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CP having more variation


Ryan Taylor

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Good day folks, 

I have been hearing a lot of griping about the fact that death can bring back units for 1 Command Point (referred to as CP henceforth) and that the command ability seems to lead to a negative play experience. 

What if CPs had more of a range. What I mean by this is some command abilities could have a different CP value. This would be akin to 40k and would require a little bit more of a choice from the player that had more powerful command abilities. 

 

What do you think? Let's discuss. 

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My personal hope is that AoS stays as far away from 40k's stratagem and CP concept as possible. It was a good idea in 40k that ended up with terrible implementation where armies basically pivot on stratagems and armies are build to maximize CP/regen (see the loyal 32 Guardsmen in every imperial list). I like that CP is limited, only useful to certain models, and has very clearly defined effects. I say this as BoC player who most of the time doesn't take a model with a Command Ability at all. 

I personally don't mind the LoN command ability as you can play around it - it is hard and you can't always but because its tied to both gravesites and a character you can plan around how it will impact the game and use positioning to control it. 

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2 hours ago, Ryan Taylor said:

Good day folks, 

I have been hearing a lot of griping about the fact that death can bring back units for 1 Command Point (referred to as CP henceforth) and that the command ability seems to lead to a negative play experience. 

What if CPs had more of a range. What I mean by this is some command abilities could have a different CP value. This would be akin to 40k and would require a little bit more of a choice from the player that had more powerful command abilities. 

 

What do you think? Let's discuss. 

I think this would be fine and would not add too much complexity to the game.  It would be interesting to see what the impact of the regrow summoning costing 2 command points would be.  It still seems pretty powerful but there is definitely a higher cost. My gut tells me it would still be good but it would take some testing to get a better feel. I think this is definitely a viable way for GW to go.

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I think the killteam approach is the most sane.

You get 1 CP per turn. If your leader is alive (warlord in AoS case), you get an extra CP. Those CPs can only be spent in that turn, not being able to pool them. Only the battallion ones are free from this rule.

There you have command abilities with 1 CP cost, and 2 CP cost. Anyways it would require a major fix that won't happen in a very long time.

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8 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

You get 1 CP per turn. If your leader is alive (warlord in AoS case), you get an extra CP. Those CPs can only be spent in that turn, not being able to pool them. Only the battallion ones are free from this rule.

Wouldn't that make battalions even more powerful than they already are?  And since there is such asymmetrical access to battalions and battalion quality across factions, I don't know if that's a good idea.

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2 minutes ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

Wouldn't that make battalions even more powerful than they already are?  And since there is such asymmetrical access to battalions and battalion quality across factions, I don't know if that's a good idea.

Not really, its value would decay since now you are generating 2CPs instead of 1CP and the good stratagems costing 2 CPs instead of 1CP.

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I do agree that some command points are stronger than others, and so I wouldn't be opposed to them having different costs. I think this would also create variety as it would mean that there would be a reason to use 'weaker' command abilities. 

The death command ability is probably the worst offender (while you can play around it, it's just not a fun play experience for the opponent to have all their work in destroying a unit mean nothing). I would quite like to see this changed, maybe to a max number of points you can bring back. Multiple command point cost may also remedy this a bit. 

My one concern is that it would make factions with battalions (e.g. battletome factions) gain a large advantage over those that have not (so that would need to be considered in balance).   

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IMO CPs are fine where they are, but there are some CA that should be remade.
Most of the time assumptions that  some CAs are overpowered come from people who are not able to approach an opponent with said CAs, or their army is not built the way they need to approach it and they should analyse their games rather than say something is OP. You can learn a lot about Endless Legions from thread linked by @Lemon Knuckles so I won't go into explaining it here. Also just my opinion, Endless Legions cause bitterness because death is strong, not CA in particular is strong. Think about that: Seraphon can bring wholle NEW units to the table, Sylvaneth can as well, and they don't need CPs for it. Chaos demon/mortal armies have summoning that is completely free, you don't need to cast specific spells or not cast at all, you just get reinforcements wherever you want as the game escalates. But we see much less people complain about those armies, than about Death.
Next type of CAs that I see people complain is stacking bonuses, like attacks or charge distance (hello mister Sureheart), what you need to do is simply remove stacking and it will be fine for most of those abilities, the only army who will struggle from it are Deepkin, who have just one turn to use faction based CAs but it's easier to fix one army, rather than invent different costs for dozens of CAs, right?

