How to deal with a Behemoth

[Tibus367]

I am new to Age of Sigmar here.  A couple friends and I attempted to get a Path to Glory campaign going which seemed pretty fun against armies with a similar structure to my own (I created a Deamons of Khorne army containing a Blood Throne, a unit of Bloodcrushers, Bloodletters, and a Skullmaster).  But once I started a battle with another new player who had a Serephon army that had a Saurus Oldblood on Carnasaur things seemed real out of balance.  I expected the battle to be a fair fight as we both had similar pitched battle point values and followed the rules in the Path to Glory rules.  I started with the initiative and moved toward and objective.  Then the Carnasaur charged in and ate my Bloodcrushers....all of them.  Rolled for initiative and my friend won.  So he ate my Skullmaster.  Half my army was gone before I ever got a chance to raise my sword.  He didn't even have to use any of his other units on the table.  After that I knew I didn't have the power to take down that Carnasaur so I just tried to get as many victory points as I could but the battle was already over.  We both agreed that the battle wasn't very fun that way.

Obviously my strategy for handling this monster is far off.  We played around with these models a few different ways but it pretty much always came out the same.  Half his army (Saurus Oldblood on Carnasaur) uses up all their attacks early in the combat phase and it is hard for what is left of my army to recover after that.  Nether one of us is interested in fighting a battle where the victory is already assured by one person.  How am I supposed to handle this monster?

 

 

[PlasticCraic]

There's a few things you can do in this scenario:

1) Khorne has probably the best anti-Behemoth unit in the game with Wrathmongers.  Use his own model against him!

2) Tie it up with Chaff.  You have cheap units like Blood Reavers that can bog it down and generate you Blood Tithes at the same time.  While you have your Slaughter Priests tucked in behind chucking Blood Boils at it.

3) Can I ask what points level you were playing at?  A Behemoth at a low points level game can definitely make things seem imbalanced, but it gets better as the game scales up.  You will be able to fit in more screening units and play the objectives game.

4) Bring one of your own.  Your Bloodthirsters are pretty killy for example.  

5) Skull Reapers with stacking +1s to Hit will mulch it.

[Waiyuren]

Was he rolling hot? I did some quick, dirty head-math and by my guesstimate he would only average about 8 damage if you failed all your saves... thats 2 crushers dead, with the other auto-passing battleshock (unless the roar got him)? He would've then been pinned if he couldn't wipe the unit, leaving your bloodletters free to take a serious chunk out of him. 

I feel like either there was a misplay with rules, or you got really unlucky. 🤔

[Tibus367]

10 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

There's a few things you can do in this scenario:

1) Khorne has probably the best anti-Behemoth unit in the game with Wrathmongers.  Use his own model against him!

2) Tie it up with Chaff.  You have cheap units like Blood Reavers that can bog it down and generate you Blood Tithes at the same time.  While you have your Slaughter Priests tucked in behind chucking Blood Boils at it.

3) Can I ask what points level you were playing at?  A Behemoth at a low points level game can definitely make things seem imbalanced, but it gets better as the game scales up.  You will be able to fit in more screening units and play the objectives game.

4) Bring one of your own.  Your Bloodthirsters are pretty killy for example.  

5) Skull Reapers with stacking +1s to Hit will mulch it.

I was hoping to keep to a Khorne deamon army without having to mix in mortals with them.  Would that be a impossible mistake?  We were playing a 500 point battle so I am sure that would make a difference, but that is the armies we have right now.  It is a little hard to just say we won't play until we invest a few hundred more dollars and time in assembly and painting with the hope that in the end it will balance out when the armies are bigger.  Getting a Bloodthirster is a possibility but my fear there is that the game will simply turn into a match between behemoths with little other strategy besides attempting to get the first attack, with the first attack almost always winning.

[Euphanism]

It really sounds like there was some misinterpretation of rules here that made the Carnesaur a lot better than he should be. Then again, at only 500 points one combat phase is going to pretty much determine the battle. You'd need to play at around 1000 points to have a game where the first turn swing didnt determine the whole match.

