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Soul Cage Spell Nighthaunt


Baldur
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Hello everybode

I looked for an answer for this in this forum and google in general and found no answer.


Question: if I successfully cast the spell Soul Cage on a unit, can the enchanted unit activate only when all of my units have been activated, or can it be activated as the last unit by the enemy?

Thanks

 

Soul Cage: Casting Value 6. If successfully cast pick an enemy unit within 12” of the caster that is visible to it. Until the start of your next hero phase, that unit cannot attack in the combat phase until all other eligible units have done so. In addition, the unit cannot retreat.

 

 

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Just for the record, the precis of the Soul Cage rule in the OP is not what appears in the Nighthaunt book. Here is the text from Nighthaunt (note the emphasis on the word fight):

'Soul Cage has a casting value of 6. If successfully cast, pick an enemy unit within 12" of the caster and visible to them. Until the start of your next hero phase, that unit cannot retreat. In addition, until the start of your next hero phase that unit cannot fight in the combat phase unless all other enemy units that are eligible to fight have already done so.'

TLDR Soul cage says fight, not attack.

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On 11/22/2018 at 1:48 AM, Baldur said:

Thank you for the quick reply.

@Isotop I always thought that when you activate a unit you have to attack as well. Would not you waste your attacks by activating?
And if you can activate them then you have to activate them by the turn order?

According to the core rules, if you fight with a unit (aka activate) you must attack.  Under section 5: Fighting.

I don't think you could choose the soul cage unit to 'activate' though.  You can only choose an eligible unit.  As the opposition hasn't attacked with all their options yet, your soul cage unit still isn't eligible.  If they were your last unit, you'd be forced to pass

Thanks to the FAQ (page 5 under "attacking"), your opponent cannot also pass if they have eligible units to fight with.  So what you end up with is that you will continue to pass until all their units have fought.  Then, when it's your turn, your unit would finally be eligible and could fight.

I think what's happened here that's causing the confusion  is a simple typo.  Most likely, soul cage should have said "...that unit cannot fight..." and not "...they unit cannot attack...".  

Edit: It was pointed out that the real rule is actually "fight".

Edited by Vextol
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3 hours ago, Isotop said:

Yeah, it must attack. Not being able to attack (because of Soul Cage) does not make the unit not eligible. What I am saying is: You can pick the unit to fight - if you do so, you can pile in (Soul Cage does not stop you from doing so) but you will no be able to attack.

What exactly is not clear about this? The core rules do not say a unit has to be able to attack in order to be eligible for fighting.

Actually, it does.  It is the transitive property of equality.  If a unit is eligible, this means it is able fight.  If a unit is able fight, it must attack.  Therefore, a unit that is eligible must attack.  If a unit cannot attack, it isn't eligible to fight because eligibility hinges on the necessity to attack. 

If the wording said "If you pick a unit to fight, it first piles in, and then the models in the unit can attack" then it would work.  But the presence of the "must attack" means a unit that has been hit with soul cage cannot fight and a unit that cannot fight isn't eligible to be activated.

Edited by Vextol
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Thank you for the quick reply.

@Isotop I always thought that when you activate a unit you have to attack as well. Would not you waste your attacks by activating?
And if you can activate them then you have to activate them by the turn order?

Edited by Baldur
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4 hours ago, Baldur said:

Thank you for the quick reply.

@Isotop I always thought that when you activate a unit you have to attack as well. Would not you waste your attacks by activating?
And if you can activate them then you have to activate them by the turn order?

(1) Yes, you have to attack when you are picked to fight in the combat phase (after you piled in - which you do not have to)

(2) Yes, you would "waste" your attacks in this scenario

(3) Not sure what you mean by "turn order". The players take turns picking units to fight with (remember fight =/= attacking)

Just to clear possible confusion: The term "activating" you used is called "fighting" in the core rules. Soul Cage does not stop a unit from being picked to fight. It just stops the unit from making their attacks when picked before all enemy models attacked.

A relevant situation to use this option would include a unit of Skinks affected by Soul Cage. They could be picked to fight in order to use their Wary Fighters ability. Otherwise, I did not say it is a good thing to pick a unit to fight when they can not attack due to Soul Cage - but it certainly is an option 😅.

