfang. 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

A lot do, but not every player is like this.  There is variance even within competitive players.  There are people that will try to squeeze every drop of gas from the tank of something that they really like rather than going for another army.   And all it will take is a couple of trail-blazers to put on a good showing and there will be other people who will take a look that otherwise might not have.

I just want to piggy back on this to give a shout out to Steve Dooley.

He's been playing Darkling Covens for longer than I've been doing tournaments. He just claimed 38th with the Covens and managed FOUR MAJOR WINS!!!

Honestly if there is any player who you should look at to discover how much skill impacts the game it's him, any other player takes that army and we get dumpstered on. He's soldiered on with it to become such an expert it's unbelievable.

[PlasticCraic]

I don't think we're really disagreeing on Boingrots...their base movement is low and unreliable which is an inherent weakness that needs to be (and is) costed in.

Their top speed is actually very high (it's higher than the 12" you cite with run and charge etc), but you won't often reach anywhere near that, because applying all the buffs is pretty inefficient.  

Where I think we disagree is on the Hoppers...they aren't actually that much faster.

Top speed, it comes down to:

9" guaranteed + 4D6" rerollable (Bounders)

9" guaranteed + 5D6" rerollable (Hoppers)

The relatively minor gap in speed isn't enough to make up for the wider gap in output and durability. 

Or putting it another way, and looking at it in terms of their different roles that you are citing (and which I agree with): Hoppers unbuffed still aren't reliably fast, which is a major weakness for light cav, so they are less efficient in their light cav role because of it. 

And for that reason I don't think you'll see a lot of them until they get a points drop that reflects the fact they need support pieces to approach that top speed.

8 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

I don’t think I would ever say that Boingrots have insane speed - they top out at the standard speed of fast cav (12”).  Most of the time they are going to be moving 6”-8” (without the boss speed increase) and that is solidly slower than the average speed of heavy cavalry (10”).

Hoppers on the other hand are fairly fast.  They will average out to somewhere between heavy cavalry and fast cavalry and when they roll high they can become absurdly fast.  They have access to all the same buffs as Boingrots to make them even faster.

See I think this is where you're being too generous to Hoppers.  You cite 10" as the average speed of heavy cav, but Hoppers are only averaging 10.5"

They are essentially light cav moving only at heavy cav speed, and with an unreliability tax to boot.  

8 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Boingrots lack the high speed of hoppers and the ability to inflict damage outside of the combat phase.

That one is factually incorrect I'm afraid, Boingrots do their mortal wounds in the charge phase.

Out of interest - are you running Hoppers yourself?  Are you getting much joy out of them?

Edited May 20, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[PlasticCraic]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

I agree, but at least Spiderfang is in a better place with this book than before.  Simply rolling them into a real Battletome was a fantastic first step.  My hope is that in the future when Gloomspite is rewritten (it will happen eventually) that they choose to concentrate on expanding Spiderfang. 

I'm pretty keen on seeing what the GH brings for Spiderfang - I'm cautiously optimistic about a points drop for Spider Riders.

[uratourist]

3 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

I honestly can't tell you that.  In the end this is your decision to make based upon the type of army you want to play.

 

I agree. I think that while I like the solid nature of bounderz, and will probably build 20-30 of them, I like hoppers as battleline with their speed and damage potential. Im thinking of maybe building them in a hoard style? Though I think min sized units hold value of their own.

 

A blob of stabbas will probably be necessary just due to having a solid blob that cant be moved, but some magic for board denial. Also curious, do you think spiderfang and squigs have the potential to exist in the same list? The speed, fly, and damage potential together seem intriguing. 

[svnvaldez]

13 minutes ago, uratourist said:

Also curious, do you think spiderfang and squigs have the potential to exist in the same list?

I don't think they can work all that well currently.

For squigs to be effective they need the support of all the characters and spells that target keyword SQUIG. Same goes for spiderfang needing the support of all the characters and spells that target keyword SPIDERFANG.

You run out of points super fast. After the GH thou who knows.

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

I'm pretty keen on seeing what the GH brings for Spiderfang - I'm cautiously optimistic about a points drop for Spider Riders.