[Mayple]

Like @Euphanism said, and additionally, if the strongest available unit on either side attacks first, then whatever it hits is dead at 500 points. 

It becomes more of a positioning game then. Whoever gets the first big attack wins. Position more cleverly and you shouldn't lose as easily.

[Tibus367]

10 hours ago, Waiyuren said:

Was he rolling hot? I did some quick, dirty head-math and by my guesstimate he would only average about 8 damage if you failed all your saves... thats 2 crushers dead, with the other auto-passing battleshock (unless the roar got him)? He would've then been pinned if he couldn't wipe the unit, leaving your bloodletters free to take a serious chunk out of him. 

I feel like either there was a misplay with rules, or you got really unlucky. 🤔

A little quick math and I get over 14 wounds from this one monster per turn in the combat phase.  (2 2/3 from Sun Stone Spear, 1 7/9 from Forelimbs, 10 from massive jaws)  plus 1 in the shooting phase from Sun Bolt Gauntlet.  Plus he has Blood roar that has him roll in the battle shock phase against my roll so I loose units on a low or high roll of my battle shock.  So even if I survive all that, I still loose in the battle shock even on a good roll.

 

[Tibus367]

5 minutes ago, Mayple said:

Like @Euphanism said, and additionally, if the strongest available unit on either side attacks first, then whatever it hits is dead at 500 points. 

It becomes more of a positioning game then. Whoever gets the first big attack wins. Position more cleverly and you shouldn't lose as easily.

If we both had similar strength heroes on each side I would agree with you.  But if my strongest unit attacks first (Bloodthrone) and causes 4 wounds, it won't hurt him too much before he counter attacks and wipes out whatever I have left.

[Tibus367]

14 minutes ago, Euphanism said:

It really sounds like there was some misinterpretation of rules here that made the Carnesaur a lot better than he should be. Then again, at only 500 points one combat phase is going to pretty much determine the battle. You'd need to play at around 1000 points to have a game where the first turn swing didnt determine the whole match.

We were planning to start a Path to Glory campaign which does not use the points and is designed for smaller armies.  And the math still pretty much comes out the same.  The only strategy I found that has me winning at least sometimes is to ignore everything else and unload everything on the Carnasaur.  And if I attack first and rolled well and his other units don't get in the way too much, and I can get everybody in place quickly I might take it down and have a unit or two left over to fight the rest of his army.

[Mayple]

52 minutes ago, Tibus367 said:

If we both had similar strength heroes on each side I would agree with you.  But if my strongest unit attacks first (Bloodthrone) and causes 4 wounds, it won't hurt him too much before he counter attacks and wipes out whatever I have left.

Right. Well, that might be a result of subpar unit/point allotments. I can take a look in my path to glory book later and see if I can spot an easy way to add some more punch for ya For the time being, would you mind listing your own stuff, and the seraphon players stuff in this format;

(example seraphon)

- Carnosaur (old blood?)

-??

-??

(your stuff)

- Bloodthrone

- Skullmaster

-?? (how many bloodletters?)

-??  (how many bloodcrushers?)

 

 

Also, what battleplans have you guys been playing? Age of Sigmar is all about objectives, so if you're running at each-other your results will be skewed. 

[Tibus367]

23 minutes ago, Mayple said:

Right. Well, that might be a result of subpar unit/point allotments. I can take a look in my path to glory book later and see if I can spot an easy way to add some more punch for ya For the time being, would you mind listing your own stuff, and the seraphon players stuff in this format;

(example seraphon)

- Carnosaur (old blood?)

-??

-??

(your stuff)

- Bloodthrone

- Skullmaster

-?? (how many bloodletters?)

-??  (how many bloodcrushers?)

 

 

Also, what battleplans have you guys been playing? Age of Sigmar is all about objectives, so if you're running at each-other your results will be skewed. 

