Big FAQ?

[King Taloren]

25 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

You‘d have to increase  points (Witches) while decreasing points for less chosen Units (Blood Stalkers) to shift what will be chosen. (Same goes for Idoneth, Stromcasts etc.).  —> Shifting Points not necessarily increasing them.

also a slight rules change for the Witch Elves like „need to be wholly within 7“ of a DoK Hero“ might work, since you can‘t spread out anymore. Or simply change two Daggers to „May reroll hit rolls of 1“ instead of +1 Attack. Or make the hag brew cause a MW to the unit on a 6 (per Model, No Fabatical Faith allowed) and suddenly Witch Hordes are going to nuke themselves if they want to stay buffed while smaller Groups will not care as much.

they could‘ve done that with the FAQ, but they didn‘t.

The major problem is that even if you decreased points on certain units the overall value in the horde witch meta is to the point that even if other units were cheaper it wouldn’t make an impact because even if you swapped the values of the witches with stalkers the witches are still more value per point imho than to take blood stalkers. Though really it’s the hero buffs that make them so strong. Alone they are decent but thralls unbuffed are better tha witches unbuffed. And order battleline too.

[RuneBrush]

27 minutes ago, Overread said:

If GW balances that against solid Skirmish rules which can soak up the entry level and lower point games, then we could see 2K still being the standard in 10 years time, but the number of actual models we could field might be well over double what we put down now. That has huge implications on balance and army composition; esp as factions grow over time. 

I'm hoping you're wrong on that, but suspect you might not be.  We know that one of the biggest issues with WHFB was the super high price point to get into it - you could easily sink upwards of £500 on an army and it'd be a real shame to have that situation over again.  The biggest thing I've got against it is transporting a big army is a nightmare!  Especially if you use public transport

[Overread]

Just now, RuneBrush said:

I'm hoping you're wrong on that, but suspect you might not be.  We know that one of the biggest issues with WHFB was the super high price point to get into it - you could easily sink upwards of £500 on an army and it'd be a real shame to have that situation over again.  The biggest thing I've got against it is transporting a big army is a nightmare!  Especially if you use public transport

I fully expect GW to grow the system because as time passes longer term fans end up with more models and armies grow in variety like Stormcast. Plus more mechanics means more questions. Take how 40K now has huge lords of war, air units, tanks, infantry, close combat etc... Those are all questions that need answers so puts onus on having more model variety on the table.

Armies that are currently small don't often feel it as much because they are often able to actually put down the entire range. You can put down most of the models ofr Daughters of Khaine and have a functional army right now without problems. You can't do that for Stormcast (yes that's comparing extremes). 

 

So as time passes I fully expect the game to grow, however the difference to fantasy of old I think will be:

1) Fantasy of old didn't have a skirmish mode that was pushed by GW. Taking something like skirmish or killteam out of the big book and making it its own game means that people can buy into that and only that. They get into that where they only need 1 box of models to play. Then they get a second to have some variety, then they add a leader; now they are adding a3rd box and they are well into their way to that 500 point+ army. 

2) Marketing - there's no denying that when Lord of the Rings came along, GW pushed it hard and above their own Fantasy line. I dont' think they'll make that mistake again. I think they will keep the light firmly on AoS. Other things like their shift to dedicated teams for specific projects and for things like Forgeworld AoS Team I think will help bolster that. No more should a game get forgotten because staff got shifted onto other projects. 

3) As long as GW markets and has a focus on variety of play mechanics and approaches they should be able to keep the game rolling along without breaking it to the point where newbies need to spend hundreds just to get into the game. Sure it might mean you have to spend more to get to tourney level; or to get up to that 3K army; but long as there are many modes and ways to play along the wya it should encourage people in that direction. Fantasy of old more forced them - esp since it often broke at smaller point values for some armies, partly because of how it was based around movement trays and the like. So you could very easily have small games where its all focused on perhaps one or two trays only and a hero. 

[stato]

34 minutes ago, Kramer said:

They did with Kharadron Overlord Thunderers... grumble grumble grumble  

The discussion over the last 2 pages about what you cant do in a FAQ all happened to the KO, but they wont acknowledge us.

[King Taloren]

19 minutes ago, stato said:

The discussion over the last 2 pages about what you cant do in a FAQ all happened to the KO, but they wont acknowledge us.

Sorry what are KO? I’ve never heard of this faction before. 🤣

[HollowHills]

All the KO players on here are correctly pointing out that the faq changes to their army were pretty severe and I think that's why GW are being more reserved with rules changes. Even doppelganger cloak wasn't nerfed until the second faq for sorcery. 

I think GW also have to look at how they are going to adjust points going forward. Unfortunately, thus far point changes in aos have often knocked top armies down into irrelevance rather than balancing them. Bonesplitters were great when kunnin ruk existed, now they are basically a dead faction. An faq to stonehorns has pushed BCR into oblivion and two handbooks of point increases to tzeentch has laid them low. 

