Frightfull touch stack with relics that does the same / And save on save relic stack.

[MrRoff]

Hello! I'm quite new to AoS and i have 2 questions!

1. What about relics that give you an "improved frightfull touch" like on a hit roll of 6+ the target suffers 2 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends.
Wouldnt that stack with an normal frightfull touch attack also, so the attack will do 3 mortal wounds ect?

 

2. Relics that give you an save after save, like for example:
Ignax’s Scales:
Roll a dice each time you allocate a mortal
wound to the bearer. On a 4+ the wound
is negated.
Will it stack with like "Deathless minions or Deathless spirits traits?"

For example my Knight of shrouds on etheral steed: First a 4+ save ignoring rend, then a 4+ on each mortal wound allocated to him, and THEN deathless minions from GHoN or Deathless spirits from Nighthaunts giving him another roll after that to ignore wounds on a 6+?

Thank you!

[Tropical Ghost General]

Yes. It's a bit unique, as most 'becomes a wizard' relics don't let you pick a spell from the spell lore, but this one does. 

[18121812]

I'm casting another vote for stacking.

Here's the actual logic/reasoning. If the rules say you can do something, you can do that thing unless later an exception is made. For example, the rules say you can shoot, say you can shoot until something says you can't, like if you've run.

So if a models rules say it gets some kind of combat bonus, it will have that bonus unless something explicitly denies it. 

[AdamR]

Yeah, I can't see why they wouldn't stack.

[MrRoff]

1 minute ago, AdamR said:

Agreed - if they replaced the weapon they'd need a profile - what does a jadewound thorn hit on? wound on? what's it's rend? 

You get the idea!

So, in conclution i could give: Shadow's Edge: An unmodified hit roll of 6 using that weapon deals d3 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends.
To an hero who already have an frighfull touch attack making it 1d3+1 mortal wounds on a 6.

[AdamR]

2 hours ago, SirPug said:

Consider relic weapons as additiol bonuses or rules to a weapon. 

Pretty much every person i have seen in real life and online do the same.

Agreed - if they replaced the weapon they'd need a profile - what does a jadewound thorn hit on? wound on? what's it's rend? 

You get the idea!

[SirPug]

1 hour ago, MrRoff said:

That was what i thought aswell, alot of weapons on the warscroll have diffrent effects For example: "Heal 1d3 in the end of the combat phase if any enemy models was slained by this weapon" OR For each enemy model slain by wounds inflicted by this weapon, you can inflict 1 additional mortal wound to an enemy unit within 3" -  And those effect seems to stay even with relics that says "This weapon becomes the "blank"  on them, why would frightfull touch be diffrent if you put another frightfull touch relic on it?

Consider relic weapons as additiol bonuses or rules to a weapon. 

Pretty much every person i have seen in real life and online do the same.

[MrRoff]

54 minutes ago, SirPug said:

Relics do not remove rules from warscrolls weapon, havent seen anyone playing them like that.

Not evem offical tournaments make them work like that.

 

That was what i thought aswell, alot of weapons on the warscroll have diffrent effects For example: "Heal 1d3 in the end of the combat phase if any enemy models was slained by this weapon" OR For each enemy model slain by wounds inflicted by this weapon, you can inflict 1 additional mortal wound to an enemy unit within 3" -  And those effect seems to stay even with relics that says "This weapon becomes the "blank"  on them, why would frightfull touch be diffrent if you put another frightfull touch relic on it?

[SirPug]

Relics do not remove rules from warscrolls weapon, havent seen anyone playing them like that.

Not evem offical tournaments make them work like that.

 

[Tropical Ghost General]

2 hours ago, EMMachine said:

Do you have a rulequote

It's how the wording of the relic is stated. Most of which will say the relic in place of your weapon. I'm at work at the mo, so when I get home I'll see if I can find the exact wording. Some do allow it to stack, but most, due to the wording, do not.

[EMMachine]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

No, because the bearer's weapon becomes the jade wound thorn. So before it had a weapon that did mortal wound on 6, now it has a weapon that does additional damage after the mortal wound on a roll of a 6. It's a better choice because it does damage as well as the mortal wound. But wasting a valuable relic on swapping a mortal wound causing weapon for a slightly better mortal wound causing weapon is not recommended. 

Do you have a rulequote  (Book, Errata, FAQ) for the statement, that the weapon loses it's own abilities for the artefact ability?

[Tropical Ghost General]

Best thing to do is play games and test them out. For me, my local meta is quite competitive, so what works for some doesn't work for me, and vice-a-versa. None of our heroes are particularly killy and generally the warscroll spells are better than the spell lore ones unfortunately. 

[MrRoff]

2 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Yes. It's a bit unique, as most 'becomes a wizard' relics don't let you pick a spell from the spell lore, but this one does. 

That's really good to give an close combat hero,  so he can buff himself with Reaping scythe, or shademist!
Already casting shademist on Mournghoul sounds really good making everyone within 6" get -1 to hit and -1 to wound him

[MrRoff]

2 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Yeah, spot on I mean ethereal amulet on big monsters. Basically, we don't have a big monster equivalent, which is where a lot of the relics really shine. So having to go against a doppelganger cloak monster hurts, as the relic negates the 10+ charge free attack mechanic that we have as an army. So being able to bypass that is really handy. 

If i choose Midnight Tome  on a hero, he becomes a wizard or gets the wizard keyword and can cast and unbind 1 spell, does he also get to choose 1 spell from the Lore of the underworld?