Seraphon:

-Saurus Oldblood on Carnasaur

-10 Saurus warrior

-10 skinks

Deamons of Khorne

- 1 Bloodthrone

-1 Skullmaster

-10 Bloodletters

-3 BloodCrushers

But honestly his warriors and skinks didn't cause the main problem.  The problem is that half my army died before anyone one in my army had a chance to attack.

At the time we played "Shifting Objectives" from the 2018 GH.

 

[Waiyuren]

2 hours ago, Tibus367 said:

A little quick math and I get over 14 wounds from this one monster per turn in the combat phase.  (2 2/3 from Sun Stone Spear, 1 7/9 from Forelimbs, 10 from massive jaws)  plus 1 in the shooting phase from Sun Bolt Gauntlet.  Plus he has Blood roar that has him roll in the battle shock phase against my roll so I loose units on a low or high roll of my battle shock.  So even if I survive all that, I still loose in the battle shock even on a good roll.

 

Ok?

Sunbolt gauntlet; averages 3 attacks, 2 hit, 1 wounds, 2 damage (daemon keyword).

Sunstone spear; 2 hits, 1-2 wounds, average 2-4 damage.

Clawed forelimbs, 2 hit, 1 wounds, 0-2 damage.

Massive jaws; 3 hit, 2 wound, 6 damage.

Yeah ok, 14 damage assuming you fail every single save, but on average you'll pass 1/3 so that rounds down to 9.

The clawed forelimbs only have a 50/50 shot of working, as does the roar, and as far as I'm aware the old-blood's attack boost can only affect one of his own attack profiles, not the carnosaur's (heroes and mounts rule?).

 

I don't know what to tell you really if you can't take more optimal choices (bloodcrushers are worse than skullcrushers), except be aware of his threat range and position to charge him rather than getting charged by him. Khorne is actually a finesse army believe it or not; you'll have to get good at positioning and buff-bubble overlapping to win with them... if you try to zerg, you'll just lose. 😑

[chord]

Grab a mighty lord of khorne...gives you a chance to install kill the carnosaur if you damage it.   do that once he'll keep his unit far away.

[Mayple]

@Tibus367 Alright, so going through everything, you really shouldn't be expecting much from your Bloodthrone. It is not a combat hero, and should be looking to support from the backline, not soloing enemy heroes/monsters. Limiting yourself to daemons alone puts you at a severe disadvantage, as far as small heroes go, as none of the bloodletter heroes are particularly good/threatening, and don't come with any command abilities. For this reason you should probably avoid the Skullmaster, since he brings nothing to the table that your other alternatives won't do better. A bloodthirster would be your best bet if you want a hero that can smash face, but isn't neccessarily mandatory with some tweaking to your setup. 

First off, bloodletters become better in units larger than 10 - receiving a +1 to hit in units of 20, which synergises with their mortal wounds output when they roll a 6+ to hit (triggering it on a 5+ instead) - Now, I'm not sure if Path to Glory allows you to increase the unit size (by taking 2x10 bloodletters and putting them in one unit, for example) - but the two of you might want to look into houseruling it so that you can if it turns out not to be the case, as that is going to limit your offensive capability a lot if you are only allowed to take them in units of 10.  

The Bloodcrushers are also a bit of a drawback for you, as they're listed in the elite slot, so they cost you two of your followers (20 potential bloodletters). The problem with this is that Bloodcrushers are there to compliment your main battleforce - except you don't actually have one, because your main battleforce consists of a single block of 10 bloodletters which will crumble against even the weakest of blows. 

So the problem is not that the Carnosaur hits too hard. It is that you don't have any staying power whatsoever - The Carnosaur just made it more obvious.

So in an effort to fix that problem, something like this might do the trick;

(510 points value)
- Bloodthrone

- 10 Bloodletters

- 10 Bloodletters

- Skullcannon

OR

(600 points value)

- Bloodthrone

- 10 Bloodletters

- 10 Bloodletters

- 10 Bloodletters

- 10 Bloodletters

(Alternatively 2x20, or even 1x40 bloodletters if the conclusion is reached that you can stack them up like that in Path to Glory)

Once your warbands starts growing, you can bring in the Bloodcrushers to give your army some added mobility and flanking power, which is their main purpose. 