 

[Clanan]

How much time is required between finishing a rulebook and seeing it printed? I wonder if the FAQ was light because GHB2019 is nearly finished. Logistically, it would be make sense to stuff the big things in the GHB if it's written around the same time-frame.

[stato]

29 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

All the KO players on here are correctly pointing out that the faq changes to their army were pretty severe and I think that's why GW are being more reserved with rules changes. Even doppelganger cloak wasn't nerfed until the second faq for sorcery. 

I think GW also have to look at how they are going to adjust points going forward. Unfortunately, thus far point changes in aos have often knocked top armies down into irrelevance rather than balancing them. Bonesplitters were great when kunnin ruk existed, now they are basically a dead faction. An faq to stonehorns has pushed BCR into oblivion and two handbooks of point increases to tzeentch has laid them low. 

 

The first points increases for KO did nothing other than cement the one list that was top.  The cumulative FAQ changes killed them (both the problem netlist and also any moderately ok variant options), subsequent points drops mean you can build fun lists again but typically two synergies are used if you want a chance (khemist and Mhornar). 

They were nerfed because people complained shooting was too strong and prevented opponent 'involvement/interaction' in the game. Now we have armies which cant be attacked or break turn sequence, leaders which never die, artefects with make heros almost invulnerable, etc.

Whats especially sad is pre-FAQ KO would probably be quite balanced in AoS2 with the mission focus on survivable hero, magic and large units, none of which KO can do well.

[Malakree]

I don't get why they didn't just make the Ethereal Amulet not let you reroll your save. It's an easy Errata which shuts down the most obnoxious versions of the artefact while still maintaining it's usefulness for everything else.

[Black Blade]

On 12/17/2018 at 8:57 AM, JPjr said:

I know this particular artefact gets called out a lot (even just in that recent thread about realm spells/artefacts) so worth highlighting...

That is frustrating, it was one of the most interesting artifacts and did not require being nerfed into oblivion. It's called strategy and tactics people, work around it. Mortal wounds and shooting are what kill characters as is anyway so who complained about this?

[Euphanism]

8 hours ago, Ninelives said:

I just checked again, looks like you're talking about Chaos Siege Gargant (Forgeworld OOP ? ) not the normal Chaos Gargant. 

 

Oooooohhhhhhh...yes. That was it.

I was way too willing to accept GW did something silly than accept my poor reading comprehension!

[Skreech Verminking]

11 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

That is frustrating, it was one of the most interesting artifacts and did not require being nerfed into oblivion. It's called strategy and tactics people, work around it. Mortal wounds and shooting are what kill characters as is anyway so who complained about this?

It is called run into the most heaviest hitter in the Enemy Armie (big khorne Dragon for 1200p) and let it have the change to stay in combat doing nothing  for the rest of the game.

sounds very Strategic

 

[PJetski]

9 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

It is called run into the most heaviest hitter in the Enemy Armie (big khorne Dragon for 1200p) and let it have the change to stay in combat doing nothing  for the rest of the game.

sounds very Strategic

 

What's stopping them from retreating? Or screening? Or shooting? Or using spells?

There's a lot of strategy involved in countering the Doppelganger Cloak.

[Lemon Knuckles]

3 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

It is called run into the most heaviest hitter in the Enemy Armie (big khorne Dragon for 1200p) and let it have the change to  stick their for the rest of the game.

sounds very Strategic

 

Those big Khorne dragons aren't exactly tearing up the tourney scene though, are they?  I don't mean this as a snark at all, I mean it to draw attention to the larger issue.

All of these discussions get quite problematic because 1) people mean different things when they talk about "balance", and 2) who exactly is the target audience that GW is trying to balance for?  

[Skreech Verminking]

16 minutes ago, PJetski said:

What's stopping them from retreating? Or screening? Or shooting? Or using spells?

There's a lot of strategy involved in countering the Doppelganger Cloak.

Ah right, forgot that shooting and magic was a big factor in the Game.

never mind my comment.

[Vextol]

Quick question: didn't they do this last time?  Like right before the "actual" FAQ they made a bunch of little changes to the FAQs?  Is there a chance this isn't really the big FAQ at all?

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

What's stopping them from retreating? Or screening? Or shooting? Or using spells?

There's a lot of strategy involved in countering the Doppelganger Cloak.

There's a lot of strategy, for specific armies and lists. Doppelganger took a massive ****** all over the weaker armies while the stronger ones either didn't care or actually gained an advantage from it.

It was a stupid artefact which was fast becoming mandatory for a huge amount of armies. Alongside the Ethereal Amulet they made up the majority of artefacts for competitive lists. When you have access to 50+ artefacts and 2 of them are the majority of options then you have a problem.

[King Taloren]

13 minutes ago, Malakree said:

There's a lot of strategy, for specific armies and lists. Doppelganger took a massive ****** all over the weaker armies while the stronger ones either didn't care or actually gained an advantage from it.

