Problem with some Units

[ACBelMutie]

Hello. I'm quit new in this game, so I'm still testing some units with bad results. Horde units are pretty solid, but when I use a big unit like Vhordrai or Manfred, it's a big waste of points. Finally I go back to horde units again.

I have tested Arkahn and I think it's very interesting and nice to rule with spells but when I want to use another mortarch, I have problems using them.  Apart from the heroes, do you think black knights or blood knights are worthy? Hexwraiths are better in sustain and can deal mortal wounds, that's nice in my opinion.

The last question I had was about Grave Guard. A block of 40 skeletons is better than a block of 20 GG, so why should I choose the GG? Because they aren't hero dependent?

Greetings

[Honk]

2 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

why should I choose the GG?

Fluff reasons...

sadly points per hp or points per damage output our hordes outperform our heroes. Skellis with necromancer for 390 are just so much better than whoever rides along. Now, that we got some spooky ghosts to fly those 30 chainrasps are a fast resilient horde, disgusting...the necro has to run to keep up.

dire wolves the same, dirt cheap, fast and resilient. Best objective grabbers and flankers ever.

and all of them regenerate through gravesites and the invocation.

a vampirelord high and mighty on his dragon might look scary, but has only 47,6% of the damage output (always make up exact numbers) of a .40 skelli block. Somebody did the math somewhere, and it was crazy how bad he was pointwise. Same goes for „hit points“ .40 block has 40, regenerating 2-4d3 each round 4-8 so roughly 6... his chalice gives the lord a one time d6 (3-4) and if he puts his life in danger (melee) he might get 2 for killing a model, if he survives the counterattacks...

so sadly, the most efficient lists are boring hordes, till your opponent brings horde killers. The rest of the model line is there for fluff and style reasons (totally exaggerated but with a hint of truth)

 

big monsters (dragon lord, Mannfred) are usually used to divert your opponents attention from your main force or to stall his advance, before your slow units got into place (objectives). Using buffing heroes like neferata, coven throne or Arkhan without them getting killed is just pretty tricky. Where to put them and how to play them, in what army is just depending on all the other things.

[themortalgod]

4 hours ago, Honk said:

Fluff reasons...

sadly points per hp or points per damage output our hordes outperform our heroes. Skellis with necromancer for 390 are just so much better than whoever rides along. Now, that we got some spooky ghosts to fly those 30 chainrasps are a fast resilient horde, disgusting...the necro has to run to keep up.

dire wolves the same, dirt cheap, fast and resilient. Best objective grabbers and flankers ever.

and all of them regenerate through gravesites and the invocation.

a vampirelord high and mighty on his dragon might look scary, but has only 47,6% of the damage output (always make up exact numbers) of a .40 skelli block. Somebody did the math somewhere, and it was crazy how bad he was pointwise. Same goes for „hit points“ .40 block has 40, regenerating 2-4d3 each round 4-8 so roughly 6... his chalice gives the lord a one time d6 (3-4) and if he puts his life in danger (melee) he might get 2 for killing a model, if he survives the counterattacks...

so sadly, the most efficient lists are boring hordes, till your opponent brings horde killers. The rest of the model line is there for fluff and style reasons (totally exaggerated but with a hint of truth)

 

big monsters (dragon lord, Mannfred) are usually used to divert your opponents attention from your main force or to stall his advance, before your slow units got into place (objectives). Using buffing heroes like neferata, coven throne or Arkhan without them getting killed is just pretty tricky. Where to put them and how to play them, in what army is just depending on all the other things.

This is actually only true in a theoretical void. Behemoth Heroes often provide an incredibly potent level of offensive force in a very focused area. If I charge in with a VLoZD I can count on swinging with 100% of his combat force. It is very rare that a blob of 40 skeletons can say the same. In fact, in most cases, you won't even be swinging with half of the unit. On top of that, the VLoZD is actually tougher if you kit him out correctly. For example, with mystic shield and ethereal amulet, the VLoZD takes a ridiculous amount of offensive firepower to fell compared to how fast skeletons crumble.

