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How to Beat Death - A Mega Podcast Episode


ianob
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Hey Guys

Yesterday we released this podcast episode - it's an episode on how to make us lose!

http://podcast.justplaygames.uk/how-to-beat-legions-of-nagash-insider-secrets-with-ian

As well as being an episode on beating us, though, it's also a big list of strength weaknesses that a Death player should be aware of, so it should be pretty educational.

I'm also interested in your thoughts if you've listened to the episode!

Cheers

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Haven’t gotten to listen to the podcast yet, but I don’t really think we’re that strong to smile into the nerf-hammer.

we‘re back scoring high, but others can bring cheese for the whine and there is nothing really unbalanced in our book.

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27 minutes ago, Honk said:

Haven’t gotten to listen to the podcast yet, but I don’t really think we’re that strong to smile into the nerf-hammer.

we‘re back scoring high, but others can bring cheese for the whine and there is nothing really unbalanced in our book.

Indeed. As shown in the thread that was started about changing how we get to summon models, our strength (due to slow movement and being built around surviving attrition) is in the late game which means we can be screwed by a savy opponent who knows how to seal our Gravesites and goes for our General pretty early on. Plus if they can wipe more than a unit a turn we can only really bring them back piecemeal instead of having a massive threat hitting all at once.

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I've pushed through the 2 and half hour long podcast. 90% of the podcast can be boiled down to, "People don't know how LoN works on the table so they should read the book." They go through all the major LoN models and what they do and some generalistic statements on what you could possibly do to counter them if the stars align. Its less of "Here's how to beat Death" and more "Here's how the units work." As a Death player the juicy material is in the last 23 min where they flip the script and talk about how death should deal with other popular armies. 

Walking away from listening to this actually makes me feel confident with Death right now. There are so much diversity in the units and what you can do that even if they nerf some of our key units somehow, LoN can still hold their own as a good high mid tier army by making an entirely new army as a worst case scenario. There is no single unit or ability that is making LoN crushing the meta right now (aside from cheese obviously which LoN is most certainly not) but a variety of things. It shows how well made the LoN book is and that its less of nerfing Death than for the meta to better figure out how to handle Death. 

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3 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

30Grimghast reaper, who can be summoned back for only 1cp?

I didn’t say we have no cheese...

But summoning suggests your general is still alive, what did those raptors do the last rounds?! Every capable opponent will focus down our key elements, before starting to work on our blobs.

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Listened to the show earlier this week :)

I think one of our biggest challenges currently is the perceived strength of Legions armies.  Our "thing" is resurrection and it's possible to build an army specifically around that style of play - gravesites, Deathly Invocation and Endless Legions etc.  Trouble is that it's unique to us, so the immediate reaction is that the mechanic needs nerfing because people aren't aware of quite how many limitations there are or how to prevent them.

I really like the inclusion of the nighthaunt bits, but I feel that perhaps Legions needs a different points costing for them in comparison to a pure Nighthaunt allegiance.  It would certainly help to balance out some of the units that have a better synergy with a Legions allegiance than without.

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2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I really like the inclusion of the nighthaunt bits, but I feel that perhaps Legions needs a different points costing for them in comparison to a pure Nighthaunt allegiance. 

It is a kinda sad thing, that they are supposed to be stronger as „allies“ as in their own book... 

since I don’t play competitive WAAC and am not sold on bedsheets at all, I cannot really say anything about them, but they don’t really look that scary strong in comparison to a .40 skelli block... they are a bit faster and always have a 5+, but skellis have way more attacks and get buffed more easily (diadem, lord of nagashizzar, wightking).

And as bait in a LoNight army, you place them into terrain and watch your opponents eyes pop, when you tell him about that 3+ save.

and as usual, kill the general, snipe the supporting heros and watch us shamble around and crumble. And if you get your 20 plaquebeares on the objectives first (because nurgle enlisted Usain Bolt as fitness coach) or some stupid dryads with extra save or seraphon teleport with rerolling everything, we‘re sorely pressed to claim objectives and score points.

Edited by Honk
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Having spent some time listening to the podcast, I wouldn't call it a  "how to beat Death" or even "how to beat a Legion of Nagash army" since it's so focused on a specific build involving Nagash. I mean there are definitely some points that apply to any legion in the book, but largely it's about maximizing your effectiveness for/against a GHoN list lead by Nagash that's tooled to be as min-maxed as possible.