It actually has some of the easier counterplay if you strategize properly. Outnumbering the cloak with units that can attack him to ensure you outactivate him. Even just a one on one fight wrecks them badly if you get something durable in its face. The cloaks purpose is to negate having your glass cannon bruiser get knocked down a tier or two or worse flat out wiped off the board by combat before he gets to fight and then adds survivability for the price that he Needs to be the last unit to activate in that combat. Making sure that he can’t be last completely wrecks him cause unless he can squash the unit by himself he is going to be eating potentially enough wounds to make him greatly less effective or even useless the rest of the game.

 

Etheral amulet has a similar price that for unrendabale save it can’t be changed under any circumstances so that 3+ is the best it’ll ever be he cannot benefit from cover. It’s hard to deal with but mortal wounds and just plain old Dakka will topple him unless you play again a guy with god tier luck 

[Sev]

Should we expect a Khorne FAQ when Wrath and Rapture will be out?

[Malakree]

3 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

It actually has some of the easier counterplay if you strategize properly. Outnumbering the cloak with units that can attack him to ensure you outactivate him. Even just a one on one fight wrecks them badly if you get something durable in its face. The cloaks purpose is to negate having your glass cannon bruiser get knocked down a tier or two or worse flat out wiped off the board by combat before he gets to fight and then adds survivability for the price that he Needs to be the last unit to activate in that combat. Making sure that he can’t be last completely wrecks him cause unless he can squash the unit by himself he is going to be eating potentially enough wounds to make him greatly less effective or even useless the rest of the game.

I understand the different counterplay options. What I'm saying is that the older armies, which tend to be weaker, are often more limited in the availability of those options.

While the newer armies which are dominating are those which have access to all the different possibilities. LoN/DoK/Stormcast/IDK have all the tools they need to get round the problem. The issue is it's punishing armies which are already limited in options by providing a hard counter to the options they do have.

[Vextol]

27 minutes ago, Malakree said:

It was a stupid artefact which was fast becoming mandatory for a huge amount of armies. Alongside the Ethereal Amulet they made up the majority of artefacts for competitive lists. When you have access to 50+ artefacts and 2 of them are the majority of options then you have a problem.

If GW keeps doing what they do, there will always be those 2 artifacts.  Always.  The way to fix it is not to continually remove them, but add more and more and more different interesting ones.  +1 to hit in the combat phase?  Boooooo.  +1 to hit and +1 to wound ALL the time?  Yay!

D3 wounds once per battle on a roll of 5+ if the bearer is being charged in the fourth round?  Yeah...surprise that one isn't being taken.  D6 mortal wounds at 18 inches once per game?  Maybe!  

Creativity fixes unbalance.  Removing creativity makes it worse.

[Enoby]

15 minutes ago, Sev said:

Should we expect a Khorne FAQ when Wrath and Rapture will be out?

From what I have heard, the Khorne allegiance abilities are in the box, and so if any of them have been changed then you'll see it there.

[HammerOfSigmar]

13 minutes ago, Sev said:

Should we expect a Khorne FAQ when Wrath and Rapture will be out?

I think there is already some modification on the warscroll when the Wrath and Rapture announced. The bloodletter can only cause mortal wound for an unmodified hit roll of 6. The captain of the flesh hound has a "powerful" roar that can shoot enemy within 8"(khorne likes this number) with 1a 2+to hit 4+to wound no rend 1 damage. The bloodletter skullcrusher now have a 2+ to cause d3/d6 mortal wound after charging.  

[Fulkes]

I'm a little saddened they didn't just go "sure" on the whole Black Coach thing. If you're running Legion of Nagash and want to run a Black Coach you either need to own one from yonks ago, need to hunt one down from the used model market or ally one in from the Nighthaunt (which is silly unless your running a ghost heavy LoN army). It just feels like a shame to me honestly.

I feel no loss over the Doppelgänger Cloak though. It was an auto-include to the point where having two models with one on getting stuck in combat unable to fight each other (as long as no one pushes another unit into there to break the stalemate) was a little too common for a while now. It might have gone too far the other way but it's still better to see it adjusted down because it was too strong to not take in most armies.

Not that it matters to me since I'm working on Shyish based Skaven right now (when my motivation returns (I blame work for burning me out more than the painting honestly), I've been taking a break and playing Legend of Dragoon instead of painting like the bum I am).

[Malakree]

6 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Creativity fixes unbalance.  Removing creativity makes it worse.

Within reason. Personally I'm more sad that they nerfed the Lens of Refraction, it added a tool which my army desperately needed against something which was and still is very much in vogue. The counterplay to the LoR was far easier and more widely available but it was still nerfed.

Doppelganger Cloak still has the same potential it did before, it's just added the extra layer of skill in it's use. It's gone from "Mandatory" to "Good if used well" which is where most of the artefacts need to be, it's now on the same level as things like the Quicksilver Potion, Guardians Coronet or Wristbands of Illusion. Honestly the level of effect it has should always be limited to once per game.

That said I feel like the Cloak should have been changed to "cannot be chosen as the target of melee attacks in that combat phase" since it's now one combat phase only.