I think they could use point discounts for the non-shaman arachnaroks, the foot shaman, and the battalions as well.  In fact, I think the whole Gloomspite book needs the majority of battalions reduced in cost.

[PlasticCraic]

31 minutes ago, uratourist said:

I agree. I think that while I like the solid nature of bounderz, and will probably build 20-30 of them, I like hoppers as battleline with their speed and damage potential.  Im thinking of maybe building them in a hoard style? Though I think min sized units hold value of their own.

If I was going to run Hoppers, it would be in a Squigalanche.  I personally think that's their main use:

 - Run over the top of enemies and do Mortal Wounds

- You can then pile back in each unit from 6" away at your leisure

- Bounders on the other hand really want to charge (both for their shock MW and their rerolls) so the 6" pile in is less useful

What I'd be looking at in this case is something like a Mangler Boss to give everyone rerolls, a large unit of Boingrots to charge and activate normally, and MSU Hoppers to run over the top of everyone and pile back in. 

You don't need the Hoppers to be in a large unit to leverage them: the Squig buffs are AOE rather than pick a unit, and piling in from 6" away means you get the output of swinging first from all of them rather than every other unit.  Hence I would go MSU with them and enjoy the flexibility.

I'd also look at something like Doppelganger on the Mangler boss, keeping him near the Boingrots on your strong flank or in the middle.  Activate the Cloak, swing with the Boingrots first, then pile in all of your MSU Hoppers one by one while your opponent is hamstrung by the Cloak.  Save your Mangler Boss until the very end, and you have made your own little High Tide of squigs.

With Skraggy (to lock the moon in place) and a single block of Grots to buy time, it's potentially 3 drops, but points get very tight very quickly due to needing 2 batallions, and a compulsory second Mangler.  Where it gets really annoying is that the Hoppers and Bounders are limited to 2-3 units...if they were 2+ units, or the Big Battallion included "any other Squig unit", you'd be in better shape and could really leverage the MSU Hoppers.

I think there could be a decent army there personally, I don't intend to buy a second Mangler and some Hoppers to find out though!  Not any time soon at least.

[uratourist]

Which artefact is the cloak? or is it a non battletome artefact

 

[mcbrain]

4 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I'm pretty keen on seeing what the GH brings for Spiderfang - I'm cautiously optimistic about a points drop for Spider Riders.

I'll be all over this like stink on a gorilla.

 

Can't wait for a reason to field all 40 of my spider riders alongside 2 webspinners on arachnarok and a boatload of troggoths.

[svnvaldez]

51 minutes ago, uratourist said:

Which artefact is the cloak? or is it a non battletome artefact

Doppelganger Cloak from malign sorcery. Control F it here to learn about it if you do not own the book. I don't think sharing this link is against any forum rules since it is not a pdf of the book.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Age_of_Sigmar/Tactics/Malign_Sorcery#Ulgu

Edited May 21, 2019 by svnvaldez

[uratourist]

51 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

Doppelganger Cloak from malign sorcery. Control F it here to learn about it if you do not own the book. I don't think sharing this link is against any forum rules since it is not a pdf of the book.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Age_of_Sigmar/Tactics/Malign_Sorcery#Ulgu

Can these be used in matched play?

[PlasticCraic]

14 minutes ago, uratourist said:

Can these be used in matched play?

Absolutely they can!

It varies pack to pack what each TO will do for Realm rules.  By default the artefacts are available in matched play, a player pack would have to proactively ban them for some reason.  I've never seen that happen.

Out of all the Realm stuff that came out, they seem to be the one thing that has got 100% traction, in my experience at least.

[svnvaldez]

26 minutes ago, uratourist said:

Can these be used in matched play?

Such a difficult question that I wish had a simple answer  I have to take long breaks from social media after discussions of how to play matched play arise lol. So...

Q) Are they legal in matched play?

A) Yes. Matched play is described in the core rule book starting on pg 306 and ends on about 317. Also make sure to read all FAQs for the Core book to see if anything written has been officially altered. Long story short thou is matched play is simply a way to create a standard army size that 2 players can use vs each other. There are some rules such as min battleline, max heroes, warscrolls must have pitched battle profiles and be the most current... etc etc. But yes MS is legal in matched play (so is Firestorm, Wrath and Rapture, and such)

Here is the problem... 

