Proxy models in Matched Play

[Kerelian]

Hello, first time poster on this forum, I just picked up modelling again after four, five years or so.

I wasn't sure where to put this, especially since I'd like the thoughts of people playing outside Nighthaunt/Death. I've gotten my hands on AoS and chosen the Nighthaunt side of things, they look cool and so far they've been good fun to paint. That said, I can feel that painting endless spooky shapes is going to get a little monotonous over time. I have a few old models left over from before my lengthy hiatus and I can't help but want to put them to use.

My question is, how appropriate, and how well received, would using other models in a Nighthaunt paint scheme as proxies be?`My thoughts go toward spooky ghost-Skaven as standins for Chainrasp Hordes (I believe Nagash has a special hatred for rats), or a Chaos Lord, reshaped for maximum ghostiness as a Lord Executioner or Knight of Shrouds.

I'd like to use my Nighthaunt army to play matched, points-based games in local stores and gaming clubs (not tournaments), but I figured I'd sooner ask here for a general impression than proposition random patrons.

Thanks in advance.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

In my mind they’re not proxies, a proxy being a temporary stand in. If they’re based coherently and painted and suit the theme of your army then there should be no problem in pick up games or tournaments. 

Rule of cool, essentially if it’s cool it’s alright. 

[sorokyl]

There are 2-3 things to be considerate of when you aren't using the correct models... The time and money your opponent spent on their army, and how easy it is for your opponent to understand what's going on. 

There is a difference between proxy and conversion, proxy is usually a dirty word, because you've been inconsiderate of the above.   I would not be okay if you painted skaven blue and called them ghosts.  That's a proxy.

Conversions are usually ok, many people enjoy them, but conversion means you did some work on top of just painting it a different color.  If your skaven had chainrasp like robes on them, that would be cool.  

[syph0n]

3 minutes ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

In my mind they’re not proxies, a proxy being a temporary stand in. If they’re based coherently and painted and suit the theme of your army then there should be no problem in pick up games or tournaments. 

Rule of cool, essentially if it’s cool it’s alright. 

I'd play someone as long as it's obvious and clear from looking at them what they're supposed to be. A good paint job and weapons works. We already accept that a musician or banner has the same weaponry as the rest of the unit, so why not a slightly different model? That being said, I do have an army that works based on 'proxy' models. But they are based officially and the weaponry is the same or equivalent.

 

[amysrevenge]

This is 100% dependent on your local community.  I can come on here and tell you I'm perfectly fine with whatever wave of gray/3rd party/counts-as mish-mash you can come up with, but that's not helpful for you. Hahaha.

[Kerelian]

Hi, thanks for the replies so far.

 

I should clarify that I'm not looking for a definitive ruling or anything like that, but to just get a feel for what some people think, and some general thoughts on how it might be done - or why it specifically shouldn't be. Proxy might've been poor wording.

[amysrevenge]

I have...  opinions about this.  Strong ones.  That angry up my blood.

And so I don't like to talk about it in too much detail.  I don't like getting all riled up.  Hahaha.

I'm normally a "you play your way and I'll play mine and we'll all have our own nice time" kind of guy, but with this particular topic I tend toward "I do it this way and you should too" in a way that makes me uncomfortable.

[Kerelian]

I sense a harrowing number of grey "so this dude counts as an X" armies in your past. I'd love to hear your experiences if they don't bother you too much.

[Ollie Grimwood]

If they’ve got the same base size as the model they are counting as and the  miniature is the same size or larger than the model they are representing there should be a problem. 

[amysrevenge]

5 minutes ago, Kerelian said:

I sense a harrowing number of grey "so this dude counts as an X" armies in your past. I'd love to hear your experiences if they don't bother you too much.

