Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
Dan.Ford

Summoning for Death - Possible mechanic

Recommended Posts

Same as before to keep the main core Command point and the General is requirement but make it a D6 roll.

On a roll of a 2+ a Unit is Summoned at its starting minimum level. Larger Units can be Summoned but subject to modifiers.

 

-1 to the roll for each unit size increments i.e. 10 to 20 is -1 to roll.

 

-1 to the roll for Ethereal 

 

+1 to the roll Deathrattle, Deathwalkers

 

+1 to the roll PER unit (any) that has been destroyed within 9" of the Gravesite that is being used to Summon Units.

 

If an additional Friendly Wizard is within 9" of General and Gravesite a re roll can be made by the General but the additional friendly Wizard can not cast or dispel that phase.

 

If a Enemy Wizard is within 9" of the General and Gravesite being used he can force a re roll of successfully summoning rolls but he can not cast or dispell/unbind for that rest of the hero phase.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Too broken whille also being random, and random overall makes summoning mechanics bad.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a very tricky mechanism to balance out, but I think the current rules have a decent balance between broken (pre-ghb) and stupid (pre-ghb18).

sure one might like to have something else or more fluff, but an easy to use non-broken ability is not that small a thing.

something tied to the invocation rolls (necro 2d6; vamp 3d6 +1d6 for Gravesites) maybe, but what? Models, wounds? What units? Summoning morghast would be fluffy cool, but balanced? Summoning 10 skellis a waste of effort...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few different, initial thoughts to get more ideas flowing:

  1. Escalating CP:  The first use as normal, second use requires 2 CPs, third use 3....  Fluff wise, think each successive raising requires the general to have to dig deeper through the filth of ages to resurrect ever more older corpses
  2. If the general dies, any resurrected units "die" with him:  doesn't change the mechanic, but does increase possible counter-play.  Seems in keeping with the fluff.  
  3. Reduce gravesites from 4 to 3 and re-evaluate.
  4. Require the use a spellcast opportunity in addition to the CP.  If, for example, a necro is my general, I can either cast VHDM or use my CP to bring back a unit, but I can't do both in the same turn.

A few comments about the discussion in general:

  1. I really like the current summoning mechanic from a fluff perspective.  IMO it nails the lore perfectly, and battles on the tabletop really seem to pay homage to the old fiction.
  2. I really don't like suggestion in the first post.  Too bloated and inelgent.  Too much going-on, too much book-keeping, too much to keep track of and potentially get wrong.
  3. I would hate to see us over-react and do too much, too soon.  Death was in a bad place for a long time, and if we need to reign it back in now, I'd prefer to see us incrementally nibble around the edges until we find balance versus shatter it completely with a nerf-bat

 

Edited by Lemon Knuckles
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just noticed that this thread was moved here from the general forums.  For what it's worth, I think this thread is better served there than here, since I am assuming Dan is bringing it up out of concern for the state of the metagame as a whole.  Certainly I have heard complaints.  I don't think getting feedback only from the Death sub-forum will result in broadest or most balanced discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly I'll take balanced and fair over fluffy and thematic any day. While thematic stuff is nice, if it breaks the game or makes it unfun for everyone else then the rule isn't good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

Shouldn't have to be either/or.

Ideally, but let's be honest, the lore for someone like Nagash would have him wreck the opposing army and turn them into his minions without needing to even fight. We got to draw the line somewhere to allow people to have a game they can still play and enjoy after all.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

I would hate to see us over-react and do too much, too soon.  Death was in a bad place for a long time, and if we need to reign it back in now, I'd prefer to see us incrementally nibble around the edges until we find balance versus shatter it completely with a nerf-bat

Oh I remember this, it was such a bad time Death.

GW destroyed Tomb K.... . :(  

At events it was getting so bad for Death (5-10% showing) that at SCGT the top placing was 30th by Tony M.

1 hour ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

Just noticed that this thread was moved here from the general forums.  For what it's worth, I think this thread is better served there than here, since I am assuming Dan is bringing it up out of concern for the state of the metagame as a whole.  Certainly I have heard complaints.  I don't think getting feedback only from the Death sub-forum will result in broadest or most balanced discussion.