There is also the factor of mobility, just like how skeletons never are really able to bring to bear their full combat effectiveness, they are also wretchedly slow. They are a slow moving hammer that melts quickly while the VLoZD is a fast moving hammer that can withstand heavy onslaught. 

Not to say skeletons are bad or anything, they are awesome, but to try to compare 1:1 pts value to a VLoZD is not a good comparison. They have completely different roles to fill. VLoZDs are seeing plenty of top-tier play. They are a very strong unit.

Back to OP. Personally, I feel Black Knights are far superior to hexwraiths. Hexwraiths don't actually have much of a role. They don't hit very hard and their MWs are negligible. (in a more abstract sense, they are tougher spider riders at a much higher pts cost)  Imo they are overpriced and aren't so much faster than Reapers that it is worth taking them over Reapers. In comparison, Black Knights also hit like wet noodles (even more so) but they fill a battlefield role that is actually unique, which is bringing the -1 Bravery aura on a fast moving unit that is cheap.  When properly taken advantage of that can really stack up value over the course of game. Especially if you are running things like a Mortis Engine or Banshees but even watching extra models flee can quickly show its value. Black Knights drive my Ironjawz opponents insane, for example, as they are constantly causing an extra, expensive, 3 wound Brute to run off.

Blood Knights, however, are utter garbage outside of legion of blood and are still pretty bad inside it. They can hit like a truck on the charge but if they are denied said charge they are pretty useless.

[Honk]

2 hours ago, themortalgod said:

They are a slow moving hammer that melts quickly while the VLoZD is a fast moving hammer that can withstand heavy onslaught. 

When playing with realm artifacts, he does tend to survive significantly longer   😄 if you are able to place the mini, the VloZd or Prince V have a lot of focused damage potential in them.

talking about black knights, look through the threads for „deathmarch“ there was a high placing list from ianob, basing on a high buffed 15 strong black knight charge... he talked about the drawbacks, but with the right positioning it seems to be a strong option. You have to have the skillz to use such a list effectively though... I don’t 

on the other side you asked about grave guards... I have watched miniwargaming batreps where they really go to town and hack things to pieces. In a 30 big unit of course, to withstand the upfront damage. Their save is garbage, so always take the big sword and then the 3+\3+ is really effective. 

2 hours ago, themortalgod said:

This is actually only true in a theoretical void.

Such is the limitation of the mathhammer... great insights which are useless 🤪👍

In the End, a lot of value is derived from the units by using them right, knowing their capabilities and effectively using them, not throwing them into their death.

Blood knight charge can be devastating, but if the get stuck in 30 hardboyz they won’t see the next round. Same goes for vargheist, which are excellent support hero hunters, but otherwise not really useful.

I like fielding morghast, either in grand host or night lists. They do quite some damage and in turn can take a beating too. But they also need to be supported and 12hp with 4+ save is not really that much.

on fielding mortarchs, arkhan is the obvious easy choice, great back line caster, good overall support for all your other casters and pretty cheap. Neferata has a pretty nice command ability and a pretty good spell. But she needs to be positioned more aggressively if her abilities are to have an effect. That puts her in quite the dangerous spot with her 11hp and 4+ save. A volley from a unit of kurnoth and she might be done for... same goes for manni, even more so since he is a melee guy. They bring some pretty good buffs to the table, but are far to squishy to withstand even mild opponents attention. Can’t give them artifacts sooo... sad face.

 

After all that rambling, the truth is: if you’re strategy is good and your tactical finess on point you‘ll get away with fielding almost anything.

if you play like me, the easy obvious choice of hordes with supporting heros and one or two distraction carnifex units is far more forgiving...

[ACBelMutie]

Thanks for the advices. I made a test charging with 15 Black Knights against 30 Reapers (360 points Vs 360 points). I used the 4++ save and the 6++ save of the nighthaunts.