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 minute ago, MrRoff said:

But Gildanbane only negates artifacts

Yeah, spot on I mean ethereal amulet on big monsters. Basically, we don't have a big monster equivalent, which is where a lot of the relics really shine. So having to go against a doppelganger cloak monster hurts, as the relic negates the 10+ charge free attack mechanic that we have as an army. So being able to bypass that is really handy. 

[MrRoff]

5 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Ok, so where does the coven throne fit into the list, is it as an ally? If so, then as I mentioned on your other question, it won't be able to take a relic.

This is c&c'd from a fb post I did about relics for ghosts.

The relics that are currently worth the investment (in my opinion at least) are:-
Midnight Tome (Battletome) - It's great, more wizards are always useful, no explanation really needed.
Slitter (Battletome) - Situational AF, but can be occasionally useful at splitting bigger units and gambling on taking out lesser heroes.
Pendant Of The Fellwind (Battletome) - Extra movement shenanigans, when combined with cogs and temporal translocation, is silly for getting in your opponents face quickly.
Gildanbane (Chamon) - Negating big monsters with ethereal saves or otherrelics that make them incredibly difficult to shift has proven invaluable. While situational, it has allowed me to make 10+ charges against units with doppelganger cloaks, etc...
Aetherquartz Brooch (Hysh) - If running Kurdoss as well, stealing CP and regaining spent CP on a 5+ is really handy, especially in late game situations

Thanks a ton!

But Gildanbane only negates artifacts, not removes etheral from creatures, if you didn't mean etheral amulet

(I use the Coven Throne as ally or in another setup with Grand host of Nagash)

[Tropical Ghost General]

Ok, so where does the coven throne fit into the list, is it as an ally? If so, then as I mentioned on your other question, it won't be able to take a relic.

This is c&c'd from a fb post I did about relics for ghosts.

The relics that are currently worth the investment (in my opinion at least) are:-
Midnight Tome (Battletome) - It's great, more wizards are always useful, no explanation really needed.
Slitter (Battletome) - Situational AF, but can be occasionally useful at splitting bigger units and gambling on taking out lesser heroes.
Pendant Of The Fellwind (Battletome) - Extra movement shenanigans, when combined with cogs and temporal translocation, is silly for getting in your opponents face quickly.
Gildanbane (Chamon) - Negating big monsters with ethereal saves or otherrelics that make them incredibly difficult to shift has proven invaluable. While situational, it has allowed me to make 10+ charges against units with doppelganger cloaks, etc...
Aetherquartz Brooch (Hysh) - If running Kurdoss as well, stealing CP and regaining spent CP on a 5+ is really handy, especially in late game situations

[MrRoff]

6 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

What's in the list and which faction? 

This is currently what i'm building

Nighthaunt alliance.


2x Guardian of Souls - Soul Cage and Spectral Tether
1x Lady Olynder - Lifestealer
1x Knight of shrouds on etheral steed - Balefire blade or Slitter - General
1x Lord Executioner

1x Mournghoul

20x Chanrasp horde
20x Grimghast reapers
10x Hexwraiths
3x  Spirit hosts

[Tropical Ghost General]

42 minutes ago, MrRoff said:

Got any recomendations

What's in the list and which faction? 

[MrRoff]

1 minute ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

No, because the bearer's weapon becomes the jade wound thorn. So before it had a weapon that did mortal wound on 6, now it has a weapon that does additional damage after the mortal wound on a roll of a 6. It's a better choice because it does damage as well as the mortal wound. But wasting a valuable relic on swapping a mortal wound causing weapon for a slightly better mortal wound causing weapon is not recommended. 

Ah, gotcha
Was just thinking about maybe giving it to my Coven Thrones Etheral weapon to get some more damage output.
Got any recomendations?

[Tropical Ghost General]

No, because the bearer's weapon becomes the jade wound thorn. So before it had a weapon that did mortal wound on 6, now it has a weapon that does additional damage after the mortal wound on a roll of a 6. It's a better choice because it does damage as well as the mortal wound. But wasting a valuable relic on swapping a mortal wound causing weapon for a slightly better mortal wound causing weapon is not recommended. 

[MrRoff]

On 11/4/2018 at 9:09 AM, Tropical Ghost General said:

1) It depends on the wording of relic. As frightful touch is related to the weapons on the warscroll, most relics replace the bearer's weapon, so they won't stack. If the relic states in addition to any of their main weapons regular damage then it would, but as far as I can remember, none of the artefacts/relics that cause mortal wounds are in addition to the regular weapons attacks.

What about this relic then?

Jadewound Thorn: "Pick one of the bearer’s melee weapons to be the
Jadewound Thorn. If the hit roll for that weapon
is 6+ that attack inflicts 1 mortal wound in
addition to its normal damage."

"IN ADDITION to its normal damage", this would stack no?

[Tropical Ghost General]

1) It depends on the wording of relic. As frightful touch is related to the weapons on the warscroll, most relics replace the bearer's weapon, so they won't stack. If the relic states in addition to any of their main weapons regular damage then it would, but as far as I can remember, none of the artefacts/relics that cause mortal wounds are in addition to the regular weapons attacks. 

2) Currently saving throw abilities do stack. So if a lord executioner takes a relic that grants an extra save throw of 4+ against mortal wounds and it is hit by a mortal wound attack, the sequence would go: No regular save of 4+ due to mortal wound attack, artefact/relic save of 4+, warscroll ability save of 5+, allegiance ability save of 6+.