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AoS Timeline interesting observation


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So this has some spoilers from Heart of Winter Novella so DON'T read if you don't want some spoilers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So in the story we encounter the city of Izalend, a city which rises up along the coastline and is protected by a wall of fire that is "twice the height of a sailed ship*" and fuelled by magical towers that rise up in a mighty ring around the city. With only one main seaboard entrance which is lined with cannon and guards as well as a tight walled channel for ships to float down. 

Now what's interesting is that this wall of flame is described as being extinguished during the Age of Chaos and was only sparked to life once Sigmar and his Stormcast returned to the lands to bring a spark to relight it. Furthermore the city within the wall of fire was destroyed during the Chaos Age. So the large and mighty city as it is now is built well after the return of Sigmar and his warriors. Indeed one character (who is approaching retirement and is human) speaks of how it was the city he grew up within. So we are certainly looking at a city that might be at least around 100 years old if not more since the beginning of the Age of Sigmar. 

It's interesting to me as the other novella, Warqueen, speaks of how the warriors of Sigmar are hardly known in their region of the world and how they are more recent thing walking the land. Indeed most of the novels thus far have been carrying that air of the Age of Sigmar only having "just" gotten started. So this little novella might be one of the most "recent" in the long trail of historical events and suggests that humans have rebuilt, in Sigmar's areas of rule, with a very fast pace. Now Realmgates, magic and the Realm of Sigmar might well have all conspired to help provide building materials and such to rebuild cities. Even so we are looking at a very fast rebuild, coupled to an advancing story that is now looking at having several generations under Sigmar's new Order. 

It's one story where I wish GW would give dates for their AoS stories, even rough years and a timeline so that we could at least see how the world is evolving; esp since the Realm system mean that stories that fill one realm might well have things advance far further than in other realms that might be stillburning with Chaos infection (and thus stories from them would feel like they were recent even if they are much later assaults by Sigmar and his allies) 

 

*A very rough value since there are bigger and smaller ships, but in general its likely twice as high as the tallest standard ship on the seas

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The setting for Shadows Under Hammerhal was long enough since the Realmgate Wars that the whole city had been built from nothing and interior districts like Cinderfall had fallen into disrepair, with whole generations having passed. I figure the Necroquake was roughly 2 centuries after the All Gates campaign, and the Realmgate Wars themselves lasted decades. Even the present day seems to be set decades after the Necroquake! 

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10 minutes ago, Captain Marius said:

The setting for Shadows Under Hammerhal was long enough since the Realmgate Wars that the whole city had been built from nothing and interior districts like Cinderfall had fallen into disrepair, with whole generations having passed. I figure the Necroquake was roughly 2 centuries after the All Gates campaign, and the Realmgate Wars themselves lasted decades. Even the present day seems to be set decades after the Necroquake! 

It's also been mentioned in a few of the novels that time passes at slightly different speeds in different realms (and sometimes in different parts of each realm). The days run faster in Aqshy than in Ghyran, for instance, and time passes with inexorable slowness in Shyish - save in those places where it goes too fast. 

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I see no reason why the two stories can’t take place hundreds of years apart or at exactly the same moment. It’s not like Sigmars counter attack hit every part of every Realm simultaneously. It’s completely natural that while some parts of the Realms have been liberated, other parts would have no knowledge that the “Age of Sigmar” was even a thing. 

I like it that way too, it gives people the flexibility to tell whatever story they want.

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3 hours ago, JReynolds said:

It's also been mentioned in a few of the novels that time passes at slightly different speeds in different realms (and sometimes in different parts of each realm). The days run faster in Aqshy than in Ghyran, for instance, and time passes with inexorable slowness in Shyish - save in those places where it goes too fast. 

This can be taken in one of two ways

1) That time itself passes at the same speed, but different realms have a different day/night cycle speed. A day might be longer in one realm than another, but the seconds still line up.  Ergo you couldn't jump into one realm and age "faster" than in another at a physical level. 

2) Time itself has been messed with and some realms are faster or slower than others. This is far more complicated and, whilst possible (certainly under chaos) its less likely to be the case as it would make inter-realm relations very hard to manage. How could you ship goods or even armies from realm to realm if one realm was a few years ahead. 

 

In my view its 1; that the realms have different standards of time, much like planets orbiting the sun. Mars might have shorter years because it takes less time to go around the sun, but time still passes at the same rate be it if you are on Mars or Earth 

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3 hours ago, Overread said:

This can be taken in one of two ways

1) That time itself passes at the same speed, but different realms have a different day/night cycle speed. A day might be longer in one realm than another, but the seconds still line up.  Ergo you couldn't jump into one realm and age "faster" than in another at a physical level. 

2) Time itself has been messed with and some realms are faster or slower than others. This is far more complicated and, whilst possible (certainly under chaos) its less likely to be the case as it would make inter-realm relations very hard to manage. How could you ship goods or even armies from realm to realm if one realm was a few years ahead. 