It's the opposite.  I have a VERY wide acceptance of whatever/whenever.  I demand a minimal amount of effort, and nothing else.  I put my line at "scraps of base-sized paper" as things I won't play against, but anything above that and I'm happy.  Counts-as, unpainted, whatever, it's cool.  I don't play with unpainted stuff, but make no such demands on my opponent (the latter is where I lean closer than I am comfortable with to "you must also share this attitude").

I don't know 75% or more of the model line by sight anyway, so why would I care if it's the actual model or a different model for a given unit, if I have to be told what it is either way?

And now I live in a part of the world where 40k has a stranglehold on the hearts of local gamers.  If I tell someone with an iffy AoS army to F-off, that's a dude I'll never see again.  So even if I wasn't cool with relaxed standards (which I am), I'd at least have to pretend I was OK with it, or basically retire from gaming altogether.

[Couchatron]

Counts as = 👍🏻

Proxy = 👎🏻

[sorokyl]

maybe I am being a stick in the mud, but for me there are different degrees of "counts as" 
"This lord Kroak counts as a Slann Starmaster"  - Sure man. Baddest Starmaster I ever heard of ... 
"This Lord of Blights I am playing as the 5th blightking in this unit - Sure.  
"These random alves with swords count as other random alves with swords because I like the models better" - Ok man. That's cool.
"These  liberators count as sequitors" - Um.  Okay man....
"These clanrats count as chainrasps"  - Huh? 
 

[amysrevenge]

5 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

"These clanrats count as chainrasps"  - Huh? 
 

But even here there's levels.

"My chainrasps are on the painting block still.  For tonight, I'm putting clanrats out, as the base size (I assume) is the same."

vs.

"Here are my clanrat-chainrasps for the 6th week in a row."

Same game, very different situation.

[Kerelian]

8 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

maybe I am being a stick in the mud, but for me there are different degrees of "counts as" 
"This lord Kroak counts as a Slann Starmaster"  - Sure man. Baddest Starmaster I ever heard of ... 
"This Lord of Blights I am playing as the 5th blightking in this unit - Sure.  
"These random alves with swords count as other random alves with swords because I like the models better" - Ok man. That's cool.
"These  liberators count as sequitors" - Um.  Okay man....
"These clanrats count as chainrasps"  - Huh? 
 

Precisely. I'm envisaging decrepit and chained clanrats, painted just like the chainrasps, but that's not what everyone is going to think either.

For me, I wonder what Skaven and other creatures' spirits would look like in a Nighthaunt, seeing as the chainrasps seem primarily human (because of their skulls), and the glaivewraith stalkers are amalgamations with the skulls of horses.

[sorokyl]

true.  intent plays a big role.  A while ago my buddy forgot his dire wolves at home and just used gryph hounds for the game, no problem with that... But if he just didn't own dire wolves and decided he wanted them in his list and put gryph hounds on the board, that's not as cool  

[sorokyl]

2 minutes ago, Kerelian said:

Precisely. I'm envisaging decrepit and chained clanrats, painted just like the chainrasps, but that's not what everyone is going to think either.

In my opinion, paint does not make a conversion. People paint their minis in all kinds of crazy colors, it doesn't make them different things.  it is less offensive to me though. 

One thing i will say is that it is highway robbery that a small sprue of ETB chainrasps costs $40, so that's also a consideration i would take.   "Hey man I don't want to spend $400 on chainrasps, you mind if i proxy rats for a few games to see if i like the army"   - By all means!

[CaptainSoup]

Like what everyone else has pretty much said here, it should be okay with some glaring exceptions. There is also a muddy difference between "count as" and "proxy." 

Everyone's opinion on this can be slightly different but I think the rule of thumb is, if its easy to point out what model is what and actually is a model and not some toddler toy or a piece of paper, then it should be okay. 

I think whats interesting about Death is you can do all kinds of cool conversions. You can say an army of free people units painted in a ghostly theme can count as a unit of skeleton warriors and it fits really well because at the end of the day everyone dies and everyone has a soul and Nagash takes them all for his own uses. Those are some really cool conversion ideas!