Skinks reference: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-skinks-en.pdf

Edited by Isotop
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1 hour ago, Isotop said:

I agree, an eligible unit must fight. I do not see how not being able to attack makes a unit not eligible. I think we can agree that every "must" includes the implicit statement "if possible". So, yes, a unit picked to fight must attack after piling in, if possible. If you disagree with this implication, feel free to dicuss.

The problems I am seeing with your understanding are the following:

(1) A unit that charged in the same turn is eligible to be picked for fighting (even if it is not within 3" of an enemy unit when it is picked). Would you say a unit that can not reach enemy models with their pile-in + weapon range become not eligible (because it will not be able to attack)?

(2) A unit engaged with an enemy model equipped with the Dopelganger Cloak will not be eligible before the bearer of the Doppelganger Cloak attacked. Is this your intention?

(3) Imagine the following scenario: There are two units in melee combat with each other (within 3" of each other). There are no other combats happening. Both units are affected by Soul Cage. What happens here?

I don't necessarily agree with the notion "must" being "if possible" because it would call every other "must" in question.  I always read must as a definite must unless a warscrolls specifically says they don't have to. 

You cannot fight unless you attack because you must attack to be able to fight.  That makes attacking integral to activating because fighting is integral to activating and attacking is integral to fighting. It's the big difference in our logic.  I do not read an implicit "if possible".

1. Interesting and something I hadn't considered.  That's a legitimate question in any form actually.  I think the intent behind the rule was that if you killed a charged unit with a different unit, you could pile into a second unit with the one that charged so as not to waste the charge.  I've never considered what would happen if your second pile in didn't actually make it to anything. 

2. I suppose yes but I know this community at large would disagree.  If not, I'm invisioning a stardrake with the cloak in the house that let's you attack in the hero phase.  If you had enough stuff in combat, he could easily wait until the end, eat 6 people (and break cohesion killing a ton) and never himself be attacked.  

3.  I considered this actually.  I believe what would occur would be the first player whose turn it was when there were only soul cage units left in the field would get to attack.  Not super clear though.  

I think I'm on the fence right now.  I don't like the idea of making a unit lose all their attacks.  It's one thing to make someone attack last, it's another to take 100% of their combat capability simply with some tricky activation 

Edited by Vextol
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4 hours ago, Glazer said:

Just for the record, the precis of the Soul Cage rule in the OP is not what appears in the Nighthaunt book. Here is the text from Nighthaunt (note the emphasis on the word fight):

'Soul Cage has a casting value of 6. If successfully cast, pick an enemy unit within 12" of the caster and visible to them. Until the start of your next hero phase, that unit cannot retreat. In addition, until the start of your next hero phase that unit cannot fight in the combat phase unless all other enemy units that are eligible to fight have already done so.'

TLDR Soul cage says fight, not attack.

Haha!  It was fight!  Not a GW typo then but a general typo 😂

That basically clears it up for me.  Thanks!

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Page 55 – Soul Cage Change the last sentence to:‘In addition, until your next hero phase, that unit fights at the end of the combat phase.’

This seems to make this a lot like locus of diversion. 

My question is, Does Smashing and Bashing (Ironjawz allegiance ability) allow the unit in question to attack immediately instead of at the end of the combat phase, if you have activated the allegiance ability by killing another unit?

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20 hours ago, Vextol said:

According to the core rules, if you fight with a unit (aka activate) you must attack.  Under section 5: Fighting.

I don't think you could choose the soul cage unit to 'activate' though.  You can only choose an eligible unit.  As the opposition hasn't attacked with all their options yet, your soul cage unit still isn't eligible.  If they were your last unit, you'd be forced to pass

Thanks to the FAQ (page 5 under "attacking"), your opponent cannot also pass if they have eligible units to fight with.  So what you end up with is that you will continue to pass until all their units have fought.  Then, when it's your turn, your unit would finally be eligible and could fight.

I think what's happened here that's causing the confusion  is a simple typo.  Most likely, soul cage should have said "...that unit cannot fight..." and not "...they unit cannot attack...".  

Any unit within 3" of an enemy unit and/or any unit that made a charge this turn is an eligible unit. Therefore, under the current wording of Soul Cage, there is nothing stopping you from fighting with such a unit at any point of the combat phase. I think your understanding/definition of eligible goes a little too far. If I misinterpreted you or missed anything, feel free to correct me.

