Chameleon skinks summoning

[adamtrunzo]

Rules question: if I summon a unit of chameleon skinks, can they set up in ambush right away?  If so, can they deploy from ambush right away as well?

[stato]

Does the core rules commentary not cover this? (pg.6)

Quote

 

Q: If several abilities are triggered at the same time (at the start of a hero phase, for example), how do you determine the order in which they are used?

A: If several abilities can be used at the same time, the player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities first, one after the other, in any order they desire; then the player whose turn is not taking place uses their abilities, one after another, in any order they desire.

 

Both would apply at the set-up step?

[King Taloren]

On 11/24/2018 at 10:49 AM, Vextol said:

So is the stormcast ability, shock and awe.  It's directly under scions of the storm, their ability allowing them to be placed off the board.    

Shock and awe basically says when a stormcast model is setup on the battlefield, enemies subtract 1 from hit rolls against them that turn.

 Again, very specifically worded as  "setup on the battlefield".  I would argue strongly that Lord aquilor would trigger this when he teleports vanguard units.  It's basically the same thing. 

The argument that "the unit  doesn't exist" doesn't really hold up.  Coming  into existence triggers all the abilities, the same as coming into existence on placement would.  "Instead of setting up" HAS to occur before setup otherwise it would never trigger.  I'd call it top of the stack. 

It's a really good question regardless.

Well my point out was more directed over that warscroll override core rules but not necessarily other allegiance abilities. Summoning states has to be set up in range of a Slaan or Bearer and summoning isn’t a core rule so does the skinks rule override or does the summoning rule apply even if the rule is on setup. Kind of think the rule will be changed to on setup before the battle and when using the Dissapear from sight ability.

 

though as another point out the summoning rule says MUST be setup within range of slaan/bearer and the skink ability is you may instead setup . I don’t know that instead overrides the Must phrase.

[Vextol]

2 hours ago, King Taloren said:

Well my point out was more directed over that warscroll override core rules but not necessarily other allegiance abilities. Summoning states has to be set up in range of a Slaan or Bearer and summoning isn’t a core rule so does the skinks rule override or does the summoning rule apply even if the rule is on setup. Kind of think the rule will be changed to on setup before the battle and when using the Dissapear from sight ability.

 

though as another point out the summoning rule says MUST be setup within range of slaan/bearer and the skink ability is you may instead setup . I don’t know that instead overrides the Must phrase.

Understood but battleplans are not core rules either.  They also say must. 

"Warscrolls rule" is probably how I'd rule it 

[EMMachine]

16 hours ago, Vextol said:

Understood but battleplans are not core rules either.  They also say must. 

In case of Battleplans, it is actually a corerule.

The corerule sets something like an Interface, every Battleplan is using on Page 11 of the core Rules.

Quote

SET-UP
Each battleplan includes a
map that shows where each side
can set up the models in their army
(called the army’s territory), and
will list any restrictions that apply to
setting up.

So the corerules say, there is a point set-up and the battleplan says what to do, during set-up (down below is the example for First Blood).

Quote

SET-UP
The players roll off, and the winner
decides which territory each side will
use. The territories are shown on the
map below.
The players then alternate setting
up units one at a time, starting
with the player that won the rolloff
to determine territories. Units
must be set up wholly within their
own territory, more than 12" from
enemy territory.
Continue to set up units until both
players have set up their armies. If
one player finishes first, the opposing
player sets up the rest of the units in
their army, one after another.

So the Battleplan Set-Up rule, doesn't override corerules, it specifies the corerules (so it's the corerule for the specific battleplan).

But Abilities like Chamelion Ambush, is overriding the Set-up, when used, and uses his own ability instead,a s well as the summoning ability overrides the battleplans set-up and uses his own set-up rules instead.

[FPC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those arguing against this working aren't saying the Ambush rules doesn't override certain things, like the GENERAL set-up rules, what they're saying is one Warscroll rule doesn't override another.  It is accepted that Warscroll rules should be the first line of defense, but that doesn't mean they can contradict/overrule ANOTHER Warscroll.  That in mind, theoretically speaking the Ambush rule can't override the summoning rule on a different Warscroll.

The issue with battleplans and their set-up rules I think people are trying to explain that the core set-up rule applies to any game set-up, but not if it conflicts with a Warscroll.  There might only be one core rule battle plan, but "Set-up" itself is a core rule that applies even in non-core battleplans.  I'm not sure if there are other similar interactions, that might be why it seems this one should work.  But I can't think of anything else that is summoned that can also be "set-up" somewhere else.