[syph0n]

I dunno. If the clan rats were painted as ghosts, bases were clear, weaponry clear, I honestly don't think that's pushing it. For years people have put little more than a skelly head on a different body, made it look dirty, hey undead aelf. I remember seeing an undead high elf army just like that back in about 2000!

It's quite nuanced I feel and different people have different limits. If you're not doing it for a gaming advantage I think you should be fine. 

/edit @CaptainSoup, I agree!

Also, look at all the Stormcast as X models you see. There was even a Chaos one on the Warhammer Community and I had no idea what was what, other than it look seriously cool. 

Maybe it's because I'd hope my Bolt Throwers on legit bases would get away as Celestar Ballista, my Corsair conversion would count as a Lord Ordinator. I have a Sorceress on Manticore I want to use as a Griffon Battlemage. But then, I am looking to model them in such a way that it's obvious what they should have been. 

[svnvaldez]

1. Ask your TO. If they say its okay its okay.

2. Consider if the event has soft scores. Some players/judges may take it  upon themselves to punish proxies with a lower soft score.

[amysrevenge]

I think, other than my already mentioned base-sized bits of paper, I'm also not happy with the same model standing in for two different things.  Like, say, someone using Liberators as stand ins for both Sequitors and Evocators (and maybe even a unit of actual Liberators!).  One at a time, buddy.

[svnvaldez]

I missed the part that your not a tournament gamer, to add to the convo it is clearly GWs intent that you don’t use proxies. See Warhammer World requirements and this FAQ.

That said I wouldn’t mind playing a proxy as long as the base is accurate.

 

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

I play What You See is What You Get. Things like unit upgrades, such as banners or drummers etc. is fine, since it's pretty clear that the final few models to die will be those ones, and rules like Stardrake jaws are rare. For example, just one unit in my Freeguild army lacks a banner as it was awkward to make/ paint at the time, so the piper does his job too since there's no ruling against models holding multiple roles (unless you tried to model all your Namarti with banners for +1 attack). So long as it's clear which model is special it's fine for one off units (I'd go back and remodel it if I was that much of a stickler).

Now if all 3 of your Stormfiends have warpfire projectors, but only one of them actually is modeled that way, then you're proxying for advantage, even though the rules allow 3 of them, and I would reject that outright. I've had people quickly switch back to grinder fists to get that +1 wound upgrade because they have grinder fists on the model, but warpfire projectors in game.

[Sleboda]

Since the topic is about Matched Play, I'll answer first with a simple hard "no." 

At a tournament (assuming you mean that when you reference Matched Play - if not, never mind), there should be no room for an unwarranted advantage, intended or not, and using the proxies gives you an advantage.

 

In basement games (Matched or otherwise) I have a very simple, straightforward rule:

Put your army on the table. Say nothing. Put no lables next to the units. If I can identify not only which army it is, but also what each and every model in the army is supposed to be, then it's fine. If not, you've let form override function, and that's not cool.

[Greyshadow]

5 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

 

As this FAQ is framed, the way it defines proxies, I am in 100% agreement with it. I think the intent here is not to stifle creativity but to maintain the way Warhammer transports you off to tell stories in the Mortal Realms.

So, for me if someone went to the effort to paint up ghost Skaven, maybe even making some green stuff manacles and said these are Chainrasps, these would not be proxies, they would be conversions. They wouldn't be covered by the rule above in my opinion. If you asked me for my permission anyway I would say hell yes!

[Ollie Grimwood]

In my experience I have not found opponents too worried about this sort of thing. I’ve used my Marauders with two handed weapons as Bloodreavers with meatriper axes without complaint at a number of tournaments (including at a WHW one). As long as the Skaven are painted like ghosts I can’t see problem, Skaven seem like prime candidates for becoming Chain Rasps. 

Of course I’m a big fan of non human Undead models so there’s a bit of personal bias.