Your original list was valued at 490 points, but daemons are pointed with summoning in mind, so that point value does not reflect accurately when compared to a similar value of non-summonable units (In this case, the Carnosaur itself can not be summoned) - The Seraphon player's list is 480 points.  Mind that he's supposed to have 20 skinks, not 10. 

As a final note; Age of Sigmar is a game meant for 1000 to 2000 points - So it will absolutely feel wonky and unbalanced when you're working around the minimal values. This is why Path to Glory is mostly a narrative thing, as you have to sort of handwave the very clear feeling of unbalance  Keep that in mind, and focus on creating cool stories ,and you'll be good.

[Tibus367]

That was very helpful.  A little disappointing perhaps, but helpful none the less.  The Path to Glory rules seem to indicate that you can't combine units.  "Your followers need to be organised into units.  The follower table  tells you how many models the unit has.  Follower units cannot include additional models..."  So that is disappointing too.  

I like the idea of a Khorne army but I am not a fan of how a lot of the models look, except for the daemons.  Based on the fact that there is a all daemon start collecting box, and that warbands are split between daemons and bloodbound, I figured that a daemon army was a valid way to put together an army.  Based on what I am reading, I am wondering if that was a mistake on my part.

We did play around a little with adding another unit of bloodletters instead of something else.    Attacking the Carnasaur with 20 bloodletters,  a lot of bloodletters died very quickly and then more died from battleshock.  We didn't bother continuing that experiment.

As I understand it, there is a bonus to hit with bloodletters if the unit as 20 models.  So as soon as I loose a single model I loose that bonus.  That is unless I start with 30 or more models in the unit.

[amysrevenge]

The most important part of Path to Glory is to modify the rules (in collaboration with your opponent) to make it more fun for you both.

[Captain Marius]

Ive found Path to Glory fun, but you certainly cant count on it being balanced, even with points, as, as mentioned, something as powerful as an old blood on carnosaur will tend to dominate. Id suggest your opponent maybe try him as a scar veteran on carnosaur in these smaller games, then promote him when you each have a few more units and veteran abilities. Also, try the narrative scenarios instead of matched play ones, as they can offer different challenges to attackers and defenders that can balance out some of the unbalance inherent in the matched play points system! 

[PlasticCraic]

Yep, Path to Glory is wildly imbalanced, but I would not let that put you off building up to 1000 point battles and beyond.  That's where the game really starts to take shape in my opinion.  1200 has its own feel too, and there's nothing quite like 2000 point AOS.  

If you're just playing against one opponent and building up together, you'll probably get into an arms race where you take counters to each other's armies all the way up to 2000 points.  And it'll be a great journey, you'll both have your highs and lows, and you'll come out the other end battle-hardened and ready to take on the world.  Plus you have this great forum to help 

I love @chord's Mighty Lord suggestion.  Also to reiterate, the first time you put Wrathmongers into him he will not forget that in a hurry.

Khorne is generally stronger when you open up Daemons and Mortals combined, and that does fit narratively too.  My mate has an all-Daemon build that he runs if he's trying to handicap himself (for example to give my Gutbusters a sporting chance).  If I'm bringing something more competitive he'll bring a stronger build, which invariably means a combination of Mortals and Daemons.

Honestly, my best advice would be skip PTG and jump straight to 1000 point games.  There are heaps of good Khorne units kicking around on eBay because of their presence in starter sets, which might help get you there quicker.  I really don't think you'll be throwing good money after bad - it'll open up the game to you and I think you'll enjoy it a lot more.

