Activating abilities of reserved units.

[Necrolepsey]

New player here, I had a question that was brought up with Kurdoss Valentian and his "If I Cannot Rule, None Shall Rule!" ability. Can this ability trigger when Kurdoss in "in the underworld"? I know that with Lady Olynder her command ability specifically says it can only be used if she is the general and on the battlefield. Kurdoss has no mention of anything like this for his ability; no requirements at all really besides when to use it. I browsed through the core rules and I see no mention of a model needing to be on the battlefield to be able to use an ability. It makes sense that he wouldn't be able to, but I just can't find anything concrete.

[King Taloren]

Anything not on the battlefield is not considered in play for any reason. No abilities, attacks, skill, etc. can be used by them u til they have actually made it on the field 

[Isotop]

9 hours ago, King Taloren said:

Anything not on the battlefield is not considered in play for any reason. No abilities, attacks, skill, etc. can be used by them u til they have actually made it on the field 

I guess your not stated reference should be this:

"Q: Can models set up somewhere other than the battlefield (in the Celestial Realm, for example) use abilities or command abilities to affect other units?

A: No. Only models deployed on the battlefield can use abilities or command abilities."

(https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/AoS_FAQ_The_Rules_v1.2.pdf, page2)

I hope I am right on this one. If you have any additional evidence for your claim, feel free to inform us.

The problem I have with this FAQ (from AOS1.0 by the way) is the following: It seems to contradict everything we are used to do during a lot of AOS matches. For example:

(1) How can the Celestant Prime gain bonus attacks for his weapon?

(2) How can an Auric Runesmiter use his tunneling ability to bring himself/another unit onto the battlefield?

(3) (How) can Ripperdactyls place their Toad when they are not deployed due to a Shadowstrike Starhost?

Everyone, feel free to add other cases coming to your minds. I would like to use this thread to discuss the stated FAQ and its applicability with everyone interested to contribute. As I am a newer player myself, I am not sure if this topic was allready discussed when the FAQ hit initially. In my view, it is at least another example of very sloppy rules writing.

[Overread]

15 minutes ago, Isotop said:

I guess your not stated reference should be this:

"Q: Can models set up somewhere other than the battlefield (in the Celestial Realm, for example) use abilities or command abilities to affect other units?

A: No. Only models deployed on the battlefield can use abilities or command abilities."

(https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/AoS_FAQ_The_Rules_v1.2.pdf, page2)

I hope I am right on this one. If you have any additional evidence for your claim, feel free to inform us.

The problem I have with this FAQ (from AOS1.0 by the way) is the following: It seems to contradict everything we are used to do during a lot of AOS matches. For example:

(1) How can the Celestant Prime gain bonus attacks for his weapon?

AoS, like all GW rules sets, is a permissive rules system where the rules permit you to do things within the game. Ontop of that there are the core rules and then Battletome rules; where Battletome rules (ergo warcroll abilities) can contradict the core rules.

 

So the "core" rule is that models not on the battlefield cannot use abilities or such, however the Celestant Prime has an ability that does work off-table and it specifically states this in its warscroll:

"Instead of setting up this model on the battlefield, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up in the Heavens as a reserve unit. If you do so, at the end of your movement phase you must declare whether this model will remain in reserve or strike from the Heavens. If this model remains in reserve, add 2 to the Attacks characteristic of Ghal Maraz until the end of the battle."

So it cannot use abilities, but this ability specifically states that it can. Therefore the model CAN use this ability, since it works upon being off the table. And since the bonus to attacks lasts till the end of the battle/game those bonus attacks will be there for when the model enters combat.

If an ability has no statement regarding the model using it whilst off the table then its clear that the model cannot use that ability as it then defaults to the standard core rules. 

[King Taloren]

Though also to point out while the ability does talk about being off the table the actual effect doesn’t begin until Prime actually comes to the table.

[amysrevenge]

5 hours ago, King Taloren said:

Though also to point out while the ability does talk about being off the table the actual effect doesn’t begin until Prime actually comes to the table.

Yes it would be trivial to reword the ability so that it was an on-the-table ability, but it would be hard to do it in that passive voice "rulespeak" they like to use.