The results were:

h = hits
w = wounds
Attacks: knights / horses

Test 1: 19h /15h => 16w / 4w => 18 dead
Test 2: 21h / 15h => 13w / 5w =>9 dead
Test 3: 18h / 13h => 14w / 4w => 9 dead
Test 4: 23h / 9h => 16w / 4w => 17 dead
Test 5 21h / 13h => 17w / 5w => 15 dead
Test 6: 26h / 10h => 16w / 4w => 11 dead

After that I attacked with the reapers against the black Knights (6+ save because of the rend -1 and I used the 6++ save of the Death in the last column):

Test 1: 19h => 9w => 8 wounds => 8 wounds (4 dead)
Test 2: 33h => 19w => 16 wounds => 12 wounds (6 dead)
Test 3: 32h => 21w => 17 wounds => 13 wounds (6 dead and 1 wounded)
Test 4: 18h => 13w => 11 wounds => 6 wounds (3 dead)
Test 5: 23h => 15w => 13 wounds => 11 wounds (5 dead and 1 wounded)
Test 6: 31h => 19w => 17 wounds => 14 wounds (7 dead).

You need a good position to be able to charge and get the 2 damage and 3/3 to hit and wound. I didn't use the comand trait lord of Nagashizzar because it's very difficult to get that bonus when charging and getting 15 miniatures for combat.

About hexwraiths... do you think yo can run over a big unit of 30 reapers or 40 chainrasps? For example, the hexwraith unit is in combat and has 7 miniatures left. They retreat over the nighthaunts and thanks to the movement they can deal several mortal wounds. I don't know if you can retrear moving 2 inches ahead and then go back, is it legal?

Greetings

[Cursed]

6 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

 I don't know if you can retrear moving 2 inches ahead and then go back, is it legal?

yes it is!

 

you only have to move partially over the ennemy base for a hexwraith model to use his ability!

[Lemon Knuckles]

On 12/9/2018 at 4:27 PM, Honk said:

Same goes for „hit points“ .40 block has 40, regenerating 2-4d3 each round 4-8 so roughly 6... his chalice gives the lord a one time d6 (3-4) and if he puts his life in danger (melee) he might get 2 for killing a model, if he survives the counterattacks...

I know you were making a different kind of point, and I know the limitations of math etc., but I'll throw this out here anyway because it ties into other things I'm working on.

A 40 block of Skeletons actually has 33 "effective wounds" against no-rend attacks once you factor in saves and battelshock (meaning if you can hit a 40 skeleblob with 33 wounds before saves you will likely wipe the entire unit).  If you can hit them with 25 wounds of rend 1 damage you will likely wipe them.  

VLOZD has 42 "effective wounds" against no-rend attacks, and 28 against rend 1.  And that's not including any artefacts.

Of course if your dice hate you, results may vary.  And if you opponent doesn't try to bring overwhelming force to bear, and instead makes the mistake of trying to slowly chip away at your skeles, then the suckers will last forever.

[Honk]

Such is the madness of mathhammering.

theoretically theory and practice  should be the same but practically the aren’t...

(if that sorry try of a translation works)

 

And as all „general“ statements they should be considered, but might as well just be ignored if the specific situation arises.

🤪👍

[Lemon Knuckles]

I'm not quite as cynical as you, but there is value in the caveat nonetheless. 👌

[ACBelMutie]

Thanks for the advices guys! I'll try the Hexwraiths deeper.

Today I used dire wolves to shield (first time I use this tactic) my skeletons warriors against charges and it worked pretty well (Vs Idoneth). I'll probably test the Black Knights (I love these miniatures a lot!) in a few days, but I'm not sure if 30 Reapers are better than 15 Black Knights. They are more consistent and they have less drawbacks.

I have a question and I don't want to open a new post. Necromancers can redirect unsaved wounds, but how is it applied?