Matched play does not equal competitive play /organized play/ tournament play.  When you attend a tournament or any kind of organized event sometimes the TO does not have the player play straight from the book (even after stating that you will be using matched play rules)... This is the single worst thing in AOS and its long term growth imo. GW posted an article on what a TO should state when they run a event. Picture below. Before every event you need to make sure what kind of AOS you are playing and what rules you are using.

Edited May 21, 2019 by svnvaldez

[svnvaldez]

I am hopeful there will be more guidance for organized play in the next GH. I believe I read somewhere that the GH will include tournament templates to streamline the confusion of what rules to include / what realm scapes  and battleplans to play

[Skabnoze]

6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I don't think we're really disagreeing on Boingrots...their base movement is low and unreliable which is an inherent weakness that needs to be (and is) costed in.

Their top speed is actually very high (it's higher than the 12" you cite with run and charge etc), but you won't often reach anywhere near that, because applying all the buffs is pretty inefficient.  

Where I think we disagree is on the Hoppers...they aren't actually that much faster.

Top speed, it comes down to:

9" guaranteed + 4D6" rerollable (Bounders)

9" guaranteed + 5D6" rerollable (Hoppers)

The relatively minor gap in speed isn't enough to make up for the wider gap in output and durability. 

Or putting it another way, and looking at it in terms of their different roles that you are citing (and which I agree with): Hoppers unbuffed still aren't reliably fast, which is a major weakness for light cav, so they are less efficient in their light cav role because of it. 

There is a lot to unpack here.  I'll do my best.

First let me say that I don't disagree with your number assessment.  I don't think Hoppers are naturally an extremely fast unit.  I think that they are naturally the fastest Squig unit and faster than Bounders.  They have the potential to be one of the fastest units in the game (18" normal move is bonkers fast) but that is going to be a pretty rare occurrence without some sort of mechanic such as an individual dice reroll or roll an extra dice and drop one.  But we don't have a rule like that and what we do have is a flat speed buff and a full movement reroll.  That said, while they are still somewhat unreliable they are less prone to extreme dice swings than Bounders simply through having a larger dice pool. 

I honestly don't really like using the median or mean values for assessing probability curves because it is not an overly effective tool for situations where you have small sample pools.  Those values are useful for a casino to figure out house odds because they are working over a colossal amount of events (say dice rolls for craps tables).  For our purposes you will get at most 6 turns of movement from a unit in a game.  My preference is to look at the probability ranges as they give you a better idea of what to plan for.  For 2d6 the range of 6-8 is roughly 45% and if you expand that out to 5-9 it gets to roughly 68%.  I generally plan around the 6-8 range because it is almost half of the results range and it is still a pretty tight range.  For 3d6 10-11 makes up 25% of results, 9-12 makes up about 45% of results, and 8-13 hits around 68%.  The probability distribution for dice starts to sort of flatten out the more dice you add to it and so Hoppers are going to be more reliable than Bounders.  By the same logic the Colossal Squig is more reliable than Hoppers since his movement is 4d6.  The rule of thumb most people utilize for taking relying upon mean values is not terrible - but bear in mind that I am an engineer by trade and so I prefer a more nuanced evaluation of probabilities.  I bring this up not to try to invalidate anything you or others post, but more to give a view into the sort of thought behind some stuff that I post.

Now that that is out of the way, I want to again state that I don't disagree with the numbers you posted.  However, I personally don't think they are a very useful comparison for a few reasons.  First, top speed with this many dice involved and no real dice manipulation abilities means the odds are so miniscule that they are not useful outside of non-practical thought experiments.  Secondly, and I think more importantly, this comparison illustrates (at least to me) that we are potentially taking a flawed evaluation of these two units because we are comparing their movement with the assumption that it is for the same purpose.  Most movement comparisons between these two units works off of the basic "threat range" assumption - which is generally the idea that Unit A is moving as fast as it can in a straight line to charge into unit B.  This is a good thing to understand and exactly the sort of thing you want to understand for Bounders, but I don't think it is necessarily the best way to view Hoppers.

6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

That one is factually incorrect I'm afraid, Boingrots do their mortal wounds in the charge phase.