You are correct, I think it would be better if it was moved back,     please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think our summoning is that broken compared to others like seraphon! We do not bring new units we bring slain ones back. So a good opponent can just decimate a skeleton unit to like 5-10 models with battleshock and don't focus it after this! Even if we can heal them to like 20 men, it won't be as deadly and he can focus important part after this like our heroes. Other way to ruin our summoning: just kill our general, or camp gravesites. There's a lot of counter play possible while some like Nurgle are way easier to pull off and bring completely new units to the board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not sure where this summoning mechanic complaints keep coming from. Popular streamers keep banging on about them despite not playing the army I suspect is the main culprit.

There's serious limitations in Death's summoning mechanics compared to other factions; I think it's the desire to change the rules over understanding the limitations is a bit of BS. 

----

1. Only the general can summon a unit that has been destroyed.

2. You cannot summon units out of thin air that is not already on your list and already destroyed.

3. General has to be within 9" of a grave site.

4. Unit has to be wholly within 9" of the grave site. 

5. Happens at the end of your movement phase (both good and really bad).

6. Gravesites have to be deployed before deployments begin.

There's some serious tactical considerations here on deployments of gravesites. Most Death armies (outside Grimghasts, another story) are pretty fragile and possibly slow.  In a 5 turn objective game, reviving a destroyed unit backfield is a turn discarded. aggressive placements mean possibility of being locked out. Gravesites are static. 

Edited by Takaloy
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Takaloy said:

I am not sure where this summoning mechanic complaints keep coming from. Popular streamers keep banging on about them despite not playing the army I suspect is the main culprit.

There's serious limitations in Death's summoning mechanics compared to other factions; I think it's the desire to change the rules over understanding the limitations is a bit of BS. 

Especially from a Chaos player.

I can agree with that. I mean, lore wise it should be stronger than it is (like getting to use your opponents casualties as a massive horde of zombies or skeletons that tear themselves loose of their fleshy corpses) but it's well balanced right now and doesn't need tampering with. Maybe next time it's our turn to get an update and we find that we've been kicked down the ladder in terms of balance, then sure a buff would be good, but there is no reason for a nerf to our summoning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I think the Summoning mechanisms should be discussed faction internally as well as in a general threat. 

Problem of all the available summoning rules is keeping things balanced, easily applicable, comprehensive ruling and of course faction specific fluffyness.

I think our rules are very well rounded. The invocations and regeneration of existing units are balanced, resummoning tricky to pull off relevantly and fluffwise it fits. the rules are easily learned, easily explained and if strategically mastered pretty strong.

I think the same is true for Khorne, the slaughter strengthens them, easily learned, easily explained and with the right list, suddenly a Bloodthirster comes knocking.

On the other handside, if my nurgle buddy tells me what infection points are harvested, I just answer „yes,whatever“... and then he rolls some dice and summons in 20 plaquebearers. 

Or the Brayherd player who stands next to his herdstone with his sacrificial lambs... calling in more lambs.

Luckily no experience with great old slanns concentrating hard to remember how to stink... skink.

same with Tzeetch, I think there was an exalted flamer, but nothing really interesting. Rules were easy and impact not too crazy. But the list was not cheesed into summoning.

same goes for my own runs with FEC, think the rules are ok, easily explained and not too crazy imo. The regeneration rules are strong, but that’s just one of the strong points of the army and should be strong in relation to for example the shooting abilities of FEC   XD

 

sooo, after all that rambling I think the discussion about the summoning rules is very diverse and pretty tricky to implement, without some cheesemonger out there turning the dial to 11 and wrecking everything (#Nagash pre ghb)

Edited by Honk
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ability to bring back a whole unit of 40 is too strong at the moment. Face it: wheter you kill the skellies or not, they will wreck you. Cogs do exist, so they suddenly move 6” instead of 4”, not so slow, not considering that they can be summonend from a graveyard. To kill them all, you need to focus them; however, no matter what you do, the next turn they are back. If you don’t kill them, they are resurrected by deathly invocation. You always use 1 CP, for 10 or 40. You can bring back more than 250 points every turn. FEC can only summon one unit (or two with the trait) PER GAME. Not saying that type of summoning is bad, but how is that balanced, compared to LoN one? I play FEC and if I could use something like that, to bring back a whole unit... I could be more aggressive, do things a normally can’t do, and that is so powerful.

LoN summoning is automatic, only and always costs 1 Cp and can bring back almost 300 points. Every turn.

Ok, you don’t add a new unit, but on the board you have more points than you should. 