Example: Necromancer is general and has ossific diadem. The enemy get 10 hits with damage 2 against the Necromancer with Rend "-". I'd do:

1. Try to save the hits with the 6+ save of the Necromancer. Example: 1 saved, 9 in.
2. Try to avoid the damage with ossific diadem (6++) . Example: 2 damage avoided, 16 in.
3. Try to avoid the damage with the alligance hability (6++). Example: 2 damage avoided, 14 in.
4. I try to redirect the 14 unsaved wounds to a warrior skeletons unit (4+). I roll 14 dices and 7 goes for the skeleton unit.
5. The Necromancer is dead, but I can avoid the 7 wounds on the skeletons if there is another Death hero near the unit using Deathless Minions (6++).

Is it correct?

Greetings

Edited December 12, 2018 by ACBelMutie

[Honk]

11 minutes ago, ACBelMutie said:

Example: Necromancer is general and has ossific diadem. The enemy get 10 hits with damage 2 against the Necromancer with Rend "-". I'd do:

Sorry, a bit drunk but...

10 wounding hits against the necro can be diverted on a 4+ so statistically you try to redirect all to skellis getting 5 off your necro. 

Now this 5 hits can be saved by the skellis on a 5+ (6+ and +1 shield) saving maybe 2 resulting in 3 wounds, a total of 6damage.

deathless minions saves 1, and with luck the diadem saves another one for 4 kills on the skellis.

now 5 to the necromancer. 6+ Armor save saving maybe 1, 4 wounds dealing 8 damage. Diadem only works on deathrattle so only a 6+ deathless minion saving maybe 2... 6 damage and down he goes

[ACBelMutie]

Thanks a lot. The description is a bit confusing because I thought I could redirect not saved wounds. Thanks.

[Honk]

7 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

The description is a bit confusing

There was a tipsiness disclaimer...

thing with the necromancer and also the first cohort is, that nowadays the redirect comes first, before the attacked models save.

You don’t get to armor save , deathless , redirect , armor save, deathless anymore.

the flow is redirect, armor save, deathless, extra deathless for deathrattle (ossified diadem)

[Bademeister]

just my two cents to Grave Guards. I think they are one of the best options in Death. Wehn you choose the great Weapons, they got a +3/+3/-1/1 (or 2 Damage on 6s to Wound).

normaly i play a unit of 20 Models. Most of the time 10-15 of them swing their weapon in a fight. In a Grand Host of Nagahs list, i allways pick Ossific Diadem and Lord of Ngashizzar. If you pick a Vamipre Lords Blood Feast and the Necromancers Danse Macabre, you will hit with only 10 Graveguards 41+41 Hits. 4/9 (~44%) will wound, thats 36 Wounds! (+ all the 6s to Wound)

Even with no Buffs 10 of your Guards will do ~9 Wounds

[ACBelMutie]

On 12/13/2018 at 9:54 AM, Bademeister said:

just my two cents to Grave Guards. I think they are one of the best options in Death. Wehn you choose the great Weapons, they got a +3/+3/-1/1 (or 2 Damage on 6s to Wound).

normaly i play a unit of 20 Models. Most of the time 10-15 of them swing their weapon in a fight. In a Grand Host of Nagahs list, i allways pick Ossific Diadem and Lord of Ngashizzar. If you pick a Vamipre Lords Blood Feast and the Necromancers Danse Macabre, you will hit with only 10 Graveguards 41+41 Hits. 4/9 (~44%) will wound, thats 36 Wounds! (+ all the 6s to Wound)

Even with no Buffs 10 of your Guards will do ~9 Wounds

I usually play against armys with rend (-1 most) so I usually think 40 wounsds are better than 20 wounds with a save of 6+. Warrior Skeletons can make the GG rol for a cheaper price, so why should I use GG insteado of the WS?

Greetings

[Honk]

2 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

why should I use GG insteado of the WS

Tough question and the answer is : if you really want!!!

And 20-30 strong block of gg slices the world, while a .04 cal block goes nowhere...

[ACBelMutie]

21 hours ago, Honk said:

Tough question and the answer is : if you really want!!!

And 20-30 strong block of gg slices the world, while a .04 cal block goes nowhere...