You are absolutely correct here and I inaccurately made my point.  My point was simply that Boingrots gain a significant enough boost from charging that they really need to do so.  Hoppers gain nothing at all from charging aside from making it into combat.  I think there is a subtle difference here to explore and I think it very much can make a difference for how you can evaluate these units.  Here are couple simple cases to examine for Hoppers:

1. The Hopper unit moves over the top of an enemy front-line unit, damaging them as it crosses, and then lands behind that unit to set up for a charge into backline units.
2. The Hopper unit moves over the top of an enemy unit (maybe on an objective), damaging them as it crosses, and then charges back into the unit.
3. The Hopper unit moves over an enemy unit on it's way to some other portion of the battlefield and damages them as it crosses - there is no resulting charge in this case.
4. The Hopper unit disengages from a previous combat, crosses the unit and inflicts damage, and heads off to some other place on the board - there is no resulting charge in this case.

Out of these cases only half of them require a charge, and none of them are necessarily straight-line movement simply trying to charge into a unit.  The first case is closest to the example of full threat range.  The reason I think this distinction is important is what it implies for how you approach movement buffs or rerolls for these 2 units.  For Bounders you will want to plan for needing a 5-7" movement in most cases.  More is better, but you can reliably expect to get those initial movement values.  What you are planning for is to get into direct charge range.  Hoppers are the least well suited of the Squig units to a direct charge into the enemy.  They don't have the charge bonuses and rider attacks of the Bounders and they can't pack as many squig attacks into a combat as Squig Herd due to the 32mm base size preventing second rank attacks (people really ignore this advantage of Squig Herds I have noticed).  Hoppers have the unique ability to inflict mortal wound as the move (they share this with Hexwraiths and Terradons - I posit that the Hoppers have the superior version) and so it is with this sort of use we should think about their movement.  They don't just want to get TO the enemy - they want to get OVER the enemy.  This means they need enough movement to clear the enemy unit and be placed 3" away.  While the difference between an average 7" vs an average 10.5" may not seem that big - it is exactly the extra bit needed to land on the other side of a unit you have enough movement to cross.

I think this use distinction also will change how people use buffs or the squig rider rerolls.  With Bounders you are going to generally play it safe (unless you need a late-game hail mary) and use the reroll to keep the unit from rolling too badly so that you can get to charge.   With Hoppers the distribution curve is more favorable and so you may be inclined to use the reroll to try to push for the higher end of speed in order to bounce over units.

As I have said before, I view Hoppers very much as a janky harasser unit.  They are very much light cavalry.  They might not on average be the fastest light cavalry in the game, but their role is the same.  They are going to use their combination of speed and flight to try to prey on weaker targets and mess with the opponents battle lines.  They also have a very unique ability to be able to drop mortal wounds on targets as they cross and this should not be overlooked.  They can soften up the front lines as they bounce over for another unit to charge (like Bounders).  They can wound a big monster and push it down it's degradation chart without engaging the monster directly.  They can potentially assassinate small support heroes through movement alone.  And they fight well enough in combat to be a threat to other small or fragile units.

I do not think this is the best unit in the book.  I do not think this unit is better than Boingrots.  What I think is that they are very different, but look extremely similar on the surface.  I absolutely believe that Hoppers have really interesting and unique potential uses that very good players can take advantage of but that don't necessarily lend themselves to pure statistical discussions.  Think of them sort of like the Knight piece in Chess - they are really weird and don't obey the basic rules that other units necessarily adhere to.  They are something where I think the real potential is going to be unlocked by people earnestly exploring their use through play and less through a discussion of numbers.  Those pieces exist in AoS and in my opinion the Hoppers are that unit for Gloomspite.  Others may disagree and that is fine.

6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Out of interest - are you running Hoppers yourself?  Are you getting much joy out of them?

Yes, but I will fully admit that due to a very heavy work-load and 4 kids (one with special needs) my game time has been somewhat rare.  So I have not too many games.  However, I have loved my Hopper models for a couple decades and they have honestly never been good in any version of the game until now.  I mainly used them because I liked the unit and they were fun and I would include at least a small token unit that was cheap enough to not be a liability.  Sometimes they did fun stuff, but most of the time they bounced around ineffectually.

