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Chameleon skinks summoning


adamtrunzo
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I would think that you could use the ambush to set them up off the table - the rule states “instead of setting them up on the battlefield.” However, the summoning happens at the end of the movement phase, so I don’t think you can immediately set them up anywhere — that has to happen in one of your movement phases. 

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10 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

I'd say no, as the summoning ability states they *must* be set up within range of the Slann or an Astrolith bearer.

One ability gives you an option, the other is an absolute.

Note that the wording is similar to that in battleplans, though. For example, "First Blood" from the Core Rules (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf) -->

" Units must be set up wholly within their own territory, more than 12" from enemy territory."

The wording there is also must. I would suggest that the ability on the warscroll (with its set aside option) overrides the summoning rule (and its "must" terminology).

Just my two cents. Or four, in this case, since I've weighed in twice.

 

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18 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

I'd say no, as the summoning ability states they *must* be set up within range of the Slann or an Astrolith bearer.

One ability gives you an option, the other is an absolute.

I am not agreeing with your reasoning (and @King Taloren) here since the "normal" deployment restrictions of battleplans use must as well. The most simple example is from  First Blood:

"The players then alternate setting up units one at a time, starting with the player that won the rolloff to determine territories. Units must be set up wholly within their own territory, more than 12" from enemy territory."

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 12)

I do not have a Generals Handbook in front of me but I am pretty sure every battleplan uses this kind of wording regarding deployment.

I suppose you would allow Chameleon Skinks to use their Ambush ability during "normal" deployment - so why would this not be applicable to summoned units? 

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4 hours ago, Isotop said:

I suppose you would allow Chameleon Skinks to use their Ambush ability during "normal" deployment - so why would this not be applicable to summoned units? 

The Chamelion Ambush rule is handles in the core rules through the rules.

Quote

SET UP ARMIES
Details of how the armies should be
set up can be found in the battleplan
you are using.
Sometimes an ability will allow a
unit to be set up in a location other
than the battlefield; when this is
the case, tell your opponent where
the unit is set up and keep it to one
side rather than placing it directly
on the battlefield. It will arrive later
as a reserve unit as described on
the right.

So they don't have to follow the rules of the battleplan instead following the rules of the warscroll and using the rules for Reserves

Summoning itself is also a Special Rule like Chamelion Ambush rule with the difference that the unit didn't exist at the start of the battle and forces the player to set the unit within the range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer, and a unit that isn't on the field is not in range so it is a illigal move.

The only thing that is possible, is summoning the unit, and during your next hero phase use Disappear from Sight and use the Chamelion Ambush in the next movement phase.

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3 hours ago, EMMachine said:

 

The Chamelion Ambush rule is handles in the core rules through the rules.

So they don't have to follow the rules of the battleplan instead following the rules of the warscroll and using the rules for Reserves

Summoning itself is also a Special Rule like Chamelion Ambush rule with the difference that the unit didn't exist at the start of the battle and forces the player to set the unit within the range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer, and a unit that isn't on the field is not in range so it is a illigal move.

The only thing that is possible, is summoning the unit, and during your next hero phase use Disappear from Sight and use the Chamelion Ambush in the next movement phase.

I do not see how your quote from the core rules supports either of our positions. Could you help me understand the connection here?

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3 hours ago, Isotop said:

I do not see how your quote from the core rules supports either of our positions. Could you help me understand the connection here?

The quote on the core rules handles both the rules for Summoning as well as for Chamelion Ambush, so they can override the rules of the Battleplan (must be set up within x of the own territory).

But Chamelion Ambush doesn't override the summoning condition that the unit has to be in range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer.

If this should be it would say something like that:"you can put this unit in ambush even when this unit is summoned".

which is not the case.

Edited by EMMachine
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On 11/22/2018 at 3:19 PM, EMMachine said:

The quote on the core rules handles both the rules for Summoning as well as for Chamelion Ambush, so they can override the rules of the Battleplan (must be set up within x of the own territory).

But Chamelion Ambush doesn't override the summoning condition that the unit has to be in range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer.

If this should be it would say something like that:"you can put this unit in ambush even when this unit is summoned".

which is not the case.

So you say Chameleon Ambush is not forbidden by "normal" deployment since it is an ability on a warscroll (and therefore taking precedence)?

I think this reasoning is only true for First Blood, because (warscroll-)abilities only take precedence over the core rules. No battleplan other than First Blood is included in the core rules, though.

Am I missing something?

