Chameleon skinks summoning

[adamtrunzo]

Rules question: if I summon a unit of chameleon skinks, can they set up in ambush right away?  If so, can they deploy from ambush right away as well?

[XReN]

I can't answer the first question, but second is 100% no, since you reveal skinks in the movement phase, but you summon them at the END of movement phase

[Isotop]

3 hours ago, EMMachine said:

 

The Chamelion Ambush rule is handles in the core rules through the rules.

So they don't have to follow the rules of the battleplan instead following the rules of the warscroll and using the rules for Reserves

Summoning itself is also a Special Rule like Chamelion Ambush rule with the difference that the unit didn't exist at the start of the battle and forces the player to set the unit within the range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer, and a unit that isn't on the field is not in range so it is a illigal move.

The only thing that is possible, is summoning the unit, and during your next hero phase use Disappear from Sight and use the Chamelion Ambush in the next movement phase.

I do not see how your quote from the core rules supports either of our positions. Could you help me understand the connection here?

[King Taloren]

Would like to point out that summoning is not a core rule. It is an allegiance ability. That might change some thinking about this discussion 

[Isotop]

On 11/22/2018 at 3:19 PM, EMMachine said:

The quote on the core rules handles both the rules for Summoning as well as for Chamelion Ambush, so they can override the rules of the Battleplan (must be set up within x of the own territory).

But Chamelion Ambush doesn't override the summoning condition that the unit has to be in range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer.

If this should be it would say something like that:"you can put this unit in ambush even when this unit is summoned".

which is not the case.

So you say Chameleon Ambush is not forbidden by "normal" deployment since it is an ability on a warscroll (and therefore taking precedence)?

I think this reasoning is only true for First Blood, because (warscroll-)abilities only take precedence over the core rules. No battleplan other than First Blood is included in the core rules, though.

Am I missing something?

Reference for abilities vs. core rules: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 13

[EMMachine]

2 hours ago, Isotop said:

So you say Chameleon Ambush is not forbidden by "normal" deployment since it is an ability on a warscroll (and therefore taking precedence)?

I think this reasoning is only true for First Blood, because (warscroll-)abilities only take precedence over the core rules. No battleplan other than First Blood is included in the core rules, though.

Am I missing something?

Reference for abilities vs. core rules: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 13

Because of the rule in the special rules and the corerule says it exactly in the rule I quoted

Quote

SET UP ARMIES
Details of how the armies should be
set up can be found in the battleplan
you are using.
Sometimes an ability will allow a
unit to be set up in a location other
than the battlefield; when this is
the case, tell your opponent where
the unit is set up and keep it to one
side rather than placing it directly
on the battlefield. It will arrive later
as a reserve unit as described on
the right.

The blue marked part is, why a unit outside of the battlefield can use a special rule like for alternative set up like Chamelion Ambush or Summoning. Normally a unit outside of the battlefield can't even use Abilities. 

And alternative set up rules would be quite useless if they only would be useable in First Blood, with that argument.

[Isotop]

7 hours ago, EMMachine said:

Because of the rule in the special rules and the corerule says it exactly in the rule I quoted

But why is this rule not affecting Seraphon summoning? After all, Chameleon Ambush is an ability allowíng a
unit to be set up in a location other than the battlefield.

7 hours ago, EMMachine said:

The blue marked part is, why a unit outside of the battlefield can use a special rule like for alternative set up like Chamelion Ambush or Summoning. Normally a unit outside of the battlefield can't even use Abilities. 

That is not correct. Abilities affecting other units can not be used while being in reserve (not abilities in general).

7 hours ago, EMMachine said:

And alternative set up rules would be quite useless if they only would be useable in First Blood, with that argument.

I am not searching for a solution that makes sense to me or is "useful". I try to deduce from the rules how the topic we are arguing over can be solved. Remember that I argue for Chameleon Ambush being useable while summoning - so there would be no special treatment for First Blood.

[EMMachine]

You can't mix 2 diffenent set-up rules, you have to use one. After the summoned unit only exist because of summoning you have to use the conditions of the summoning rules. The unit is forced to be in range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer when summoned. A unit in Chamelion Ambush isn't in range of one of them so one of the requirement for summoning of the unit isn't fulfilled.

 

[Vextol]

13 hours ago, EMMachine said:

You can't mix 2 diffenent set-up rules, you have to use one. After the summoned unit only exist because of summoning you have to use the conditions of the summoning rules. The unit is forced to be in range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer when summoned. A unit in Chamelion Ambush isn't in range of one of them so one of the requirement for summoning of the unit isn't fulfilled.

 

That's true except the logic goes both ways.  A unit of chameleon skinks also isn't setup "wholly within their territory" as is almost always the wording on battleplans.  That comes from a "must be" scenario as well.

I think "setup" implies the same kind of setup in all situations unless clarified.   When Stormcast units are "setup" they add one to their save (I believe) for that turn.  It doesn't say when they are setup from off the board, just setup.  So a teleporting stormcast would also get additions to their save. 

Chameleon skinks are just the same.  Their rule is a special situation regarding how that particular unit is setup.   The how and why shouldn't matter. 

Besides, GW has said "setup" is anything that let's you move a model from one location to another without using a move or setup from off the battlefield.  They go on to clarify that it includes models setup off the board AND models being put into play once the match begins.  They make the distinction.

Does beg another question though.  Can chameleon skinks disappear and reappear in the same turn?  

[EMMachine]

3 minutes ago, Vextol said:

That's true except the logic goes both ways.  A unit of chameleon skinks also isn't setup "wholly within their territory" as is almost always the wording on battleplans.  That comes from a "must be" scenario as well.

The rules handling this, I already quoted twice. In this case it isn't mixing two rules. It's placing a unit that is in the armylist from the start of the game through the alternative rule instead of the deploymentrule of the battleplan.

In case of summoning the chamelion skinks do not exist until they are are placed by the summoning rule in range of the model summoning them (aka  Slaan or Astrolith Bearer), because the summoning rule created them and places them.

7 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Does beg another question though.  Can chameleon skinks disappear and reappear in the same turn?  

This is possible because disappearing is in the hero phase and the ambush rules takes place in the movement phase.

[Vextol]

26 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

The rules handling this, I already quoted twice. In this case it isn't mixing two rules. It's placing a unit that is in the armylist from the start of the game through the alternative rule instead of the deploymentrule of the battleplan

That differentiation doesn't exist though, that was my point. Setup is setup is setup.  If a rule specifically speaks to being "setup" you can only take that for what it is.  "Setup within range" and "Setup outside of" are the same when a unit rule refers to a nonspecific "Setup on the battlefield".  Kingdom, phylum class thing.  The setups being referred to by summoning and battleplans are a subset of what the chameleon skinks ability cover.  

"This is possible because disappearing is in the hero phase and the ambush rules takes place in the movement phase."

Don't know how to double quote on cellphone...anyway, the warsxroll says they can be setup on the battlefield in a "subsequent turn".  That's what made me ask.  Disappearing in the hero phase and showing up in the movement phase is the same turn.