The Gloomspite book is the first time I have seen this unit actually have real potential use - and so I have been keen to explore it.  I have not played a lot of games, but I have found the simple tactic of bouncing over the front lines, causing damage, and then hitting softer rear/mid line targets to be surprisingly effective.  I have also found their ability to disengage from combat and still cause damage by bouncing over the enemy to be sneakily useful.

Certainly don't take my word as proof.  But I do recommend that people make real efforts to try to use this unit in weird ways and not simply as a straight-up combat unit.  If you try to use them in the way that you would use Bounders then you are bound to be disappointed as Bounders are better at their role in every way.  But on the flip side the Hoppers can do things that the Bounders cannot do or simply are not at all good at.  Be open-minded and try new stuff.  Group think can lead to stagnation.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Skabnoze

[Skabnoze]

Note that none of my previous post really has anything to do with point costs.  I don’t think that is terribly relevant to the points I was trying to make - although point costs are still important.  I think the more recent books have really driven home the idea that GW was very overly conservative with the point costs in some of the early AoS 2.0 books like NightHaunt and Gloomspite.  Let’s hope they remedy that with the GHB as it is a pretty simple fix.

[PlasticCraic]

Yep agreed with most of that @Skabnoze - I think we're agreeing on about 90% of this and disagreeing on maybe 10%, it's an interesting discussion but I'm happy to move on from it now if you are.  Always interested to hear of any succesful or interesting ways that people have found to use units.

[Skabnoze]

1 minute ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yep agreed with most of that @Skabnoze - I think we're agreeing on about 90% of this and disagreeing on maybe 10%, it's an interesting discussion but I'm happy to move on from it now if you are.  Always interested to hear of any succesful or interesting ways that people have found to use units.

Sure.  I think most of our disagreement was splitting hairs.  But I did not mean all of that just in response to you and more as a general statement.  I just feel that most discussions I see about Hoppers appear to be evaluating them as a front-line combat unit or as a “hammer” and they are something entirely different in my opinion.

That said, I think they have a bit more use than just in the Squigalanche as you said in a subsequent post.  They certainly do fit well into that battalion, but I think they have use outside of it.  However, I do think they generally will want to be used in a Squig Rider Stampede - which I also feel is priced too high as a battalion and I really hope GW addresses that in the next GHB.

[svnvaldez]

Both Hoppers and Bounderz are trash! Take 180 grots till a repoint  I kid I kid

[uratourist]

Good Points all around! Ill definitely be rethinking my list, thought my purchases will probably be the same. It just changes how many squig calvary units I build of each variety.

For 1000 points, I'm guessing the mangler and bounderz will be more than enough damage to pound through lists like Stormcast or maggotkin?

 

The only other thing I want to try is the gobbopalooza, but I've heard mixed things on that

[Skabnoze]

Gobbapalooza was a massive miss for me with this book.  It is a shame too because the models are amazing.  It makes me very sad.

But I have played this army for 25+ years now, so it is not like I am not used to waiting a bit for a unit to get better rules.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Skabnoze

[svnvaldez]

5 minutes ago, uratourist said:

For 1000 points, I'm guessing the mangler and bounderz 

At 1k if you have a Loonboss on mangler and 10 bounderz I think you’ll be very happy with the core of your list and be able to punch through most things.

Fill out the other 500 points how you see fit. Remember AOS is an objective based game. You can have the best list possible and kill everything but still lose if you forget the goals of each battleplan.

[svnvaldez]

8 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Gobbapalooza

Sadly the best use of the Gobbapalooza is probably proxies for 5 cave shams. I hope the GH or an FAQ gives those guys a bit of a boost.

They are great models

Edited May 21, 2019 by svnvaldez

[uratourist]

4 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

At 1k if you have a Loonboss on mangler and 10 bounderz I think you’ll be very happy with the core of your list and be able to punch through most things.

Fill out the other 500 points how you see fit. Remember AOS is an objective based game. You can have the best list possible and kill everything but still lose if you forget the goals of each battleplan.

Thats why the rest of my list will be 15 hoppers, 10 squigs, and a fungoid shaman. I figured a durable shaman with command point potential would be good, and the hoppers could grab objectives/support the mangler. The squigs were mainly to hold on objective, but Im not sure if I need more than ten of them for them to last.