I probably need to test them more. They are quite expensive and need Lord of Nagashizzar to be strong. I will try to use them in my next battle. I also want to test the black knights in a big group too, but I also think that 30 Reapers are probably easier to use than 30 black knights.

Greetings

[Honk]

5 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

but I also think that 30 Reapers are probably easier to use than 30 black knights.

Definitely. The knights need a buffed charge to wreck things. Also the idea of fielding 30 might pose some tricky positioning questions. Really unwieldy to get to the foe.

[ACBelMutie]

I have been making rolls for a while to compare Reapers and Black Knights (360 points):

Reapers

Vs Save 6+ (1 wound eache miniature)  => 4/3/-1/1 repeating to hit. 15 miniatures x2 attacks + the bell.

• 19/1 hits => 17/1 wounds => 21 dead (17 + 2 wounds bell and 2 mortals).
• 24/1 hits => 16/1 wounds => 20 dead
• 21/0 hits => 12/0 wounds => 12 dead
• 24/0 hits => 19/0 wounds => 19 dead
• 17/0 hits => 10/0 wounds => 10 dead

When you said the Black Knights could be very good when buffed, I wanted to test them against the Reapers for the 4++ save. The test:

Black Knights (buffed +1 attacks)

Vs Reapers (save 4+) => 15 miniatures x 3 attacks, 15 x2 attacks (horses) and charging. 3/3/-/2 and 4/5/-/1

• 33/14 hits => 18/6 wounds => 9/4 unsaved => 22 dead
• 30/17 hits => 24/4 wounds => 17/3 unsaved => 37 dead
• 29/19 hits => 20/8 wounds => 11/4 unsaved => 26 dead
• 22/13 hits => 16/5 wounds => 8/3 unsaved => 19 dead
• 28/18 hits => 19/7 wounds => 13/3 unsaved => 29 dead

I made 4 tests for GG and Skeletons that I'll post later (Vs save 6+, 5+, 4+ and 4+ repeating failed rolls).

Greetings

Edit:

Grave Guard

Test 1: Vs save 6+, 10 miniatures dealing 2 attacks at 3/3/-1/1.

• 12 hits => 8/2 (two dices were sixs) wounds => 12 dead.
• 13 hits => 6/2 wounds => 10 dead.
• 13 hits => 7/1 wounds => 9 dead.
• 13 hits => 8/2 wounds => 12 dead.
• 16 hits => 7/3 wounds => 13 dead.

Test 2: Vs save 5+:

• 17 hits => 5/4 wounds => 5/3 unsaved=> 13 dead.
• 15 hits => 7/2 wounds => 7/2 unsaved => 11 dead.
• 14 hits => 5/4 wounds => 4/3 unsaved => 10 dead.
• 14 hits => 3/4 wounds => 3/2 unsaved => 7 dead.
• 19 hits => 8/4 wounds => 6/3 unsaved => 12 dead.

Test 3: Vs save 4+:

• 16 hits => 7/5 wounds => 5/4 unsaved=> 13 dead.
• 15 hits => 6/3 wounds => 3/2 unsaved=> 7 dead.
• 17hits => 9/0 wounds => 7/0 unsaved=> 7 dead.
• 14hits => 6/2 wounds => 1/2 unsaved=> 5 dead.
• 14 hits => 5/4 wounds => 4/1 unsaved=> 6 dead.

Skeleton Warriors

Test 1: Vs save 6+, 20 miniatures 3 attacks at 4/4/-/1

• 22 hits => 11 wounds => 11 unsaved => 11 dead.
• 22 hits => 12 wounds => 11 unsaved => 11 dead.
• 31 hits => 20 wounds => 16 unsaved => 16 dead.
• 30 hits => 15 wounds => 13 unsaved => 13 dead.
• 30 hits => 18 wounds => 14 unsaved => 14 dead.

Test 2: Vs save 5+:

• 32 hits => 12 wounds => 9 unsaved => 9 dead.
• 26 hits => 12 wounds => 9 unsaved => 9 dead.
• 29 hits => 19 wounds => 12 unsaved => 12 dead.
• 34 hits => 15 wounds => 8 unsaved => 8 dead.
• 30 hits => 11 wounds => 5 unsaved => 5 dead.