 

In my view its 1; that the realms have different standards of time, much like planets orbiting the sun. Mars might have shorter years because it takes less time to go around the sun, but time still passes at the same rate be it if you are on Mars or Earth 

Option 2 is correct.


(Warning: Minor Spoilers for Realm Slayer below)

In Realm Slayer Gotrek et al. take a "shortcut" through Shyish to get ahead of a Chaos Army. They wander around in the Realm of the Dead for weeks, but because of the time difference they still get to their destination before they would have done if they had stayed in Aqshy and double timed to catch up. Despite the fact that they would have, personally, experienced fewer days had they done so. "Wibbly wobbly timey wimey" and all that!

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40 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

Option 2 is correct.


(Warning: Minor Spoilers for Realm Slayer below)

In Realm Slayer Gotrek et al. take a "shortcut" through Shyish to get ahead of a Chaos Army. They wander around in the Realm of the Dead for weeks, but because of the time difference they still get to their destination before they would have done if they had stayed in Aqshy and double timed to catch up. Despite the fact that they would have, personally, experienced fewer days had they done so. "Wibbly wobbly timey wimey" and all that!

I also assume theres dangers in crossing realms like 40k warp travel? You need a nice stable Realm Gate otherwise you could enter the in-between chaos realms or something and get eaten by daemons or simply lost without a gate.

Also didn't even WFB have this to a lesser extent with their Realm of Chaos? I think there was fluff to the uncertainty of where in time many chaos Lords were on (or at least Archaon)

 

 

I think though there is a point to the fluid time, I think it helps people make whatever armies they want without really worrying about continuity errors. Compare that to WFB that had a very hard timeline where many special characters were confirmed dead by a particular time (like Gorthor the Beastlord or Gorbad Ironclaw)

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1 hour ago, EccentricCircle said:

Option 2 is correct.


(Warning: Minor Spoilers for Realm Slayer below)

In Realm Slayer Gotrek et al. take a "shortcut" through Shyish to get ahead of a Chaos Army. They wander around in the Realm of the Dead for weeks, but because of the time difference they still get to their destination before they would have done if they had stayed in Aqshy and double timed to catch up. Despite the fact that they would have, personally, experienced fewer days had they done so. "Wibbly wobbly timey wimey" and all that!

I wonder if its only one or two specific realms with that effect, otherwise its going to bite GW hard with the lore when there might be hundreds of years difference between realms in time and lead to all kinds of unnecessary confusion in the lore. 

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16 hours ago, Overread said:

I wonder if its only one or two specific realms with that effect, otherwise its going to bite GW hard with the lore when there might be hundreds of years difference between realms in time and lead to all kinds of unnecessary confusion in the lore. 

I imagine thats why they dont use dates in the timelines, as this very thing happened in 40k (Guilliman discovered the dating system was inaccurate, keeping the setting in the 41st millennium... or is it!? 😁 )

I like the flexibility this brings to the narrative, when you have stuff like the Chronomantic Cogs appearing on the battlefield, theres no point worrying if time is relative - in AoS, its not!

I still want to know whats going on with Orb Infernia since it got zapped with the Chronomatic Cannon in Malign Portents, bringing back Xen'Phantica and the daemon princes Mighty Lord Khul has already killed once!

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10 minutes ago, Captain Marius said:

I still want to know whats going on with Orb Infernia since it got zapped with the Chronomatic Cannon in Malign Portents, bringing back Xen'Phantica and the daemon princes Mighty Lord Khul has already killed once!

Yeah, it's really interesting. Did it make Khorne angry, because Xen'Phantica's skull dissapeared from his Throne or make him happy, because he can have two copies now. :) 

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True there are spells like the Cogs, but then again those kind of things are localised timeshifts. Very specific and short term so they can work within a normal dating system by and large because they are not typically going to do anything beyond a small area of a battlefield (except in unique situations which would be rare).

 

For me its more about trying to build a mental picture of the setting. This is FAR easier when one can get a rough idea of the layout of the geography of the realms and then also the span of time and events. Knowing which stories come before and after which others, even if the stories have no relation or impact on each other at all. It lets one see how events unfold and play out and lets you see shifts in political stances, territories, kingdoms rising and falling etc.... Basically whilst wibbly wobbly time is supercool its also near impossible for most people to mentally visualise beyond a basic level. Plus we could end up rather like Dr Who in that there are so many random cross overs and stories that counter and clash each other that you end up with a very big lore that makes no actual sense, which rather than deepening actually makes the lore incredibly shallow. 

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I always just imagined that, as the further away from the centre of the realm the magic becomes more unstable, that gates etc near there were equally so. Logic being, if there's any at all, that both realm and part of realm would affect time. 

The city that is connected via a gate between Aqshy and Ghyran (is it Hammerhal?) must operate on the time pretty much, and I just assumed that would be because they're stable areas of their particular realms, and/or those realms are more stable full stop. 