Give him a * for his Attacks characteristic.  As a first-pass, unedited attempt at defining the *, say "The Attacks characteristic of the Celestant-Prime is 3, unless it is set up in the Heavens.  If it is set up in the Heavens, the Attacks characteristic is equal to 1 + 2 times the current battle round number when it is set-up.  For example, if the Celestant-Prime is set up in the 3rd battle round, the Attacks characteristic is equal to 1 + 2 times 3, or 7."

There you go, no abilities happening off the table.

[Glazer]

On 10/24/2018 at 10:29 AM, Isotop said:

I guess your not stated reference should be this:

"Q: Can models set up somewhere other than the battlefield (in the Celestial Realm, for example) use abilities or command abilities to affect other units?

A: No. Only models deployed on the battlefield can use abilities or command abilities."

(https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/AoS_FAQ_The_Rules_v1.2.pdf, page2)

I hope I am right on this one. If you have any additional evidence for your claim, feel free to inform us.

The problem I have with this FAQ (from AOS1.0 by the way) is .....

This FAQ from AOS 1 has been replaced with the following designer's commentary for AOS 2 (it is first answer under the 'Reserves' header in the Core Book Design Commentary):

"Q: Can models set up in reserve (in the Celestial Realm, for example) cast spells, or use abilities or command abilities to affect other units?

A: No. Only models deployed on the battlefield can cast spells, or use abilities or command abilities to affect other units."

Note that the answer has been changed so that that it is specifically about the unit in reserve using abilities to to affect other units (not itself).

[Isotop]

23 minutes ago, Glazer said:

This FAQ from AOS 1 has been replaced with the following designer's commentary for AOS 2 (it is first answer under the 'Reserves' header in the Core Book Design Commentary):

"Q: Can models set up in reserve (in the Celestial Realm, for example) cast spells, or use abilities or command abilities to affect other units?

A: No. Only models deployed on the battlefield can cast spells, or use abilities or command abilities to affect other units."

Note that the answer has been changed so that that it is specifically about the unit in reserve using abilities to to affect other units (not itself).

Thank you for the reference!

This means Kurdoss´ ability does indeed work while he is in reserve, doesn´t it? As far as I can tell, he is not (directly) affecting other units with it. 

Likewise, Ripperdactyls can set up their toad while being in reserve due to Shadowstrike Starhost, since placing the toad on the board does not affect a unit directly.

What are you thinking, folks?

[Russ]

How would that work for the Warpgnaw Verminlord though? His tunnelling ability affects him and another Skaven unit

[Isotop]

On 10/31/2018 at 7:34 PM, Russ said:

How would that work for the Warpgnaw Verminlord though? His tunnelling ability affects him and another Skaven unit

I think the Warpgnaw´s and similar abilities are safe because of:

"Most warscrolls include one or more abilities that can be used by the warscroll’s models during a game of Warhammer Age of Sigmar. Abilities take precedence over the core rules."

(https://ageofsigmar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/06/AoS_Rules-ENG.pdf, page 13)

Since the Realm Guide ability of the Warpgnaw Verminlord is contradicting the core rules/FAQ, the first overwrites the latter.

 

I would like to finish the general discussion in order for the TO to get a clear and final answer. I think we allread found out that 

On 10/24/2018 at 2:22 AM, King Taloren said:

Anything not on the battlefield is not considered in play for any reason. No abilities, attacks, skill, etc. can be used by them u til they have actually made it on the field 

is definitely wrong. Abilities from models in reserve can take place as long as they are not affecting other units.

So, the next question has to be: What does "affecting a unit" mean? I suppose there has to be some differentiation between abilities affecting a unit and abilities no affecting a unit. Otherwise, the FAQ shown by @Glazer would not make a lot of sense. My proposition for the aforementioned differentiation would be:

(1) An ability affects a unit if it directly applies damage or any kind of in-game effect to the unit. 

(2) An ability does not affect a unit in any other case than (1)

Following this definition, Kurdoss´ ability asked about by @Necrolepsey would indeed work while he is in reserves. As always, this is only my personal approach, so I would like everyone to discuss the topic until we find a solution (hopefully). In my view, my understanding of affect is reasonable - but I would like to see other attempts as well.