Test 2: Vs save 4+:

• 25 hits => 14 wounds => 7 unsaved => 7 dead.
• 24 hits => 12 wounds => 6 unsaved => 6 dead.
• 23 hits => 10 wounds => 4 unsaved => 4 dead.
• 27 hits => 9 wounds => 7 unsaved => 7 dead.
• 34 hits => 13 wounds => 6 unsaved => 6 dead.

Edited December 16, 2018 by ACBelMutie

[Honk]

It is good to see the reliability of math-hammering. 

F.e. 20 skellis get 60 attacks, hitting 30 times and dealing 15 wounds, your rolls ranged from 22-34 hits and 9-20 wounds.

so it is also a great idea to appease the dice gods

[Lemon Knuckles]

The nature of variability is such that you always need to be a bit careful when drawing conclusions from limited samples.  I think I'll develop this point in detail at some point in my blog, but for now I'll throw out a couple of relevant things.

First, here's a quick view of just how much variability can skew results, and how much sample you actually need to start normalizing results.  Here's distribution of D6 rolls across 36, 72, 100, 1200, and 6000 rolls.

Second, there's a decent simulator HERE.  It doesn't have total functionality, but it does reflect a good output that captures the variability fo dice and the fickleness of the dice gods.

For example, here's the expected damage output of 15 Black Knights and Steeds on the charge buffed with an extra attack against a 4+ Save:

[ACBelMutie]

That expected damage is against 5+ save (Black Knights have no rend). The correct one should be this one:

Just a few more questions:

 Can Guardian of Souls heal Skeletons if he is part of GHoN? I think he can't because his spell says "Nighthaunt", but I'm not 100% sure about it.

On the other hand, I'll face against two nighthaunt players soon at 1250 points match. I'm not sure if I should go Sacrament or Grand Host of Nagash.  The magic of Sacrament could be usefull if I use any Endless Spells like Geminids of Uhl-Gysh against his hordes. However, GHoN is very resilient if I go with two groups of skeletons and has a good offense (Lord of Nagashizzar). I can use some nighthaunt units like reapers instead of Black Knight and deal a good amount of damage with a decent summoning. What do you think about it?

Greetings

[Honk]

On 12/17/2018 at 8:54 PM, ACBelMutie said:

I can use some nighthaunt units like reapers

Take chainrasp and show him how grind is played 🤣

No, guardian does only effect nighthaunt units, like you said.

high magic could be useful to deny him his healing spells... overwhelming dread will ruin their day (arkhan). Big hordes always sound nice, but the ghosts will be faster than your blocks and it’s a point objective game... morghast are wasted, but knights or wolves could bring some speed... sadly vargheist seem to be Soulblight,

but also grave guard could be a good option 3+\3+ reliable damage, buffed by lord of N, van hels ready... suck on this spooky ghosts and his unit regeneration will not be able to keep up with that amount of slice‘n‘dice

[ACBelMutie]

5 hours ago, Honk said:

but also grave guard could be a good option 3+\3+ reliable damage, buffed by lord of N, van hels ready... suck on this spooky ghosts and his unit regeneration will not be able to keep up with that amount of slice‘n‘dice

GG hit hard, but they need to hit first because they aren't too resilient. I know my enemies will go with 30 Reapers, so 6+/6+ save isn't enought. I need to shield them to attack first. I think I could use 5 Hexwraiths just to run over a big enemy unit trapped in combat. I can deal several mortal wounds and retreat behind my own units.

I need also to test the endless spells.

[Honk]

13 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

they need to hit first because they aren't too resilient.

On the other handside, they do not drop in performance like skellis... at 30+ 3attacks and after a mauling only 19 left for 1 attack. 

GG always slice twice and unless you want to bunker up against no rend (why would one do such a thing?!?) always carry the big sticks and 10 will still wreck faces !!!