In my opinion a  nerf is needed, something like:

- 2 CP cost or

- once per game

So that you can’t always use it, always having a backup plan, but you need to manage things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion, even removing the possibility of bringing the destroyed units back to life, Nagash remains superior, the problem is not summoning mechanics, because in fact it can be stopped in various ways, killing the general, occupying the mounds, etc. moreover, every cp spent on the evocation is a cp less to be used on the skeletons for buffs. And I think that's the problem, now the game benefits too much hordes, in the last tournaments all have left the elite units to bet on the hordes, see the sylvaneth that now deploy only blocks of 20 dryads and at most 1 kurnoth. In such a situation the best armies are those that can count on the best battleline, with the witches and the skeletons that are too superior to all. It must then be said that in a game that has reached a saturation like the current one, units of 1 wound per model are too light to not insert the evocations. This game has its own Bg, according to which the deaths are hard to break down because they come back to life, if you take away this possibility I have an army equal to others, but much weaker, since the save 6+ today is worth zero given the saturation with yield -1 that runs for armies. Honestly, instead of making LoN worse, would not it be better to improve the other armies? Anyway, increasing the cost of CP to evoke can be a viable way, completely remove the possibility of doing it no, because you would kill the BG army.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Glaurung said:

The ability to bring back a whole unit of 40 is too strong at the moment. Face it: wheter you kill the skellies or not, they will wreck you. Cogs do exist, so they suddenly move 6” instead of 4”, not so slow, not considering that they can be summonend from a graveyard. To kill them all, you need to focus them; however, no matter what you do, the next turn they are back. If you don’t kill them, they are resurrected by deathly invocation. You always use 1 CP, for 10 or 40. You can bring back more than 250 points every turn. FEC can only summon one unit (or two with the trait) PER GAME. Not saying that type of summoning is bad, but how is that balanced, compared to LoN one? I play FEC and if I could use something like that, to bring back a whole unit... I could be more aggressive, do things a normally can’t do, and that is so powerful.

LoN summoning is automatic, only and always costs 1 Cp and can bring back almost 300 points. Every turn.

Ok, you don’t add a new unit, but on the board you have more points than you should. 

In my opinion a  nerf is needed, something like:

- 2 CP cost or

- once per game

So that you can’t always use it, always having a backup plan, but you need to manage things.

so is the ability to 

1. auto unbind

2. add 20 blood letters out of thin air

3. or a Lord of Change or a Bloodthirster

4. teleporting everywhere and rerolling saves

5. Gavriel SureCharge

6. 5+ FNP rerolling with mind razors

 

everything is insanely strong looking in isolation. You're blatantly ignoring the fact that units cannot be moved after being summoned, they can be choked out, and amongst all the other "summoning" mechanics, Death has the biggest limitation. 

Also, word of advice. Don't use words like "let's face it". It implies that it is a fact, but it is an unfounded statement intended to be treated as an axiom. You'll never get a decent argument with words like that. 

 

Edited by Takaloy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Takaloy said:

so is the ability to 

1. auto unbind

2. add 20 blood letters out of thin air

3. or a Lord of Change or a Bloodthirster

4. teleporting everywhere and rerolling saves

5. Gavriel SureCharge

6. 5+ FNP rerolling with mind razors

 

everything is insanely strong looking in isolation. You're blatantly ignoring the fact that units cannot be moved after being summoned, they can be choked out, and amongst all the other "summoning" mechanics, Death has the biggest limitation.

These things are not at the same level, you are the one looking at things in isolation. For example, to summon one of those demons, “points” are needed, so that they will come out after two or three turns. Death can do it every turn, for every unit. Why can’t FEC, for example, summon a new unit every turn?  

They can’t move, but they can charge. Again, cogs are a thing. And they don’t really need to charge too. One unit dies and you bring that back, while another fights. Then when the second one dies, the first one comes back. You are the one looking at things in isolation.

no one brings back, whenever needed, a 40 man strong unit that can easily pull off more than 100 attacks in one go, that can fight twice and that is healed by heroes and unkillable graveyards.

 

I’m not saying they should take that away. But as it stands, it’s too strong, to easy to use, difficult to stop. LoN gets strong buffs/debuffs with magic, so CP are not really a issue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When they come back they can’t fight twice as Vanhels is cast in the hero phase and the summoning in end of movement phase. And I’m willing to bet that a lot of the ‘Death is OP’ is because of grimghasts NOT the Legions of Nagash book. The problem would quite simply be solved by making all Nighthaunt allies with Legions NOT part of. 

