Let’s chat: Thorns of the Briar Queen

[Requizen]

I was thinking of adapting my hybrid Skritch build for this Warband. Take a reasonable amount of easy score/kill oriented cards (Advancing/Defensive Strike, Precise Use of Force, Extreme Flank, etc), but then also have Supremacy, Tactical Supremacy, and Our Only Way out as potential big glory swings since you have enough models to play towards objectives. I'm not sure how killy the warband is compared to Skritch - the Briar Queen herself seems to be on a similar level but much harder to Inspire, while Varclav and Everhanged seem to be similar to Krrk offensively, at least. 

Probably will be playing them for a while for an upcoming League my FLGS is doing, depending on how much I like them and whether I want to try any of the other new ones  

[Skritt]

Here is my idea for an objective style night haunt deck. Probably offset the board's and try score objectives , then pick off a few enemies once i got some up grades. 

Any suggestions ?

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Skritt

[CanHammer-darren]

I personally think objective play is dead. Too many ways of pushing pulling and esrthquaking and otherwise messing with someone sitting in ibjectives 

[Skyeline]

@CanHammer-darren

I don't quite buy into all forms of objective play being dead. Having Supremacy and/or Our Only Way Out tucked away into a defense oriented deck is still viable in my mind. 

Some examples that I've noticed from recent tournaments:

Clash In The North 2018 - Sepulcheral Guard 1st place (Deck linked here)
Running both Supremacy and Our Only Way Out. Has quite a few options for pushing/teleporting onto objectives.

UK Team Championships Grand Clash 2018 - Thorns of the Briar Queen on the 1st place team (Deck linked here)
Another Supremacy/Our Only Way Out combo. Built more aggressively than the SG deck, but still has solid push options. 
 

@Skritt I think that deck is looking good. Some suggestions:

1. You might want to try to fit one more immediate in there somewhere. Swarming Spirits seems like a very solid option to me, as I don't think it's too tough to score. You could also run Change of Tactics given that you're running Spectral Parry (more on that later).

2. I'd recommend trying to fit Quick Advance into your gambits somewhere. Having that double push could very well make or break some pivotal objective holds.

3. You might want to consider swapping out Spectral Parry for Inspired Command. The latter gives you the flexibility of a push or guard as long as your leader is still alive. Alternatively you may simply want to swap it out for something entirely different (Quick Advance?). Most decks that I see running a gambit which allows you to immediately put a fighter on guard generally also run Change of Tactics for a potential easily scored immediate 1 glory.

4. Do you actually need Shardcaller? Your objectives don't appear to be setting you up to want any specific numbered objectives. Shardcaller doesn't really help with this strategy as far as I can tell.

[Skritt]

1 hour ago, Skyeline said:

@CanHammer-darren

I don't quite buy into all forms of objective play being dead. Having Supremacy and/or Our Only Way Out tucked away into a defense oriented deck is still viable in my mind. 

Some examples that I've noticed from recent tournaments:

Clash In The North 2018 - Sepulcheral Guard 1st place (Deck linked here)
Running both Supremacy and Our Only Way Out. Has quite a few options for pushing/teleporting onto objectives.

UK Team Championships Grand Clash 2018 - Thorns of the Briar Queen on the 1st place team (Deck linked here)
Another Supremacy/Our Only Way Out combo. Built more aggressively than the SG deck, but still has solid push options. 
 

@Skritt I think that deck is looking good. Some suggestions:

1. You might want to try to fit one more immediate in there somewhere. Swarming Spirits seems like a very solid option to me, as I don't think it's too tough to score. You could also run Change of Tactics given that you're running Spectral Parry (more on that later).

2. I'd recommend trying to fit Quick Advance into your gambits somewhere. Having that double push could very well make or break some pivotal objective holds.

3. You might want to consider swapping out Spectral Parry for Inspired Command. The latter gives you the flexibility of a push or guard as long as your leader is still alive. Alternatively you may simply want to swap it out for something entirely different (Quick Advance?). Most decks that I see running a gambit which allows you to immediately put a fighter on guard generally also run Change of Tactics for a potential easily scored immediate 1 glory.