Reference for abilities vs. core rules: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 13

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2 hours ago, Isotop said:

So you say Chameleon Ambush is not forbidden by "normal" deployment since it is an ability on a warscroll (and therefore taking precedence)?

I think this reasoning is only true for First Blood, because (warscroll-)abilities only take precedence over the core rules. No battleplan other than First Blood is included in the core rules, though.

Am I missing something?

Reference for abilities vs. core rules: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 13

Because of the rule in the special rules and the corerule says it exactly in the rule I quoted

Quote

SET UP ARMIES
Details of how the armies should be
set up can be found in the battleplan
you are using.
Sometimes an ability will allow a
unit to be set up in a location other
than the battlefield; when this is
the case, tell your opponent where
the unit is set up and keep it to one
side rather than placing it directly
on the battlefield.
It will arrive later
as a reserve unit as described on
the right.

The blue marked part is, why a unit outside of the battlefield can use a special rule like for alternative set up like Chamelion Ambush or Summoning. Normally a unit outside of the battlefield can't even use Abilities. 

And alternative set up rules would be quite useless if they only would be useable in First Blood, with that argument.

Edited by EMMachine
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7 hours ago, EMMachine said:

Because of the rule in the special rules and the corerule says it exactly in the rule I quoted

But why is this rule not affecting Seraphon summoning? After all, Chameleon Ambush is an ability allowíng a
unit to be set up in a location other than the battlefield.

7 hours ago, EMMachine said:

The blue marked part is, why a unit outside of the battlefield can use a special rule like for alternative set up like Chamelion Ambush or Summoning. Normally a unit outside of the battlefield can't even use Abilities. 

That is not correct. Abilities affecting other units can not be used while being in reserve (not abilities in general).

7 hours ago, EMMachine said:

And alternative set up rules would be quite useless if they only would be useable in First Blood, with that argument.

I am not searching for a solution that makes sense to me or is "useful". I try to deduce from the rules how the topic we are arguing over can be solved. Remember that I argue for Chameleon Ambush being useable while summoning - so there would be no special treatment for First Blood.

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You can't mix 2 diffenent set-up rules, you have to use one. After the summoned unit only exist because of summoning you have to use the conditions of the summoning rules. The unit is forced to be in range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer when summoned. A unit in Chamelion Ambush isn't in range of one of them so one of the requirement for summoning of the unit isn't fulfilled.

 

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13 hours ago, EMMachine said:

You can't mix 2 diffenent set-up rules, you have to use one. After the summoned unit only exist because of summoning you have to use the conditions of the summoning rules. The unit is forced to be in range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer when summoned. A unit in Chamelion Ambush isn't in range of one of them so one of the requirement for summoning of the unit isn't fulfilled.

 

That's true except the logic goes both ways.  A unit of chameleon skinks also isn't setup "wholly within their territory" as is almost always the wording on battleplans.  That comes from a "must be" scenario as well.

I think "setup" implies the same kind of setup in all situations unless clarified.   When Stormcast units are "setup" they add one to their save (I believe) for that turn.  It doesn't say when they are setup from off the board, just setup.  So a teleporting stormcast would also get additions to their save. 

Chameleon skinks are just the same.  Their rule is a special situation regarding how that particular unit is setup.   The how and why shouldn't matter. 

Besides, GW has said "setup" is anything that let's you move a model from one location to another without using a move or setup from off the battlefield.  They go on to clarify that it includes models setup off the board AND models being put into play once the match begins.  They make the distinction.

Does beg another question though.  Can chameleon skinks disappear and reappear in the same turn?  

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3 minutes ago, Vextol said:

That's true except the logic goes both ways.  A unit of chameleon skinks also isn't setup "wholly within their territory" as is almost always the wording on battleplans.  That comes from a "must be" scenario as well.

The rules handling this, I already quoted twice. In this case it isn't mixing two rules. It's placing a unit that is in the armylist from the start of the game through the alternative rule instead of the deploymentrule of the battleplan.

In case of summoning the chamelion skinks do not exist until they are are placed by the summoning rule in range of the model summoning them (aka  Slaan or Astrolith Bearer), because the summoning rule created them and places them.

7 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Does beg another question though.  Can chameleon skinks disappear and reappear in the same turn?  

This is possible because disappearing is in the hero phase and the ambush rules takes place in the movement phase.

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26 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

The rules handling this, I already quoted twice. In this case it isn't mixing two rules. It's placing a unit that is in the armylist from the start of the game through the alternative rule instead of the deploymentrule of the battleplan

That differentiation doesn't exist though, that was my point. Setup is setup is setup.  If a rule specifically speaks to being "setup" you can only take that for what it is.  "Setup within range" and "Setup outside of" are the same when a unit rule refers to a nonspecific "Setup on the battlefield".  Kingdom, phylum class thing.  The setups being referred to by summoning and battleplans are a subset of what the chameleon skinks ability cover.  