I like the "every hero have a go each turn" approach  suggested by @Vasshpit

In the end, play wisely, if something hard counters you - earn your victories elsewhere, if you are able and willing - build your armies to beat the most difficult match ups and learn how to play it to win against others. There are so little factions that are uncapable of competing, all of them being weak not because others are strong, or CPs are poorly designed, but because they don't have battletome. And you can always pick another army, and I'm not talking about waac, just something you like that works better or works differently. For example: my first army are Stormcast Eternals and my second is Flesh Eater Courts, I picked up FEC for this exact reason: they work differently.

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Would agree, I don't particularly think that the CP mechanic as it stands needs a major overhaul.  CP's are a very precious commodity that often have other factors in place when they get spent.

That said, I'd not be sorry to have battalions downgraded and the bonus CP you gain from them removed.

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1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

That said, I'd not be sorry to have battalions downgraded and the bonus CP you gain from them removed.

I'd dissargee, there is already very little reason to take battalions since very few do you something good and worth the points paid for battalion and "tax" units in them.
P.S. Having all but two SCE battalion of old being nerfed to dirt still bothers me a lot.

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5 minutes ago, XReN said:

I'd dissargee, there is already very little reason to take battalions since very few do you something good and worth the points paid for battalion and "tax" units in them.
P.S. Having all but two SCE battalion of old being nerfed to dirt still bothers me a lot.

Isn’t your argument then that all factions should have worthwhile Battalions instead of no factions any? 

 

Also im for keeping AoS as simple as possible. Every year GW seems to want to add more to it. That road leads to the mess that warhammer was when I quit. Two years ago I could teach someone in one game, now I need at least two or three to get from basic rules to allegiance abilities and all artefacts and endless spells etc. 

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Rule book bloat and in general bloat is something that AoS has managed to slip into a small degree. On top of remembering all your warscrolls and the synergies that go on in between them, as well as all the timing steps of it all, learning battle plans and then the different armies AoS2 has added in realms. 

Remembering a unique realm spell, a realmscape feature, a realm command trait and 6 additional round spells can be pretty mindblowing, I've just got my head around learning Sylvaneth. I have to remember multiple things in the hero phase, where to position models, where to deploy turn one for woods, where my woods should be going, etc etc etc. 

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So a lot of hate towards LoN CP bringing back units but no alternatives to give them summoning. As @XReN said lots of other armies can bring on more models. In LoN you start with 2k of points and never go over 2k of points, yet other summa armies can easily bring an extra 500pts-1000pts of models on the board.

I personally think that summoning is a bit broken and a simple fix is having something like a percentage of points based on army size, so something like 25%, so in 2k you can summon 400pts of models. It still has to be whole units, so it prevents abuse and makes bringing on extra units more of a tactical decision rather than an instant every turn action. 

The command points system is fine as it is. The only changes I feel the game needs is to stop certain abilities stacking and for taking extra CP to count towards total army spend with regards to getting triumph rolls, as I regularly play summoning armies who go under on points to get extra CP and the triumph roll, then simply summon the points deficit they originally had back on the board by turn 1 or 2. Playing an army without summoning I've had lots of games basically be 2kvs3k battles. 

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I would argue that if we play a game, and I kill 30 grimghast reapers and you re-summon them back you play a 2k list + the cost of that unit as you've either got use out of them before they died, or I've committed X of my army to kill them which you've just got back. 

I think most people find it grating because how stupidly easy it is, yes you can try and cover all 4 gravesites or snipe the enemies general but both those things on the table are incredibly hard. A savvy LoN player will nearly always have one defensive gravesite which if you're camping it you've won anyway, as well as the general being either Nagash or a necromancer with a 6+/6+ and a 4+ to pass wounds to skeletons.

It's a combination of it being incredibly hard to stop as well as taking no effort to do so. Tzeentch have to cast 10 spells to summon 10 Blue Horrors, LoN have to spend 1CP to return 300+ points back of Grimghasts. No rolling involved, etc. 

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@AaronWIlson OK, fair point on summoning back takes over the initial points limit, but I've yet to see you suggest an alternative to LoN summoning other than nerf it completely. And if LoN get summoning nerfed why should other faction be exempt? Also for Tzeentch to cast 10 spells is not difficult to do, especially considering almost every unit can cast spells and they have casting bonuses and destiny dice. I've played plenty of Tzeentch games where they've got their 10 spells in a turn or 2. They were going to cast them anyway and as a result of doing what they were going to do regardless of summoning they can now summon. 

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20 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

I would argue that if we play a game, and I kill 30 grimghast reapers and you re-summon them back you play a 2k list + the cost of that unit as you've either got use out of them before they died, or I've committed X of my army to kill them which you've just got back. 

I think most people find it grating because how stupidly easy it is, yes you can try and cover all 4 gravesites or snipe the enemies general but both those things on the table are incredibly hard. A savvy LoN player will nearly always have one defensive gravesite which if you're camping it you've won anyway, as well as the general being either Nagash or a necromancer with a 6+/6+ and a 4+ to pass wounds to skeletons.