As an aside, Vextol, you are right about the Stormcast Shock and Awe ability.  Any set-up triggers it...however there's not another condition that needs to be met.  If it said "Subtract 1 from hit rolls that target friendly Stormcast Eternals units that were set up on the battlefield from the celestial realm (or 'using the Scions of the Storm ability') during the same turn" then the Aquilor wouldn't work.  Since that extra condition isn't there, ANY set-up meets the criteria. 

[Vextol]

5 hours ago, EMMachine said:

In case of Battleplans, it is actually a corerule.

The corerule sets something like an Interface, every Battleplan is using on Page 11 of the core Rules.

So the corerules say, there is a point set-up and the battleplan says what to do, during set-up (down below is the example for First Blood).

Well, just because something stems from a core rule doesn't imply that it is a core rule.  If that were the case, every warscroll would be a core rule because the core rules do in fact reference warscrolls.  I understand where you're going but it's based on the idea that "setup" is strictly a pregame terminology, which it isn't.  GW clarified in the FAQ that setup is a term used for any point in which a model gets put on the field.  This happens in any way possible, not just at the beginning of the game.

1 hour ago, FPC said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those arguing against this working aren't saying the Ambush rules doesn't override certain things, like the GENERAL set-up rules, what they're saying is one Warscroll rule doesn't override another.  It is accepted that Warscroll rules should be the first line of defense, but that doesn't mean they can contradict/overrule ANOTHER Warscroll.  That in mind, theoretically speaking the Ambush rule can't override the summoning rule on a different Warscroll.

This is part of the problem.  There is no Warscroll being overruled.  The summoning and teleporting of Seraphon is an allegiance ability.  The chameleon skinks aren't overruling any other warscroll (which can also happen I'm pretty sure-I think that this issue goes to whoever's turn it is??) they are overruling an allegiance ability.

1 hour ago, FPC said:

As an aside, Vextol, you are right about the Stormcast Shock and Awe ability.  Any set-up triggers it...however there's not another condition that needs to be met.  If it said "Subtract 1 from hit rolls that target friendly Stormcast Eternals units that were set up on the battlefield from the celestial realm (or 'using the Scions of the Storm ability') during the same turn" then the Aquilor wouldn't work.  Since that extra condition isn't there, ANY set-up meets the criteria. 

That was my logic.  The chameleon skins also don't reference anything that indicates a "time" in which their ability occurs, just "setup".  Same as the stromcast.  If it said "at the beginning of the game" that would be a different story.  Whether this was the intent is yet to be determined but purely from a current reading of the rules and similar wording elsewhere, I am still in camp "hide when teleporting".

[FPC]

3 minutes ago, Vextol said:

This is part of the problem.  There is no Warscroll being overruled.  The summoning and teleporting of Seraphon is an allegiance ability.  The chameleon skinks aren't overruling any other warscroll (which can also happen I'm pretty sure-I think that this issue goes to whoever's turn it is??) they are overruling an allegiance ability.

Oh.  I don't play Seraphon I thought someone had quoted an Astrolith Bearer Warscroll or some other unit.

I still fall on the other side tho.  I don't think you can summon a unit without meeting all of the conditions to summoning.  For example, I play against Death a lot, and their summoning rule to bring back a unit near a grave site doesn't work if you can't fit every model within X" (I think 6) and 9" away from the enemy.  In the case of summoning in Seraphon, I still don't think one Warscroll overrides an otherwise conditional rule.  Like I said with Stormcast, there is no other condition to be met other than set-up.  But in the case of the Skinks I think because it's two rules interacting, all conditions still have to be met.

I'd offer this as well.  Say whichever unit summons in Seraphon (Astrolith?), they're completely surrounded by enemies.  You can't meet the condition to place a unit within X", thus you can't summon (even if you have the necessary resources, I'm not familiar with what that is in Seraphon).  It would seem strange that the Chameleon Skinks can be summoned further away.  Their ability doesn't impact the summoners need to bring them in close.

However, unless this is clarified, the best way to handle it is to discuss with opponent (or TO if that's relevant).  I don't know how good Chameleon Skinks are, but this doesn't seem like an issue that will shake AoS to its core.