"This is possible because disappearing is in the hero phase and the ambush rules takes place in the movement phase."

Don't know how to double quote on cellphone...anyway, the warsxroll says they can be setup on the battlefield in a "subsequent turn".  That's what made me ask.  Disappearing in the hero phase and showing up in the movement phase is the same turn.

Edited by Vextol
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1 hour ago, King Taloren said:

Would like to point out that summoning is not a core rule. It is an allegiance ability. That might change some thinking about this discussion 

So is the stormcast ability, shock and awe.  It's directly under scions of the storm, their ability allowing them to be placed off the board.    

Shock and awe basically says when a stormcast model is setup on the battlefield, enemies subtract 1 from hit rolls against them that turn.

 Again, very specifically worded as  "setup on the battlefield".  I would argue strongly that Lord aquilor would trigger this when he teleports vanguard units.  It's basically the same thing. 

The argument that "the unit  doesn't exist" doesn't really hold up.  Coming  into existence triggers all the abilities, the same as coming into existence on placement would.  "Instead of setting up" HAS to occur before setup otherwise it would never trigger.  I'd call it top of the stack. 

It's a really good question regardless.

Edited by Vextol
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2 hours ago, King Taloren said:

Well my point out was more directed over that warscroll override core rules but not necessarily other allegiance abilities. Summoning states has to be set up in range of a Slaan or Bearer and summoning isn’t a core rule so does the skinks rule override or does the summoning rule apply even if the rule is on setup. Kind of think the rule will be changed to on setup before the battle and when using the Dissapear from sight ability.

 

though as another point out the summoning rule says MUST be setup within range of slaan/bearer and the skink ability is you may instead setup . I don’t know that instead overrides the Must phrase.

Understood but battleplans are not core rules either.  They also say must. 

"Warscrolls rule" is probably how I'd rule it 

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16 hours ago, Vextol said:

Understood but battleplans are not core rules either.  They also say must. 

In case of Battleplans, it is actually a corerule.

The corerule sets something like an Interface, every Battleplan is using on Page 11 of the core Rules.

Quote

SET-UP
Each battleplan includes a
map that shows where each side
can set up the models in their army
(called the army’s territory), and
will list any restrictions that apply to
setting up.

So the corerules say, there is a point set-up and the battleplan says what to do, during set-up (down below is the example for First Blood).

Quote

SET-UP
The players roll off, and the winner
decides which territory each side will
use. The territories are shown on the
map below.
The players then alternate setting
up units one at a time, starting
with the player that won the rolloff
to determine territories. Units
must be set up wholly within their
own territory, more than 12" from
enemy territory.
Continue to set up units until both
players have set up their armies. If
one player finishes first, the opposing
player sets up the rest of the units in
their army, one after another.

So the Battleplan Set-Up rule, doesn't override corerules, it specifies the corerules (so it's the corerule for the specific battleplan).

But Abilities like Chamelion Ambush, is overriding the Set-up, when used, and uses his own ability instead,a s well as the summoning ability overrides the battleplans set-up and uses his own set-up rules instead.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but those arguing against this working aren't saying the Ambush rules doesn't override certain things, like the GENERAL set-up rules, what they're saying is one Warscroll rule doesn't override another.  It is accepted that Warscroll rules should be the first line of defense, but that doesn't mean they can contradict/overrule ANOTHER Warscroll.  That in mind, theoretically speaking the Ambush rule can't override the summoning rule on a different Warscroll.

The issue with battleplans and their set-up rules I think people are trying to explain that the core set-up rule applies to any game set-up, but not if it conflicts with a Warscroll.  There might only be one core rule battle plan, but "Set-up" itself is a core rule that applies even in non-core battleplans.  I'm not sure if there are other similar interactions, that might be why it seems this one should work.  But I can't think of anything else that is summoned that can also be "set-up" somewhere else.

As an aside, Vextol, you are right about the Stormcast Shock and Awe ability.  Any set-up triggers it...however there's not another condition that needs to be met.  If it said "Subtract 1 from hit rolls that target friendly Stormcast Eternals units that were set up on the battlefield from the celestial realm (or 'using the Scions of the Storm ability') during the same turn" then the Aquilor wouldn't work.  Since that extra condition isn't there, ANY set-up meets the criteria. 