If my opponent is spending his cp on bringing back a unit he’s not 

- auto running 6”

-making a unit immune to battleshock

-using any hero’s command abilities

 

is Legions of Nagash strong now?

yes it is, but they’re mostly certainly not running away with every tourney all over the world. Yes they place high, but it’s one of the newer books and as such was written with AoS2 in mind. 

 

Just my thoughts on the matter. As you were fellas ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Takaloy said:

so is the ability to 

1. auto unbind

2. add 20 blood letters out of thin air

3. or a Lord of Change or a Bloodthirster

4. teleporting everywhere and rerolling saves

5. Gavriel SureCharge

6. 5+ FNP rerolling with mind razors

 

everything is insanely strong looking in isolation. You're blatantly ignoring the fact that units cannot be moved after being summoned, they can be choked out, and amongst all the other "summoning" mechanics, Death has the biggest limitation. 

Also, word of advice. Don't use words like "let's face it". It implies that it is a fact, but it is an unfounded statement intended to be treated as an axiom. You'll never get a decent argument with words like that. 

 

Some of these things listed are very powerful and thats why you seem them in the top lists.

But you weaken your argument by bringing up summoning 20 Bloodletters and Bloodthirsters. For those to be summoned you need 7 and 8 units to die. That is clearly not as easy to accomplish as Death's summoning. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Glaurung said:

These things are not at the same level, you are the one looking at things in isolation. For example, to summon one of those demons, “points” are needed, so that they will come out after two or three turns. Death can do it every turn, for every unit. Why can’t FEC, for example, summon a new unit every turn?  

They can’t move, but they can charge. Again, cogs are a thing. And they don’t really need to charge too. One unit dies and you bring that back, while another fights. Then when the second one dies, the first one comes back. You are the one looking at things in isolation.

no one brings back, whenever needed, a 40 man strong unit that can easily pull off more than 100 attacks in one go, that can fight twice and that is healed by heroes and unkillable graveyards.

 

I’m not saying they should take that away. But as it stands, it’s too strong, to easy to use, difficult to stop. LoN gets strong buffs/debuffs with magic, so CP are not really a issue. 

While claiming others are only looking at rules in isolation when they do it to prove a point about how you're restricting your scope too much. "Death can do it for every turn, for every unit." for example proves you haven't actually looked at the rule properly. So let's get that fixed:

Quote

The Unquiet Dead: After territories have been determined, but before any units have been set up, you may pick up to 2 points in your territory and up to 2 points anywhere on the battlefield to be gravesites. You may wish to place suitable markers on these points. Instead of setting up a SUMMONABLE unit on the battlefield, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up in the grave. You can do this with as many units as you wish. At the end of your movement phase, for each DEATH HERO within 9" of a gravesite, you may pick a single unit in the grave and set it up wholly within 9" of that gravesite and more than 9" from any enemy models. Any model that is unable to be set up in this way is slain. If a unit is still in the grave at the end of the battle, it is considered to be slain. Gravesites have the following ability:

Invigorating Aura: At the start of your hero phase, pick a friendly SUMMONABLE unit within 9" of this gravesite. You can either heal D3 wounds that have been allocated to it or, if no wounds are currently allocated to the unit, you may return a number of slain models to it that have a combined Wounds characteristic equal to or less than the roll of a D3.

So two things need to be noted right away: the only way we're summoning a unit from a Gravesite is if we put it there to start with, or if the opposing player has destroyed the unit. Furthermore we can only bring back units with the Summonable keyword which, excluding the Nighthaunt stuff that was added in via FAQ because I don't have that book hand right now, limits us to: Bat Swarms, Fell Bats, Zombies, Skeletons, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Hexwraiths, Spirits Hosts, and Dire Wolves.  The most expensive of these is the maxed size unit of Grave Guard at 420 points, but honestly, even then the ability to bring them back has been factored into that points cost or else a unit of slightly bettered equipped skeletons wouldn't cost so much for 30 models. I mean that's almost the price of a Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon (440 points) but a lot less deadly, mobile or durable so the cost has to be coming from somewhere: namely our ability to bring the unit back.