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On 11/21/2018 at 8:25 PM, Isotop said:

I agree with @AaronWIlson and would add the following: As far as I can see the unit can still be activated, it just can not attack. So I guess you could, if you wanted, choose a unit affected by Soul Cage to fight and then even pile in with it - but not attack (at any point of the units activation order in the fight phase) . Am I getting this right?

The core rules state that a activated unit must attack after activation and pile in. 

 

4 hours ago, Isotop said:

Any unit within 3" of an enemy unit and/or any unit that made a charge this turn is an eligible unit. Therefore, under the current wording of Soul Cage, there is nothing stopping you from fighting with such a unit at any point of the combat phase. I think your understanding/definition of eligible goes a little too far. If I misinterpreted you or missed anything, feel free to correct me.

It says it in the immediate next paragraph right after this. Must attack. The only exception to this rule is if a unit charged but has no valid targets in range when it activates and piles in.

Edited by King Taloren
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27 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

The core rules state that a activated unit must attack after activation and pile in. 

 

It says it in the immediate next paragraph right after this. Must attack. The only exception to this rule is if a unit charged but has no valid targets in range when it activates and piles in.

Yeah, it must attack. Not being able to attack (because of Soul Cage) does not make the unit not eligible. What I am saying is: You can pick the unit to fight - if you do so, you can pile in (Soul Cage does not stop you from doing so) but you will no be able to attack.

What exactly is not clear about this? The core rules do not say a unit has to be able to attack in order to be eligible for fighting.

Edited by Isotop
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6 hours ago, Vextol said:

Actually, it does.  It is the transitive property of equality.  If a unit is eligible, this means it can fight.  If a unit can fight, it must attack.  Therefore, a unit that is eligible must attack.  If a unit cannot attack, it isn't eligible to fight because eligibility hinges on the necessity to attack. 

If the wording said "If you pick a unit to fight, it first piles in, and then the models in the unit can attack" then it would work.  But the presence of the "must attack" means a unit that has been hit with soul cage cannot fight and a unit that cannot fight isn't eligible to be activated.

I agree, an eligible unit must fight. I do not see how not being able to attack makes a unit not eligible. I think we can agree that every "must" includes the implicit statement "if possible". So, yes, a unit picked to fight must attack after piling in, if possible. If you disagree with this implication, feel free to dicuss.

The problems I am seeing with your understanding are the following:

(1) A unit that charged in the same turn is eligible to be picked for fighting (even if it is not within 3" of an enemy unit when it is picked). Would you say a unit that can not reach enemy models with their pile-in + weapon range become not eligible (because it will not be able to attack)?

(2) A unit engaged with an enemy model equipped with the Dopelganger Cloak will not be eligible before the bearer of the Doppelganger Cloak attacked. Is this your intention?

(3) Imagine the following scenario: There are two units in melee combat with each other (within 3" of each other). There are no other combats happening. Both units are affected by Soul Cage. What happens here?

Edited by Isotop
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2 hours ago, Isotop said:

 

@King Taloren: I honestly do not know what you are talking about for 80% of your post. A lot of times you do not even react to the points I came up with. Your opportunism is really starting to annoy me at a personal level. Sorry for the harsh words, but you should really look into the rules and arguments a little deeper before joining the conversation in such a hostile manner.

Then obviously not reading what I said. I’m at least using the actual FAQ and rules to back up what I am saying. MUST is not an optional thing. You MUST attack after pile in. It states it over and over in the corerules. There is no other place in the rules that MUST is not a firm requirement without a warscroll overriding the rule. 

 

Sorry you think im hostile but you haven’t backed anything you have tried to say in this conversation  with anything from the rules or faqs. 

A unit that fights piles in and attacks. There is not just pile in or just activate and not attack. The rules say it plainly that fight is pile in and attack. Choosing a unit to fight must be able to attack. The eligibility to fight is to make sure someone doesn’t pile in a unit that did not charge or is within 3” of an enemy unit. Without this you could pile in attack with a unit that did not charge but could pile into range with weapons from 3.1- 4” away. It doesn't say a unit can fight and not do anything that is in the fight phase such as pile in and attack.