[rokapoke]

2 hours ago, FPC said:

It is accepted that Warscroll rules should be the first line of defense, but that doesn't mean they can contradict/overrule ANOTHER Warscroll.  

Skarbrand vs. Morathi. Skarbrand's 8 damage overrides Morathi's 3-damage-per-turn limit. Warscroll beats warscroll on a case-by-case basis.

I know it's only tangentially related to the question at hand, but it's important to the greater discussion here.

[FPC]

Yea again I’m not too familiar with stuff outside what factions I play. Entirely possible but I’d err on the side of caution.

[Vextol]

1 hour ago, King Taloren said:

Would like to point out that summoning is not a core rule. It is an allegiance ability. That might change some thinking about this discussion 

So is the stormcast ability, shock and awe.  It's directly under scions of the storm, their ability allowing them to be placed off the board.    

Shock and awe basically says when a stormcast model is setup on the battlefield, enemies subtract 1 from hit rolls against them that turn.

 Again, very specifically worded as  "setup on the battlefield".  I would argue strongly that Lord aquilor would trigger this when he teleports vanguard units.  It's basically the same thing. 

The argument that "the unit  doesn't exist" doesn't really hold up.  Coming  into existence triggers all the abilities, the same as coming into existence on placement would.  "Instead of setting up" HAS to occur before setup otherwise it would never trigger.  I'd call it top of the stack. 

It's a really good question regardless.

[Vextol]

31 minutes ago, FPC said:

I still fall on the other side tho.  I don't think you can summon a unit without meeting all of the conditions to summoning.  For example, I play against Death a lot, and their summoning rule to bring back a unit near a grave site doesn't work if you can't fit every model within X" (I think 6) and 9" away from the enemy.  In the case of summoning in Seraphon, I still don't think one Warscroll overrides an otherwise conditional rule.

Well, that's a funny point.  If tomb kings were still a thing and the tomb scorpions were included in the summon-able units, I'd rule the same as the chameleon skinks and allow the scorpions to be setup off the field and bypass the summoning requirement.  😆

34 minutes ago, FPC said:

I'd offer this as well.  Say whichever unit summons in Seraphon (Astrolith?), they're completely surrounded by enemies.  You can't meet the condition to place a unit within X", thus you can't summon (even if you have the necessary resources, I'm not familiar with what that is in Seraphon).  It would seem strange that the Chameleon Skinks can be summoned further away.  Their ability doesn't impact the summoners need to bring them in close.

This is true, but again, chameleon skinks break EVERY rule.  They can also be summoned into combat and they're small so they can fit in weird places.   This whole unit is about breaking the rules.  I agree in every other setting.  For sure, I can't put just any unit down that violates the rule because that would be ridiculous.  But it isn't about that.  It's about one unit that's whole design is to do things other units can't.  Is it strange that they must be summoned in range but they don't have to listen to that requirement? Yes.  But that's precisely what they do. 

39 minutes ago, FPC said:

However, unless this is clarified, the best way to handle it is to discuss with opponent (or TO if that's relevant).  I don't know how good Chameleon Skinks are, but this doesn't seem like an issue that will shake AoS to its core.

Always.  And while my track record on rule clarification guesses is pretty good so far, I have a sick feeling in my gut that this particular one would rule against my opinion.  I really hope that if they do clarify it (they probably won't) they go my way but they love to poo on Seraphon so they will probably go the other. 

Also Chameleon skinks are the definition of extremes in my experience.  Absolutely unbelievably terrible or completely game breaking-ly awesome.

[FPC]

16 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Is it strange that they must be summoned in range but they don't have to listen to that requirement? Yes.  But that's precisely what they do. 

Well, I guess agree to disagree here. Barring clarification of course.  I don't think GW intends for units to break rules, but rather bend them.  This to me is more of an egregious break rather than a bend (by that I mean it's blatantly breaking an otherwise clear rule that other things don't bend or break).  It seems (again I don't know them well) that the Skinks already circumvent a lot of rules and can do a lot of wacky things.  Whether or not this is just another one, or an unintended consequences of the simultaneous edition switch and summon rule change is beyond player discussion.  

In my thinking, logic suggests you ask yourself 2 questions as you summon:  A) do I have the resource necessary to summon a unit?  B) can I meet all of the conditions laid out in the summoning rules?  If the answer to either is "no", you can't summon.  You couldn't argue that the Skinks are set up within X" and then go into hiding.  If you can't meet the conditions of the summoning rule, you can't summon.  Plain and simple to me.