But let's talk about the "free" resurrection you keep banging on:

Quote

Endless Legions: If your general uses this ability, choose a gravesite within 9" of them. You may pick a friendly SUMMONABLE unit that has been destroyed and set it up again wholly within 9" of that gravesite and more than 9" from any enemy models.

So we need our general to be within 9" of the gravesite, the models can't be set up within 9" of an enemy unit and have to fit wholly within 9". That limits the physical size of the units we bring back, meaning 60 zombies aren't likely to make a return that easily. AND it costs a command point we can't put somewhere else. You kill the general we can't do it. If you're within ~18" (remember we have to be inside of 9" of the gravesite and outside of 9" of your models meaning that large units have to be 18" away from you, while small units like Black Knights are a bit harder to screen out that way but if you're within 9" of our gravesite we automatically can't use it anyways) of one of our gravesites we can't bring them back there, and due to space limitations we're not getting back more than one unit a turn this way.

"But what about COGS" I hear you cry? In most cases the unit we bring back has to be too far away to be able to charge you (see that 9" limitation) meaning that even with COGS giving us +2" to our charge we'd only make the charge up to 8" without rolling. Which means if we are close enough to charge for some reason then we're making a long charge. That is assuming you don't just keep auto-unbinding COGS everytime we try to cast it.

Basically, if you're having trouble fighting against LoN summoning you're making mistakes in how you position your models (as well as your target priority) and a savy player is going to capitalize on it. There are plenty of ways to counter our ability to bring units back for free, you just need to plan to use those methods instead of complaining on the internet that the mechanic is some how broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Easytyger said:

That is clearly not as easy to accomplish as Death's summoning. 

Well, that’s why a bunch of harbringers cost a whooping 220 points and are only beaten in inefficientcy by blood knights.

we have no elite melee units... we have kick a?? summoning...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Glaurung said:

These things are not at the same level, you are the one looking at things in isolation. For example, to summon one of those demons, “points” are needed, so that they will come out after two or three turns. Death can do it every turn, for every unit. Why can’t FEC, for example, summon a new unit every turn?  

They can’t move, but they can charge. Again, cogs are a thing. And they don’t really need to charge too. One unit dies and you bring that back, while another fights. Then when the second one dies, the first one comes back. You are the one looking at things in isolation.

no one brings back, whenever needed, a 40 man strong unit that can easily pull off more than 100 attacks in one go, that can fight twice and that is healed by heroes and unkillable graveyards.

 

I’m not saying they should take that away. But as it stands, it’s too strong, to easy to use, difficult to stop. LoN gets strong buffs/debuffs with magic, so CP are not really a issue. 

"Death can do it every turn" argument is only for those who've never played Legions of Nagash themselves. Similar argument @Easytyger made about 20 Bloodletters. My main play partner plays Khorne so I well understand limitations of both Death and Khorne. He's got plenty of MSU to choke out of the offensive gravesites, defensive gravesites means we lose at least a turn because if you allow your units to spawn within 9" of you *and* fail to choke it out to put 30 Grimghast wholy within 9", then it's all on you. (remember, I can't stress enough, it has to be end of movement phase, only general can do it, general has to be within 9" of gravesite, units have to spawn wholy within 9", and at least 9" away from enemy model, gravesites setup before deployment, can be choked out or played around, the board is 72", objectives are usually 12" minimum apart).

CP is a huge resource for Death, because of many contending needs to make the army tick.

20 Bloodletters is impossible by virtue of "there's better ways to spend blood tithe, like smaller unit summons to capture objective, or auto unbind for 2". But the argument is "in isolation". The "harder to get points" argument is benign, every army has at least 5 units (3 battleline, leader then whatever else), and 8 BT is easily attainable. It also ignores the fact that unlike Death, that summoning is of "addition". Death has to fulfil both "already in your army", and "destroyed" criteria and nowhere near as flexible. 

Let's talk about your favourite faction then, FEC. If I look at it in isolation, I'll call it overpowered. You can summon *new* units *every turn?!*, even elite units? What nonsense is this? You can add units beyond its original size? this is bull****. But we know FEC isn't individually strong, except GKoVD or GKoTG. 

Every summoning mechanic is balanced internally against itself. 

Another note: Legion's of Nagash is an endless army, it's *designed* to win the war of attrition. I won't complain about losing a shooting battle against KO, or a melee fiesta against DOK, because the armies are designed to do exactly that. 