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5 hours ago, EMMachine said:

In case of Battleplans, it is actually a corerule.

The corerule sets something like an Interface, every Battleplan is using on Page 11 of the core Rules.

So the corerules say, there is a point set-up and the battleplan says what to do, during set-up (down below is the example for First Blood).

Well, just because something stems from a core rule doesn't imply that it is a core rule.  If that were the case, every warscroll would be a core rule because the core rules do in fact reference warscrolls.  I understand where you're going but it's based on the idea that "setup" is strictly a pregame terminology, which it isn't.  GW clarified in the FAQ that setup is a term used for any point in which a model gets put on the field.  This happens in any way possible, not just at the beginning of the game.

1 hour ago, FPC said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those arguing against this working aren't saying the Ambush rules doesn't override certain things, like the GENERAL set-up rules, what they're saying is one Warscroll rule doesn't override another.  It is accepted that Warscroll rules should be the first line of defense, but that doesn't mean they can contradict/overrule ANOTHER Warscroll.  That in mind, theoretically speaking the Ambush rule can't override the summoning rule on a different Warscroll.

This is part of the problem.  There is no Warscroll being overruled.  The summoning and teleporting of Seraphon is an allegiance ability.  The chameleon skinks aren't overruling any other warscroll (which can also happen I'm pretty sure-I think that this issue goes to whoever's turn it is??) they are overruling an allegiance ability.

1 hour ago, FPC said:

As an aside, Vextol, you are right about the Stormcast Shock and Awe ability.  Any set-up triggers it...however there's not another condition that needs to be met.  If it said "Subtract 1 from hit rolls that target friendly Stormcast Eternals units that were set up on the battlefield from the celestial realm (or 'using the Scions of the Storm ability') during the same turn" then the Aquilor wouldn't work.  Since that extra condition isn't there, ANY set-up meets the criteria. 

That was my logic.  The chameleon skins also don't reference anything that indicates a "time" in which their ability occurs, just "setup".  Same as the stromcast.  If it said "at the beginning of the game" that would be a different story.  Whether this was the intent is yet to be determined but purely from a current reading of the rules and similar wording elsewhere, I am still in camp "hide when teleporting".

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3 minutes ago, Vextol said:

This is part of the problem.  There is no Warscroll being overruled.  The summoning and teleporting of Seraphon is an allegiance ability.  The chameleon skinks aren't overruling any other warscroll (which can also happen I'm pretty sure-I think that this issue goes to whoever's turn it is??) they are overruling an allegiance ability.

Oh.  I don't play Seraphon I thought someone had quoted an Astrolith Bearer Warscroll or some other unit.

I still fall on the other side tho.  I don't think you can summon a unit without meeting all of the conditions to summoning.  For example, I play against Death a lot, and their summoning rule to bring back a unit near a grave site doesn't work if you can't fit every model within X" (I think 6) and 9" away from the enemy.  In the case of summoning in Seraphon, I still don't think one Warscroll overrides an otherwise conditional rule.  Like I said with Stormcast, there is no other condition to be met other than set-up.  But in the case of the Skinks I think because it's two rules interacting, all conditions still have to be met.

I'd offer this as well.  Say whichever unit summons in Seraphon (Astrolith?), they're completely surrounded by enemies.  You can't meet the condition to place a unit within X", thus you can't summon (even if you have the necessary resources, I'm not familiar with what that is in Seraphon).  It would seem strange that the Chameleon Skinks can be summoned further away.  Their ability doesn't impact the summoners need to bring them in close.

However, unless this is clarified, the best way to handle it is to discuss with opponent (or TO if that's relevant).  I don't know how good Chameleon Skinks are, but this doesn't seem like an issue that will shake AoS to its core.

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2 hours ago, FPC said:

It is accepted that Warscroll rules should be the first line of defense, but that doesn't mean they can contradict/overrule ANOTHER Warscroll.  

Skarbrand vs. Morathi. Skarbrand's 8 damage overrides Morathi's 3-damage-per-turn limit. Warscroll beats warscroll on a case-by-case basis.

I know it's only tangentially related to the question at hand, but it's important to the greater discussion here.

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Does the core rules commentary not cover this? (pg.6)

Quote

 

Q: If several abilities are triggered at the same time (at the start of a hero phase, for example), how do you determine the order in which they are used?

A: If several abilities can be used at the same time, the player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities first, one after the other, in any order they desire; then the player whose turn is not taking place uses their abilities, one after another, in any order they desire.

 

Both would apply at the set-up step?

Edited by stato
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