I also imagined that Shyish, Hysh and Ulgu were far more unstable in terms of time, magic and perception of. The dead are OK in Shyish, Aelves in Ulgu and Hysh, but not so much other races? Manipulation of magic etc being an important factor.

I hoped to see more about Ulgu and Hysh in the new Core book, but it didn't unfortunately. 

@Overreaddo you recommend the book? It's about a Corsair isn't it? I'm all about that if so! 

/edit completely missed @JReynoldspost on time! Doh. 

Edited by syph0n
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On 11/20/2018 at 9:10 AM, JReynolds said:

It's also been mentioned in a few of the novels that time passes at slightly different speeds in different realms (and sometimes in different parts of each realm). The days run faster in Aqshy than in Ghyran, for instance, and time passes with inexorable slowness in Shyish - save in those places where it goes too fast. 

Seems like a way to keep "your guys" alive through the different major events, which are supposed to be separated by centuries. 

Edited by Jator
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Much as I love detailed timelines and well thought out histories, I can absolutely see why they are making it all a bit more flexible.

I can see where some posters are coming from, saying that it has the potential to make everything more complicated, and end up a mess. However, the thing is, thats only the case if you care about keeping things on track and consistent. By making time relative they are basically saying that they don't want to worry about that, and that (Like Doctor Who) It just doesn't matter in this setting. Things may conflict, or change, time may run at different rates, and the magic that sustains the realms gives them the wriggle room to have it all broadly still make sense so long as you don't interrogate it too closely.

In some ways they've already been doing this in 40K, since warp travel can affect time, and date systems and record keeping are different in different places in the imperium. In a Rogue Trader Game, my navigator once got the ship lost in the warp, we arrived at our destination 2 years later, and the guy we were supposed to be meeting had died. Stuff happens when you fly through the Realm of Chaos!

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@syph0n check my signature, last post in my blog is a short review of several of the Novella and yes I totally recommend the Heart of Winter! It gives a great look into not just the Scourge Privateers, but Dwarves, humans, Witch Aelves and Seraphon. 

@EccentricCircle thing is Dr Who is something most people enjoy for 30mins or so a week, but by and large every episode mostly stands on its own. It's a TV show built around "monster of the week" structure. Much  like how Power Rangers can destroy vast swathes of urban areas each week, the Dr. Who series gets away with its inconsistencies because of its very nature.

Warhammer games are different because of the way people interact. You've got armies where people are crafting their own mental lore about them; you've got multiple books and stories; you've got a central lore and structure that follows a story path; you've got multiple interacting character set across multiple factions and races and powers etc.... The beast that is AoS is far bigger so there has to be some common ground rules and concepts so that people can put it all together (mostly) into a single setting. That doesn't limit creativity, but expands upon it. Knowing that the events in one book take place before or after another is important because then (and only then) can you setup long story arcs. Even Dr. Who does that, it just keeps them mostly contained within one series in terms of its own internal story integrity. 

It's just like the maps, GW could get away never producing a single map, never fixing the geography of any realm. But in doing so people lose connection and relation to the story. 

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1 hour ago, Overread said:

@syph0n check my signature, last post in my blog is a short review of several of the Novella and yes I totally recommend the Heart of Winter! It gives a great look into not just the Scourge Privateers, but Dwarves, humans, Witch Aelves and Seraphon. 

@EccentricCircle thing is Dr Who is something most people enjoy for 30mins or so a week, but by and large every episode mostly stands on its own. It's a TV show built around "monster of the week" structure. Much  like how Power Rangers can destroy vast swathes of urban areas each week, the Dr. Who series gets away with its inconsistencies because of its very nature.

Warhammer games are different because of the way people interact. You've got armies where people are crafting their own mental lore about them; you've got multiple books and stories; you've got a central lore and structure that follows a story path; you've got multiple interacting character set across multiple factions and races and powers etc.... The beast that is AoS is far bigger so there has to be some common ground rules and concepts so that people can put it all together (mostly) into a single setting. That doesn't limit creativity, but expands upon it. Knowing that the events in one book take place before or after another is important because then (and only then) can you setup long story arcs. Even Dr. Who does that, it just keeps them mostly contained within one series in terms of its own internal story integrity. 

It's just like the maps, GW could get away never producing a single map, never fixing the geography of any realm. But in doing so people lose connection and relation to the story. 

Oh, I absolutely agree with you. When I do a world building project solid maps and timelines are the foundation of everything else. I found the initial "anything goes" take to AoS quite off putting. However, I can understand why the company doesn't want the overheads involved in maintaining consistency in their setting, particularly as they've been bitten by advancing timelines before on a couple of occasions. It will be interesting to see how the RPG handles it, as I feel that vaguely defined parameters are something which you can get away with in a wargame, where not everyone will be invested in the background. For an RPG, I think they at least need to encourage each GM to keep track of things with a bit more rigour, and provide some more solid guidelines for writing your story, or creating your setting within their broader umbrella.

 

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