I'd suggest getting some Heroes (Bloodsecrator, Mighty Lord, Bloodstoker, Slaugher Priest) and some objective grabbing / Blood Tithe generating goobers (Blood Reavers) on eBay.  And maybe get a couple of new kits (Wrath Mongers and Skull Reapers, or a Bloodthirster) for Christmas.  You'll be in good shape to start playing proper games then, and it shouldn't cost the earth.

[Tibus367]

Y'all have me considering adding in at least some mortal units.  Am I reading Wrathmongers right?  If he kills one of 'em with his carnasaur I get temporary control of it to kill his own  army?  Would that apply to both his melee and ranged attacks?  I imagine that does not extend to moving his carnasaur toward any other units though.

Most likely sending in the Mighty Lord would get him killed (two out of three times there is no reality split and the carnasaur would eat him right after).  But still that would put the fear of Khorne into him.

[chord]

3 hours ago, Tibus367 said:

Y'all have me considering adding in at least some mortal units.  Am I reading Wrathmongers right?  If he kills one of 'em with his carnasaur I get temporary control of it to kill his own  army?  Would that apply to both his melee and ranged attacks?  I imagine that does not extend to moving his carnasaur toward any other units though.

Most likely sending in the Mighty Lord would get him killed (two out of three times there is no reality split and the carnasaur would eat him right after).  But still that would put the fear of Khorne into him.

You can always take the Mighty Lord of Khorne as Korghos Khul (if points and ptg allow named characters)  same model, but you get to pile in and attack during hero phase as well. That's double the chance of pulling off the reality splitting axe.   Sure the axe is only on a 5+ but when it goes off against a large model its great to see your opponent's face.

[Tibus367]

This is getting frustrating.  Seems to have a good Khorne army I need to mix in some mortal units to buff them.  Much of the buffs they have work just as good or better with other mortal units.  And for every daemon unit there seems to be a mortal one that is just as good or better for the same price.  So what the heck did I buy all these daemons for?  What do I get with them that I couldn't have gotten better with a Bloodbound starter set?  

So i need at least a Bloodsecretor, which comes with a Lord of Khorne, which has a nice command ability that affects mortal units.  Except that I have daemons.  So I could have done something similar with Bloodreavers buffed by the Bloodsecretor and gotten more help from my Lord of Knorne.  Then Khorne has all these other nice mortal units that do not buff or and are not buffed by my daemons.  I see lots of synergy between the mortal Khorne followers but that synergy seems limited by mixing in daemons instead of just using mortals.

I just wanted to play an cool evil looking army of demons from hell swarming over the mortal realms, spreading blood and carnage across the land.  Instead the demons arrived from hell only to have some slaughterpriest shrug and say "It's alright guys.  We got this."

[PlasticCraic]

Yeah some of the Daemon units are badass though.  The Bloodletters are amazing - they are priced as chaff, fulfill a Battleline slot, but are incredibly hard hitting.  A Bloodsecrator will buff them just as much as it buffs Mortal Khorne units - when it rips a hole in reality for Khorne's wrath to flow through, the Daemons get revved up too!

You will laugh at his bravery debuffs once you have the Portal down.  Battleshock will be a thing of the past.  

With the Wrathmongers, you take control of the Carnosaur and attack immediately - it is the combat phase, so no shooting unfortunately, and you do not get to pile in first (i.e. you can't move).  But it's still excellent - note that the model can attack itself (and is automatically in range of itself), and gets extra attacks for being near the remaining Wrathies too! 

Think of your cavalry as a mobile, durable screen rather than a damage dealer (unless you run Brass Stampede, in which case they are both). 

Even if you end up going Mortal-heavy, you will always want your Daemons because they are summonable.  It's very thematic that those are the units you get from your Blood Tithe summoning table.  Your Daemons are not a waste - they are still very useful.  But they are part of the army, not all of it.  You summon Daemons to turn the tide of battle in your favour - either through their combat output, or by swamping an objective out of the blue.