It's a combination of it being incredibly hard to stop as well as taking no effort to do so. Tzeentch have to cast 10 spells to summon 10 Blue Horrors, LoN have to spend 1CP to return 300+ points back of Grimghasts. No rolling involved, etc. 

Let's see what you brought up here.

About stupid abilities: lets look at Sylvaneth, shall we? I played against a 1 drop list that summoned 40 or 50 driads over the course of the game and charged me with 12 scythe kurnoths and Allariele FIRST TURN (Dreadwood, if you wondering), previously he won a game against destruction player, a member of Russian AoS ETC team (and they won 2nd place there) and won the game FIRST TURN by blowing away all the tools this bonesplitter player needed to win. The same thing is possible with grimghast, you can just hammer them to dirt turn by turn, no matter how many are coming your way. (Btw I beat this list because he whiffed his kurnoth damage rolls and did not finished my ghouls)

Please visit this discussion:

You will find some examples of how Endless Legions are  not OP, explanation of it's flaws and if you are willing - contribute to it.

Tzeench count every spell cast on the table, and as @Tropical Ghost General mentioned, Tzeench gain their summon from playing the game and do not need to consider any placement or dedicating resourses issues 
 

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20 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@AaronWIlson OK, fair point on summoning back takes over the initial points limit, but I've yet to see you suggest an alternative to LoN summoning other than nerf it completely. And if LoN get summoning nerfed why should other faction be exempt? Also for Tzeentch to cast 10 spells is not difficult to do, especially considering almost every unit can cast spells and they have casting bonuses and destiny dice. I've played plenty of Tzeentch games where they've got their 10 spells in a turn or 2. They were going to cast them anyway and as a result of doing what they were going to do regardless of summoning they can now summon. 

I'm not a games designer and I don't have a good enough holistic view to simply make a snap decision on what should be changed, I was just stating why people find it grating / currently think it's above the curve.

I agree with Tzeetnch, my point wasn't's "hard" to do, my point was more there is a variable in there. Most Tzeentch lists will probably get to 10 fate points by end of turn 2 movement phase, maybe by turn 1 if there opponent has gone first and cast some spells. That said, all them spells have to be rolled, they could be unbound, they could fail, etc. There is something that needs to be done to achieve the end goal, like Khorne having to kill units / have them be killed, Nurgle having units in areas of the board etc.

I totally agree most armies generate there summoning points by just doing what would normally do but there is something that has to be done to get them. LoN there is not, it's simply click a button and have it happen and I think that's part of the problem people have with it. 

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2 minutes ago, XReN said:

Let's see what you brought up here.

About stupid abilities: lets look at Sylvaneth, shall we? I played against a 1 drop list that summoned 40 or 50 driads over the course of the game and charged me with 12 scythe kurnoths and Allariele FIRST TURN (Dreadwood, if you wondering), previously he won a game against destruction player, a member of Russian AoS ETC team (and they won 2nd place there) and won the game FIRST TURN by blowing away all the tools this bonesplitter player needed to win. The same thing is possible with grimghast, you can just hammer them to dirt turn by turn, no matter how many are coming your way. (Btw I beat this list because he whiffed his kurnoth damage rolls and did not finished my ghouls)

Please visit this discussion:

You will find some examples of how Endless Legions are  not OP, explanation of it's flaws and if you are willing - contribute to it.

Tzeench count every spell cast on the table, and as @Tropical Ghost General mentioned, Tzeench gain their summon from playing the game and do not need to consider any placement or dedicating resourses issues 
 

I totally agree other armies have very strong things, Sylvaneth are a tier 1 army alongside LoN and both have tools. I was stating why people think LoN Endless legions is too strong and is grating to play against :)

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8 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

LoN there is not, it's simply click a button and have it happen and I think that's part of the problem people have with it.

So a LoN player with 1CP a turn has to make a choice between bringing a unit back or using a command ability, the latter of which is generally better. Whereas a Khorne player justs has to have things die, can even kill his own units to bring on summoning. It's not an easy choice to make spend precious CP to summon. 

So let's say LoN ability is changed from a CP to an instant in game mechanic, such as units dying or spells being cast. How does that change the fact that the LoN player has just summoned back the unit that you focused on killing. It would be worse, because like all of the other summoning mechanics the LoN player hasn't had to do anything to make that summoning happen and now has CP to spend on making it's units perform better. 

As I said earlier, I think summoning is broken and a simple solution is put a cap in place on total points that can be summoned in a game based on a percentage of the points for that game. That way all of the factions that can't summon aren't going to be struggling against such an unfair match up. 

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