[Vextol]

54 minutes ago, FPC said:

In my thinking, logic suggests you ask yourself 2 questions as you summon:  A) do I have the resource necessary to summon a unit?  B) can I meet all of the conditions laid out in the summoning rules?  If the answer to either is "no", you can't summon.  You couldn't argue that the Skinks are set up within X" and then go into hiding.  If you can't meet the conditions of the summoning rule, you can't summon.  Plain and simple to me.

This will be my last word 😄 but they already do precisely that.  You don't set them up on the field and then remove them.  You bypass setup requirements (which I'll point out include more than 9 inches away for *almost* every other unit in the game EXCEPT skinks *and none that I know of that put you in combat*).  Their "setup" is different than other units and supercedes the expected setup conditions.

The answer to B) is yes.  I do meet the conditions.  I am setting them up within the guidelines of what their unit defines as legal setup just like every other situation would be for them.  They aren't changing the rules for summoning, they are redefining what setup means to their particular unit, which includes off the board/wherever you want, including within 9 inches.

I think it would be out of place to say their special rules for setup only work occasionally especially when GW themselves have defined "setup" as any setup.

Agree to disagree it appears!

*Edits

[FPC]

13 minutes ago, Vextol said:

their special rules for setup only work occasionally

Removing one possibly uncommon use of their setup ability would hardly make them use their setup mechanic occasionally.  As a non Seraphon player I feel like summoning them is already rare so it shouldn't matter THAT much.  For the sake of argument I think either interpretation has its merit, but having played GW games for over 20 years I just don't see this one exception being valid.  If I'm wrong so be it.  But I'm not sure there's much clamor for clarification on this in the Seraphon community, but I don't know.  I don't see it winning tournaments for them, so, like I said, err on the side of caution and check with TO or opponent.

Also note that there are other setup abilities that aren't 9" away.  Stormcast Vanguard can set up within 7".  Minor but it is elsewhere.  Personally I'd take the summon rule literally, and B) would still be "no" because the condition/question isn't "is the unit being 'set up'", the question is "is the unit being 'set up' wholly within 12""

[tokek]

Pretty much every statement I can find anywhere on setting up a unit states where it must be deployed - e.g in the battleplans in GHB 2018. The Chameleon Skink deployment rule has to be able to supercede those statements of where a unit must be deployed or else the rule does nothing at all, ever. So on the first part I would say it is clear that the ability keys off the words set up and as the summoning rule has the words  set up  the ability can trigger and then functions just as described - they are in hiding instead of being where a normal unit would have to be. 

I am afraid I really do not see what people are getting at when trying to state that the word must in the summoning text is somehow different to the word must in the instructions for set up in the battleplans. It is the same word in the same context - restricting where a unit can be set up. Chameleon skinks can bypass that instruction on where to set up with Chameleon Ambush because that is exactly what the rule says they can do. The obvious exception is Total Commitment, I can see a strong case that the rule on no reserves should still apply because this is still a set up and therefore putting them into Chameleon Ambush would see them destroyed.  Summoning has no such clause in its wording forbidding units to be set up in reserve..

The second part of the question is a no; the sequence of events does not make that possible at all.  You are at the end of the movement phase therefore cannot now do anything that would take place during the movement phase.

[Sedraxis]

3 hours ago, tokek said:

Pretty much every statement I can find anywhere on setting up a unit states where it must be deployed - e.g in the battleplans in GHB 2018. The Chameleon Skink deployment rule has to be able to supercede those statements of where a unit must be deployed or else the rule does nothing at all, ever. So on the first part I would say it is clear that the ability keys off the words set up and as the summoning rule has the words  set up  the ability can trigger and then functions just as described - they are in hiding instead of being where a normal unit would have to be. 

I am afraid I really do not see what people are getting at when trying to state that the word must in the summoning text is somehow different to the word must in the instructions for set up in the battleplans. It is the same word in the same context - restricting where a unit can be set up. Chameleon skinks can bypass that instruction on where to set up with Chameleon Ambush because that is exactly what the rule says they can do. The obvious exception is Total Commitment, I can see a strong case that the rule on no reserves should still apply because this is still a set up and therefore putting them into Chameleon Ambush would see them destroyed.  Summoning has no such clause in its wording forbidding units to be set up in reserve.