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On 11/23/2018 at 10:30 AM, Fulkes said:

Having spent some time listening to the podcast, I wouldn't call it a  "how to beat Death" or even "how to beat a Legion of Nagash army" since it's so focused on a specific build involving Nagash. I mean there are definitely some points that apply to any legion in the book, but largely it's about maximizing your effectiveness for/against a GHoN list lead by Nagash that's tooled to be as min-maxed as possible.

Nagash isn't even that good, too

 

(Sorry for the double post. The site's phone format made me goof)

Edited by Jaxler
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1 hour ago, Jaxler said:

Nagash isn't even that good,

I‘d say it a third time to make it true... Nagash isn’t even that good!!!

800 points, just focus him down like any other 16hp, 3+ Monster and half my army is gone...

 

not sure why people seem to have trouble with the undead, my club surely is not devestated. They struggle some more than ghb17 but nothing broken. I really suppose a lot of salt comes from burned opponents, where some rules „mistake“ happened.

 

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People are having trouble with Nagash because they lack shooting to hit him with, don't focus on killing wizards that are in their range who are giving Nagash access to some of his support spells and generally enter an internal panic mode because "BIG THING, OH ******!" is a reaction that happens WAY too often to people in general.

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16 hours ago, Jaxler said:

Every army is OP if played competently, don't forget that.

You can be a pro race car driver and tie both hands behind your back. Sure you could probably still place decently but that doesn't mean its practical or makes sense. 

7 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

People are having trouble with Nagash because they lack shooting to hit him with, don't focus on killing wizards that are in their range who are giving Nagash access to some of his support spells and generally enter an internal panic mode because "BIG THING, OH ******!" is a reaction that happens WAY too often to people in general.

I guess that kind of goes hand-in-hand with the lack of shooting so far this edition. The lack of shooting makes armies with no shooting at all that much stronger. It certainly helps my skeleton bros. Sure I can only move 4 in but who cares they are coming to me anyway. I would love someone to complain about the size of models, "Please recast Nagash and make his current model illegal in matched play. He looks way to intimidating for me not to shoot at!"

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1 hour ago, CaptainSoup said:

He looks way to intimidating for me not to shoot at!"

I‘m always wondering why... here they target my generals down like it’s their business 😿

ballista, kunnin rukk, kurnoth, skyfires... the RAAAAGGGEEE!!!

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5 minutes ago, Honk said:

I‘m always wondering why... here they target my generals down like it’s their business 😿

ballista, kunnin rukk, kurnoth, skyfires... the RAAAAGGGEEE!!!

Most of our good generals have large models.

It's one of the reason that one of my army lists has multiple large models (A coven throne, Neferata, a Mortis Engine,) to help split their focus a bit more so opponents don't fall into the "shoot the big one!" mentality and murder my general turn 1 every game with a shooting army.

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6 hours ago, Fulkes said:

Most of our good generals have large models.

It's one of the reason that one of my army lists has multiple large models (A coven throne, Neferata, a Mortis Engine,) to help split their focus a bit more so opponents don't fall into the "shoot the big one!" mentality and murder my general turn 1 every game with a shooting army.

You know, the new black coach has an unwritten rule that your opponent has to always shoot it, and then get all confused when you tell them it's a 200+ model. 

 

Tbh, shooting armies only work if people know what to target.

 

It's funny, people always focus my vampire lord on drago  with the 3+ unreadable more than they focus settra (we house rule his command ability to still work). People are bonkers yo.  Big models, amirite?

Edited by Jaxler
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11 hours ago, Fulkes said:

Most of our good generals have large models.

It's one of the reason that one of my army lists has multiple large models (A coven throne, Neferata, a Mortis Engine,) to help split their focus a bit more so opponents don't fall into the "shoot the big one!" mentality and murder my general turn 1 every game with a shooting army.

Luckily I only take 1 or none into my army.

the hell pit abomination is the perfect target for your enemy shooting units.

I have no glue why they shoot everything into that monster (must be that size) (since he lacks of so many things, like being good in. Combat etc.) but hey a 240(very pricey unit) to take so it’ll die turn 2 to shooting, only means that your true unit of elite warriors (in my case, Stormvermins:stormfiends)  will survive and make the charge against the enemy showing him what it means to shoot the wrong unit till death.

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2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

showing him what it means to shoot the wrong unit till death.

It is kinda funny, when people then continue to make the same mistake next game 🤣

but I guess I‘m doing it too from time to time... target priority is so key in this game, together with objective play and keen positioning

XD

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