We should all ask the question : why is Death so strong right now when they were so weak previously? It wasn't the summoning, because a whole lot of new armies got new toys that's actually a lot more effective. Two major factors:

1. Shooting is the bane of Death. Death has really unfortunate hero selection for General. Either big monsters that can be shot off, Aggressive monsters that aren't designed to work well with "staying back and revive", or weak mini heroes. Famous streamers, keep crying about "shooting is dead". Actually shooting is not very dead. It's so not dead. What have we learned so far? The very specific few streamers should stop falsely banging about Death summoning mechanics just as they did with shooting and actually play the game before jumping to baseless conclusions. They've done nothing but feed the mob frenzy and set false trend.

2. Grimghast is a huge anomaly. It's a horde unit, overly efficient and covers many aspects that all other summonable units lack (outside Hexwraiths, see the pattern?). When LON came out, the army seems to designed to balance deathly invocation with weak, low saves, highly inefficient slow units. Or quick weak units that aren't as easy to heal (multi wound like Hexwraiths, Black Knights, Wolves). Grimghasts are single wound models, they fulfil the horde criteria, but most importantly they're both resilient AND fast. They're 60 points cheaper than Grave Guard at the cost of less offensive power but much more versatile.

I've heard arguments about moving Grimghast out of LON but that won't solve the problem. Because the next best thing is Mixed Death. Why? I can throw in a Necromancer, GKoZD, Nagash *and* Grimghast into a single boat, at the cost of 4 gravesites. Grimghasts needs some points adjustment.

 

(Speaking of which, I've been thinking about a Mixed Death list with a Nighthaunt Battalion for Bladegheist for those sweet 5+ FNP) 

Edited by Takaloy
  • LOVE IT! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/10/2018 at 3:07 PM, Glaurung said:

The ability to bring back a whole unit of 40 is too strong at the moment. Face it: wheter you kill the skellies or not, they will wreck you. Cogs do exist, so they suddenly move 6” instead of 4”, not so slow, not considering that they can be summonend from a graveyard. To kill them all, you need to focus them; however, no matter what you do, the next turn they are back. If you don’t kill them, they are resurrected by deathly invocation. You always use 1 CP, for 10 or 40. You can bring back more than 250 points every turn. FEC can only summon one unit (or two with the trait) PER GAME. Not saying that type of summoning is bad, but how is that balanced, compared to LoN one? I play FEC and if I could use something like that, to bring back a whole unit... I could be more aggressive, do things a normally can’t do, and that is so powerful.

LoN summoning is automatic, only and always costs 1 Cp and can bring back almost 300 points. Every turn.

Ok, you don’t add a new unit, but on the board you have more points than you should. 

In my opinion a  nerf is needed, something like:

- 2 CP cost or

- once per game

So that you can’t always use it, always having a backup plan, but you need to manage things.

I'd like to give you a lot of examples how it does not need a nerf
Pairs tournament 1000+1000, my FEC and fellow LoS against BCR and Bonesplitters, whille we had one good turn, Destruction train still rolled over our armies, that where focused on keeping 80 bodies on the table. BCR killed 40 chainrasps almost twice, whille boar boys killed 40 ghouls with double 6+ prevent in one go.
Testing 1250 points tournament rosters my SCE against, I think it was LoB. Even though I've lost the game because 3 of my heroes failed to bring down VLoZD with one wound remaining (ethereal amulet + mystic shield). I managed to block off all gravesites, whille killing most of his army, whille succesfully ignoring VLoZD after he killed like 8 liberators first turn, leaving me without any throw-out units.
2000 points game LoN with Skeleton Pope himself (but no reapers) against Bonesplitters, LoN got tabled with like 150% of his army dead for good. And this game is posted on Twitch

Edited by XReN

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like a few ability's, Endless Legions is pretty swingy.  It requires your General to be alive, within 9" of 4 specific points on the battlefield, no enemy models within 9", a summonable unit having been slain and costs a command point to boot.  When it does kick off, it's pretty powerful, but more often than not you don't really get the opportunity to use it.  I actually get more banter/grumbles from the resurrection mechanic than Endless Legions.

@Dan.Ford Not sure if your suggestion was something that could be done every turn or only when a unit had been slain (as it currently is)?  Reason being that the current Endless Legions ability is done at the end of the Movement phase and not during the Hero phase (so stopping a wizard casting wouldn't really have any effect).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×