By this logic a LEGION OF NIGHT unit can set up a unit in ambush with Ageless Cunning right after resurrecting it with Endless Minions, or even pop it out of another grave with The Unquited Dead's ability.

I'm pretty sure the restrictions of abilities can't be overwritten this way.

[Aelfric]

9 hours ago, FPC said:

  I don't think you can summon a unit without meeting all of the conditions to summoning

The text reads "Summoned units must be set up ...".  The set-up is not part of the summoning as "summoned" is past tense, simply the the requirements for placing them on the battlefield once summoned.   Chameleon Skinks have a Warscroll ability that grants an alternative to setting up, whereas the summoning ability gives the requirements for setting up.  Therefore, you can choose to either set-up, in which case you follow the requirements laid down by the summoning rules, or you can use "Chameleon Ambush" if you choose not to set them up.  "Chameleon Ambush" is an alternative, not a contradiction.

 I would also agree that as summoning occurs at the end of the movement phase, they could only be set up on the battlefield in the following movement phase.

[XReN]

As FAQed today - you can't set them up in hiding

[EMMachine]

3 hours ago, Isotop said:

I do not see how your quote from the core rules supports either of our positions. Could you help me understand the connection here?

The quote on the core rules handles both the rules for Summoning as well as for Chamelion Ambush, so they can override the rules of the Battleplan (must be set up within x of the own territory).

But Chamelion Ambush doesn't override the summoning condition that the unit has to be in range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer.

If this should be it would say something like that:"you can put this unit in ambush even when this unit is summoned".

which is not the case.

[rokapoke]

I would think that you could use the ambush to set them up off the table - the rule states “instead of setting them up on the battlefield.” However, the summoning happens at the end of the movement phase, so I don’t think you can immediately set them up anywhere — that has to happen in one of your movement phases. 

[BaldoBeardo]

I'd say no, as the summoning ability states they *must* be set up within range of the Slann or an Astrolith bearer.

One ability gives you an option, the other is an absolute.

[King Taloren]

Hmm yeah I say you can’t do that in summoninG since it specific about where the summoning happens

[rokapoke]

10 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

I'd say no, as the summoning ability states they *must* be set up within range of the Slann or an Astrolith bearer.

One ability gives you an option, the other is an absolute.

Note that the wording is similar to that in battleplans, though. For example, "First Blood" from the Core Rules (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf) -->

" Units must be set up wholly within their own territory, more than 12" from enemy territory."

The wording there is also must. I would suggest that the ability on the warscroll (with its set aside option) overrides the summoning rule (and its "must" terminology).

Just my two cents. Or four, in this case, since I've weighed in twice.

 

[Isotop]

18 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

I'd say no, as the summoning ability states they *must* be set up within range of the Slann or an Astrolith bearer.

One ability gives you an option, the other is an absolute.

I am not agreeing with your reasoning (and @King Taloren) here since the "normal" deployment restrictions of battleplans use must as well. The most simple example is from  First Blood:

"The players then alternate setting up units one at a time, starting with the player that won the rolloff to determine territories. Units must be set up wholly within their own territory, more than 12" from enemy territory."

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 12)

I do not have a Generals Handbook in front of me but I am pretty sure every battleplan uses this kind of wording regarding deployment.

I suppose you would allow Chameleon Skinks to use their Ambush ability during "normal" deployment - so why would this not be applicable to summoned units? 

[EMMachine]

 

4 hours ago, Isotop said:

I suppose you would allow Chameleon Skinks to use their Ambush ability during "normal" deployment - so why would this not be applicable to summoned units? 

The Chamelion Ambush rule is handles in the core rules through the rules.

Quote

SET UP ARMIES
Details of how the armies should be
set up can be found in the battleplan
you are using.
Sometimes an ability will allow a
unit to be set up in a location other
than the battlefield; when this is
the case, tell your opponent where
the unit is set up and keep it to one
side rather than placing it directly
on the battlefield. It will arrive later
as a reserve unit as described on
the right.

So they don't have to follow the rules of the battleplan instead following the rules of the warscroll and using the rules for Reserves

Summoning itself is also a Special Rule like Chamelion Ambush rule with the difference that the unit didn't exist at the start of the battle and forces the player to set the unit within the range of the Slaan or Astrolith Bearer, and a unit that isn't on the field is not in range so it is a illigal move.

The only thing that is possible, is summoning the unit, and during your next hero phase use Disappear from Sight and use the Chamelion Ambush in the next movement phase.