[Yoshiya]

4 hours ago, Tibus367 said:

This is getting frustrating.  Seems to have a good Khorne army I need to mix in some mortal units to buff them.  Much of the buffs they have work just as good or better with other mortal units.  And for every daemon unit there seems to be a mortal one that is just as good or better for the same price.  So what the heck did I buy all these daemons for?  What do I get with them that I couldn't have gotten better with a Bloodbound starter set?  

So i need at least a Bloodsecretor, which comes with a Lord of Khorne, which has a nice command ability that affects mortal units.  Except that I have daemons.  So I could have done something similar with Bloodreavers buffed by the Bloodsecretor and gotten more help from my Lord of Knorne.  Then Khorne has all these other nice mortal units that do not buff or and are not buffed by my daemons.  I see lots of synergy between the mortal Khorne followers but that synergy seems limited by mixing in daemons instead of just using mortals.

I just wanted to play an cool evil looking army of demons from hell swarming over the mortal realms, spreading blood and carnage across the land.  Instead the demons arrived from hell only to have some slaughterpriest shrug and say "It's alright guys.  We got this."

It's important to remember that the people in this thread are focusing mainly on your question, ie. how to deal with the Carnosaur.

Nothing is stopping you from going all daemons and indeed two people in my store do to good effect. You will find the army somewhat limited however as you're effectively playing with half the toolbox (it's important to remember that even if things are the same point costs, theyre normally designed in the context of being supported by all the available models in the army, not only half).

If that's something you're fine with then go ahead and build your all daemon army, if not, then take the advice of the people here.

If you want to stick to daemons, as others have mentioned your best bet is to either increase the size of your Bloodletter units or to take a Bloodthirster of your own. You could also take a Blood Cannon to wound it before it reaches your lines though I've found them to be very all or nothing in my games against them.

I hope this helps, it's important to try and remember not to get frustrated with this game. It's unfortunately somewhat unbalanced at low point games so I'd advise rather than focusing on the games to focus on the narrative. If you really find yourself struggling against his Carnosaur maybe maybe a game out of it? He could be a legendary slayer of daemons with a reputation that makes even daemons thing twice. Khorne demands his skull though and has sent a wave of daemons to take him down through a corrupted realmgate.

The objective for you could be to kill the Carnosaur with reinforcements coming out of a piece of terrain/board edge on a 4+ after being killed. His goal would be to survive 5 turns/close the gate to stop reinforcements.

[Tibus367]

I realize that this conversation for me has evolved far from the original question.  I probably should start a different thread about it.  After discussing it here and doing more reading online it seems that a deamon army, as I originally envisioned, is going to be a pretty rough go.  I'll need to mix enough mortals, that for for the cash I am spending, I could start a whole different army.  Many of the demons I bought will be on the sidelines to make room for the bloodbound I need to remain competitive.  And the demons I keep on the table could have been just a well or better served by a similar mortal unit.  Bloodletters have their uses but I will have to buy even more of them to see them shine.  Bloodthirsters are still good but I haven't gotten one yet and could use the cash to start a whole different army.  Every time I field my Bloodcrushers I'll be wondering if Skullcrushers would have meshed better with all these mortals.

At first I assumed that the pitched battle points would provide a way to make sure both sides were equally balanced and if I followed those rules I would be competitive against any other army that did the same, building whatever army had the most attractive looking models.  That turns out not to be the case, especially at lower point levels, but also at higher point totals as well.

I am seriously considering abandoning Khorne and trying a different army, since I am going to have to shell out more money either way to be happy with what I have on the field.

Don't take any of my frustration personally guys.  You all have been a great in helping me understand all this.  

[Azamar]

If you wanted to stick with daemons, what about converting a blood secretor, perhaps from a herald. That would keep with your theme but still allow you to include the lynchpin mortal character that khorne armies rely on (and saves you having to start getting other characters/units you didn’t want to). 

 blood letters are underwhelming in units of 10 so they’ll never shine in path to glory. But in large blocks they’re lethal, and easily buffed by other khorne units. Last time I faced bloodletters I lost a hydra to them in a single round of combat, so your monster woes should hopefully diminish as your army gets larger.