4. Do you actually need Shardcaller? Your objectives don't appear to be setting you up to want any specific numbered objectives. Shardcaller doesn't really help with this strategy as far as I can tell.

Solid advice. Yes I was going to include tactical supremacy and tactical genius but then decided against it

[CanHammer-darren]

I meant decks that focus on objective play only. There used to be decks running all the hold objective X cards etc etc. That playstyle is dead. Splashing supremacy is great 

[Skritt]

21 minutes ago, CanHammer-darren said:

I meant decks that focus on objective play only. There used to be decks running all the hold objective X cards etc etc. That playstyle is dead. Splashing supremacy is great 

What do you do if you get board placement and the enemy gets 3 objectives? My main opponent plays goblins and regularly covers every objective in his board half has a matter of course

[Skyeline]

6 hours ago, CanHammer-darren said:

I meant decks that focus on objective play only. There used to be decks running all the hold objective X cards etc etc. That playstyle is dead. Splashing supremacy is great 

That's fair. I'd agree that objective only decks are in for a struggle nowadays.

@Skritt That's a tough one. I think goblins are probably going to be the absolute worst case scenario for something like this. Most warbands (particularly those that play aggro) simply won't have the bodies to spare to babysit all three objectives in their territory. Sepulcheral Guard, Goblins, and other Briar Queen decks will probably pose the biggest issue.

Your deck has some options, but they will require a degree of luck and planning.

1. Pop a Great Concussion OR a Howling Vortex to shake up board positioning and then use a Faneway Crystal'd fighter to hop onto a now vacant objective.
    
2. Use Sudden Appearance to get as close as you can to an objective in your opponents side. Charge someone, go for the kill (or at least the push!) and then use one of your push ploys to get yourself onto the objective. Irresistible Prize even works in a pinch in this case since you can simply elect to push your fighter first and get them onto the objective and then push any other enemy fighters as needed.
    
3. Do any number of stupid things with Ready For Action. Something like charging for a kill and then popping ready for action to hurl yourself onto the now vacant objective. I'm reaching on this, but with great circumstances you could even do something silly like this:
   1. Pop Howling Vortex (Pray to your deity of choice that it goes off)
   2. Apply Faneway Crystal to a fighter
   3. Use Ready For Action
   4. Move with the Faneway'd fighter to a now vacant objective
      Ssshh your opponent doesn't have great concussion. Don't be silly.

In any case a lot of these will come down to having the right cards, ideal positioning, and getting as much off in your last activation of a turn as possible. Hopefully you're going last as well to minimize your opponents opportunity to spend an activation on a counter of their own.

[Skyeline]

Edit: Whelp. Double Post.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Skyeline

[CanHammer-darren]

Earthquake. Concussion. Any number of cards basically screws up the whole round for your opponent. 

[Biboune]

Hi,

My current deck looks like that: https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,292,278,N340,N317,257,N34,N37,N31,234,243,N47,N39,N40,331,395,424,N529,N55,373,N385,284,340,334,N426,N403,372,320,N49,N499,N57,425,430

I wanted to try a game without running Ready for Action an Quick Thinker, with a mix of control, objective and agressive options.

Keep them Guessing, Extrem Flank are now in every deck where I play. The local meta is aiming to score a lot objective cards like those 2:  that the opponent can't deny like Change of Tactic. Final scores are often around 10 glory points, even if the dices are not with you.

Supremacy,  Our Only Way Out, the Keys and  Shacklegheist Chains are in my deck in order to score more than my opponent.  There is few option to get back on objectives after a Great Concussion (like Drifting Advance).

I think about switching an upgrade for Cunning Duelist.

 

I like the Thorns because of the easy immediate objective, the high HP and defense characters (the queen, Varlav and the Ever Hang once inspired), the Varclav's ability is great to get on objectives or to get in position to charge, the options to teleport in the enemy territory.  They also can hit quite hard.

