Scar Veteran Exploding Hits doesn't obey rule of one?

[The_Yellow_Sign]

In the Australian Masters' tournament stream, Chris Tot said that the Scar Veteran on Carnosaur's exploding hit's on 6+ (due to command ability) doesn't obey the rule of one, so that the generated attacks can generate more attacks. Can someone explain why?

[JackStreicher]

7 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

 

The 6+ proc lasts until your next hero phase, and the additional attacks are rolled before your next hero phase, so the buff still applies.

Yep and no one ever asked about that so why do you bring it up to answer his question?

 

about the rest: you are plainly wrong (have a look at the image Sir)

this rule also applies to the Scar Vet though you can stack it.

 

 

 

[heywoah_twitch]

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

The new FAQ has changed this so that warscrolls only overrule core rules that appear before the battleplans, warscrolls and allegiance abilities.  So this means no more getting extra hits from extra hits.  At least they took the time to clarify the issue, which is good, whichever side of the fence one was on.

The only side of the fence I'm on is what the rules say - so I'm thrilled about the clarification!

[Aelfric]

On 12/2/2018 at 1:31 AM, heywoah_twitch said:

The Core Rules last until the end of the Allegiance Abilities heading. They pasted an example battleplan page after the Battleplans heading and note this in the contents, but continue on into warscrolls, battalions, allegiance abilities. See also Core Rules pdf.

The new FAQ has changed this so that warscrolls only overrule core rules that appear before the battleplans, warscrolls and allegiance abilities.  So this means no more getting extra hits from extra hits.  At least they took the time to clarify the issue, which is good, whichever side of the fence one was on.

[Stroke]

Abilities: Most warscroll include one or more abilities that can be used by the warscroll's models during a game of warhammer age of sigmar. Abilities take precedence over the core rules ... ... ... ... Lastly any extra attacks hit rolls or wound rolls gained by the use of an ability cannot themselves generate extra..... not sure why there's contention here.

Seems like a few people who don't understand how lastly is used. The exceptions are things like fly/ethereal/retreat and charge/run and charge/run and shoot/mortal wound saves/ extra attacks from 6+ to hit (only on the first 6+ to hit though)etc.

Extra attacks from extra attacks is specifically pointed out. If you don't think this applies to extra attacks generating extra attacks after reading the abilities section, YOU are confused or more likely being willfully obtuse.

[EMMachine]

2 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

I know that the Australian Masters TO ruled it this way, but are there any other examples of TO's agreeing with this ruling? Seems like the intent of the clause about extra attacks in the core rules is intended to prohibit this sort of thing unless the war scroll explicitly allows it (like the Ripperdactyl scroll).  

Ripperdactyls aren't a case anymore, after the rule was changed with the last errata.

Quote

Page 129 – Ripperdactyl Riders, Voracious Appetite
Change the rules text to:
‘If the hit roll for an attack made with a Ripperdactyl’s
Vicious Beak scores a hit, that attack inflicts D3 hits on
the target instead of 1. Make a wound and save roll for
each hit.’

 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

I know that the Australian Masters TO ruled it this way, but are there any other examples of TO's agreeing with this ruling? Seems like the intent of the clause about extra attacks in the core rules is intended to prohibit this sort of thing unless the war scroll explicitly allows it (like the Ripperdactyl scroll). 

[stato]

EDIT:  Deleted comment - I made an error

[heywoah_twitch]

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

Well, having looked at the pdf, it appears that GW aren't quite sure how an index is supposed to work.  If you want something to appear in a certain chapter then you need to list it under that chapter.

Nevertheless, I am still of the opinion that the warscroll does not override the core rule.  It would appear that this will need to be resolved by GW as, if your interpretation is correct, then all warscrolls with this ability are unaffected by the core rule, which makes the core rule pointless.

If someone I'm playing insists on using this interpretation, then I will go along with it so long as my 3 Waywatchers gain the same benefit.  

Yes, they both messed up the index and they messed up wording the rule of one to matter in almost any way (due to the override and then doubling down on it with the FAQ I posted). I'm hoping for a fix that allows the rules of one to have teeth but also give room for interesting warscrolls to 'break the rules' so to speak but in a balanced way. 

On the waywatcher, of course it works, enjoy! It's also a much less exploitable interaction as well imo, but I make rulings based on what the rules exactly say, not what I think is balanced (obviously, otherwise I'd be against 80 attacks from scar veterans

[Aelfric]

41 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

The Core Rules last until the end of the Allegiance Abilities heading. They pasted an example battleplan page after the Battleplans heading and note this in the contents, but continue on into warscrolls, battalions, allegiance abilities. See also Core Rules pdf.

Well, having looked at the pdf, it appears that GW aren't quite sure how an index is supposed to work.  If you want something to appear in a certain chapter then you need to list it under that chapter.

Nevertheless, I am still of the opinion that the warscroll does not override the core rule.  It would appear that this will need to be resolved by GW as, if your interpretation is correct, then all warscrolls with this ability are unaffected by the core rule, which makes the core rule pointless.

If someone I'm playing insists on using this interpretation, then I will go along with it so long as my 3 Waywatchers gain the same benefit.  