 

And thepoint is is kind of moot because the wording posted here was wrong and it is fight not attack still doesn’t mean you can activate a unit that cannot attack.

Edited by King Taloren
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I agree with @AaronWIlson and would add the following: As far as I can see the unit can still be activated, it just can not attack. So I guess you could, if you wanted, choose a unit affected by Soul Cage to fight and then even pile in with it - but not attack (at any point of the units activation order in the fight phase) . Am I getting this right?

Edited by Isotop
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7 hours ago, Isotop said:

I agree, an eligible unit must fight. I do not see how not being able to attack makes a unit not eligible. I think we can agree that every "must" includes the implicit statement "if possible". So, yes, a unit picked to fight must attack after piling in, if possible. If you disagree with this implication, feel free to dicuss.

The problems I am seeing with your understanding are the following:

(1) A unit that charged in the same turn is eligible to be picked for fighting (even if it is not within 3" of an enemy unit when it is picked). Would you say a unit that can not reach enemy models with their pile-in + weapon range become not eligible (because it will not be able to attack)?

(2) A unit engaged with an enemy model equipped with the Dopelganger Cloak will not be eligible before the bearer of the Doppelganger Cloak attacked. Is this your intention?

(3) Imagine the following scenario: There are two units in melee combat with each other (within 3" of each other). There are no other combats happening. Both units are affected by Soul Cage. What happens here?

Pretty sure must is supposed to be solid because it throws way too many other rules for a loop. 

What do you say about battleplans that state all units must setup on the battlefield like total commitment?  Or all models in a unit must end their move with 1” of models in the same unit?  Or a unit must attack with all melee weapons when it attacks? 

Or must subtract 1 from all rolls targeting stormcast that were setup in the battlefield this turn?

or you must target the closest visible unit when targeting Idoneth Deepkin with ranged weapons?

 

There is an if possible but that is only if there is no way to make it possible. Such a a unit getting hard bisected and enemy units piled in to keep the from moving to regroup. You must make it so that every part of MUST is followed barring warscroll interference with certain abilities. Only when it is impossible to do so are you allowed to do otherwise. They state this pretty clearly in the faqs. (Heck they actually say in regards to the within an each of other models in the unit if you can’t do it then you can’t even move.)

 

(1)Yes core rules say over and over that units that pile in must attack after the pile and in.  the general consensus among most sigmar  players on 1d4chan is that this is the only exception to the pile in and attack rule. As a charging unit is the only one called out specifically aside from units within 3” of an enemy unit. They still have to end their charge within an inch of an enemy unit in the first place and helps with the chance of that unit having a chance to fight if the closest within 3” are removed or wiped out completely. Also why there is no rule in sigmar that you can only fight the unit you charged unlike 40k.

 

(2)  Yes this is also the intention here that Doppelgänger cloak is designed the be part of multiple units charging a single unit to wipe them giving the cloak time to out activate his opponent so his squishy yet powerful dude can kill things without being the target of retaliation. Getting charged solo is the only way to effectively kill a doppelgänger cloaked hero aside magic and range. The unit cannot activate because the cloak leaves them ineligible to attack forcing the cloak to activate before them.

(3) This one is as easy as when you have two opposing units with abilities that say they fight first in the fight phase. The player whose turn it is goes first. Simple

Edited by King Taloren
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2 hours ago, Glazer said:

Just for the record, the precis of the Soul Cage rule in the OP is not what appears in the Nighthaunt book. Here is the text from Nighthaunt (note the emphasis on the word fight):

'Soul Cage has a casting value of 6. If successfully cast, pick an enemy unit within 12" of the caster and visible to them. Until the start of your next hero phase, that unit cannot retreat. In addition, until the start of your next hero phase that unit cannot fight in the combat phase unless all other enemy units that are eligible to fight have already done so.'

TLDR Soul cage says fight, not attack.

Thanks mate, this clears things up! I am not a Nighthaunt player myself and had no acess to the battletome. I just went with the  wording @Baldur provided. 

@King Taloren: I honestly do not know what you are talking about for 80% of your post. A lot of times you do not even react to the points I came up with. Your opportunism is really starting to annoy me at a personal level. Sorry for the harsh words, but you should really look into the rules and arguments a little deeper before joining the conversation in such a hostile manner.

Edited by Isotop
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