[heywoah_twitch]

4 hours ago, Aelfric said:

I'm not sure that it is a good idea to interpret rules by implication.  The rules need to be interpreted based on the explicit wording given.  The core book, in the section headed "Warscrolls" on page 238, states that "any extra attacks, hit rolls or wound rolls gained by the use of an ability cannot themselves generate extra attacks, hit rolls or wound rolls.  This is explicit and is referring directly to the use of abilities.  .According to the index, the core rules start on page 226 and end on 236 as the next heading is "Battleplan: First blood".  The Warscroll section comes after this heading. In this case, this sets down rules on how to read and use warscrolls and are not part of the core rules.  As such they cannot be overridden.

Each ability that grants extra attacks on a roll of 6+ (or indeed through any other process) cannot override this rule unless there is explicit wording on the warscroll that says so.  In this instance, there is no such wording.  Indeed, every warscroll that has such an ability would by implication override this rule, which would lead to the question - to what does this rule refer? since it can automatically be overridden by all abilities it restricts.  

 

The Core Rules last until the end of the Allegiance Abilities heading. They pasted an example battleplan page after the Battleplans heading and note this in the contents, but continue on into warscrolls, battalions, allegiance abilities. See also Core Rules pdf.

[Aelfric]

3 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

It implicitly does say that by reading "whenever you roll a 6+ to hit". That's all-inclusive. That's every 6+ to hit.

I'm not sure that it is a good idea to interpret rules by implication.  The rules need to be interpreted based on the explicit wording given.  The core book, in the section headed "Warscrolls" on page 238, states that "any extra attacks, hit rolls or wound rolls gained by the use of an ability cannot themselves generate extra attacks, hit rolls or wound rolls.  This is explicit and is referring directly to the use of abilities.  .According to the index, the core rules start on page 226 and end on 236 as the next heading is "Battleplan: First blood".  The Warscroll section comes after this heading. In this case, this sets down rules on how to read and use warscrolls and are not part of the core rules.  As such they cannot be overridden.

Each ability that grants extra attacks on a roll of 6+ (or indeed through any other process) cannot override this rule unless there is explicit wording on the warscroll that says so.  In this instance, there is no such wording.  Indeed, every warscroll that has such an ability would by implication override this rule, which would lead to the question - to what does this rule refer? since it can automatically be overridden by all abilities it restricts.  

 

[heywoah_twitch]

30 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

And what does this have to do with „until the next hero phase“?

It does not say „these attacks can produce further attacks“

It implicitly does say that by reading "whenever you roll a 6+ to hit". That's all-inclusive. That's every 6+ to hit. 

And you make an attack roll with extra attacks just the same as normal attacks, and they can roll 6+ so I really do not understand the confusion.

If the rule of one was designed to stop this, then the rule is a complete failure because it straight up does not. Perhaps GW intends for this not to work, that's for them to fix, not us. All we can do is interpret what the rules say, and there isn't a way to read this where it doesn't work. Every 6+ means every 6+.

[JackStreicher]

3 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

My quote exactly answers his question, and yes I read it.

 

The ability is looking for all hit rolls of 6+

Extra attacks roll to hit

The buff lasts until your next hero phase

Extra attacks are rolled before your next hero phase

The core rules say extra attacks can't produce extra attacks

This ability says "whenever you roll a 6+" aka every single 6+ to hit

Abilities trump core rules limitations as per the FAQ I posted

It's as simple as that

And what does this have to do with „until the next hero phase“?

 

the rule of one was SPECIFICALLY designed to work with Abilities like the Scar Vets, it is not overwriting anything at this point. It does not say „these attacks can produce further attacks“ which would overwrite the rule of one.

 

though I am currently not sure whether the rule of one still exists in the GHB 2019 or if they replaced it by adapting the text of affected abilities.

[heywoah_twitch]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Did you read the question at all? 🤨

he asked WHY Attacks generates by a 6 can generate another attack on a 6 and so on. He is confused because there‘s nothing allowing that, though an GW official claimed it to be the case.

 

My quote exactly answers his question, and yes I read it.

 

The ability is looking for all hit rolls of 6+

Extra attacks roll to hit

The buff lasts until your next hero phase

Extra attacks are rolled before your next hero phase

The core rules say extra attacks can't produce extra attacks

This ability says "whenever you roll a 6+" aka every single 6+ to hit

Abilities trump core rules limitations as per the FAQ I posted

It's as simple as that

[Platypus]

I don’t see why it would generate more attacks either. Perhaps there was some confusion about stacking the command ability, which you can do. It’s even clarified in the FAQ:

 

”Q: If I use the Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur’s Saurian Savagery command ability on a unit more than once, do I get 1 extra attack on a 6 for each time it has been used?
A: Yes.”

[JackStreicher]

5 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

The 6+ proc lasts until your next hero phase, and the additional attacks are rolled before your next hero phase, so the buff still applies.

Did you read the question at all? 🤨

he asked WHY Attacks generates by a 6 can generate another attack on a 6 and so on. He is confused because there‘s nothing allowing that, though an GW official claimed it to be the case.

 

[Aelfric]

As far as I can see, there is nothing in the wording on the warscroll that overrides the core rule.

[heywoah_twitch]

The 6+ proc lasts until your next hero phase, and the additional attacks are rolled before your next hero phase, so the buff still applies.

[The_Yellow_Sign]

6 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Yeah I know that AoS rules are exception-based, but what is it in the wording Saurus Scar-Vets command ability that overrides the core rule that extra attacks don't generate more attacks? 

 

[heywoah_twitch]