 

 

[CanHammer-darren]

So where does thorns stand after ban list? That’s a lotta cards we can’t use haha. Does objective play become better and we do less aggro play or is it even more into aggro now?

[Sleboda]

It has almost no impact on my deck, and I've been very successful with them, so really I think they are still in good shape.

[Mcrat]

The deck that came first at Da Boyz GC earlier this month is still completely valid - https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,278,N37,N40,N47,N55,N506,N374,410,N499,N340,243,284,296,297,N30,N34,N35,N376,320,N446,N42,N388,310,L38,N45,N403,384,427,426,429,416,N57

Considering they managed to win with Great Concussion still in play, I think that deck would be even stronger now.

[Requizen]

On 11/18/2018 at 8:23 AM, CanHammer-darren said:

So where does thorns stand after ban list? That’s a lotta cards we can’t use haha. Does objective play become better and we do less aggro play or is it even more into aggro now?

I think Objective play is better and Thorns are better at it than most (maybe all?) since they can push 5 models at once. It still has the share of counters with Distraction etc, but it's less so now with Concussion gone and Earthquake restricted (and probably not most people's top choice for restricted), plus Irresistible Prize is another good card to get back on objectives. 

They do have some weakness vs the super aggro decks, especially those running chip damage + shardgale to blow up the Chainrasps. That said, the three named ghosties are pretty solid, and Chainrasps are great targets for Deathly Fortitude/Sudden Growth since they'll mostly be pushed and not move.

[PJetski]

I am considering Tainted Vitality to help deal with Shardgale and other damage ploys.

[Requizen]

I think healing in general will see a lot more play now that the game isn't all about hyper damage and one-shotting. It's a good way to counter some of the passive style decks (especially the ones that run Shardgale + Blooded + Scent of Victory) and is in some ways better than extra defense dice. 

[PJetski]

23 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I think healing in general will see a lot more play now that the game isn't all about hyper damage and one-shotting. It's a good way to counter some of the passive style decks (especially the ones that run Shardgale + Blooded + Scent of Victory) and is in some ways better than extra defense dice. 

I agree. I think we are going to see the rise of ploys that do damage (Shardgale, Lethal Ward, Encroaching Shadow, Raptor Strike, etc.) because they are consistent and do not rely on rolling successful attacks. Even cards like Trap and Pit Trap are still amazing because you can (usually) use them even if you fail your attack. We are approaching a critical mass of these kinds of cards, and it has gotten to the point where drawing cards and pushing people is a better strategy than charging in and exposing yourself to a counterattack.

I also predict that more damage spells will be added, and it's going to push healing cards like Healing Potion, Vampiric Weapon, and Tainted Vitality into the forefront.

Edited November 26, 2018 by PJetski

[PJetski]

Here's my first attempt at a Thorns deck. The gameplan is to play a control style where I hold objectives, try to mitigate losses, and turn the Queen into a wrecking ball that teleports around the table.

I'm running a pack of hold objective cards (Tac 1-2, Tac 3-4, Tac 1-4, Supremacy, Our Only Way Out) and some cards to help enable those specific numerical combinations (Confused Priorities + Shardcaller). The rest of my objectives are meant to fit into my low-aggression playstyle - Martyred, Change of Tactics, Treacherous Foe, Well-Guarded, Keep Them Guessing, Extreme Flank, and Escalation.

What do you think?

 

[Tutenkharnage]

It looks like fun, but I can’t figure out how Confused Priorities is going to help you. (If you’re already sitting on two particular objectives, you don’t need the card; if you aren’t, your opponent is unlikely to help you out unless you’re facing another objective-holding deck.)

[PJetski]

35 minutes ago, Tutenkharnage said:

It looks like fun, but I can’t figure out how Confused Priorities is going to help you. (If you’re already sitting on two particular objectives, you don’t need the card; if you aren’t, your opponent is unlikely to help you out unless you’re facing another objective-holding deck.)

It's to help make sure I can score Tactical Supremacy without having to dive into enemy territory with my Chainrasp. I plan on keeping the Queen on objectives to benefit from Zealous Defender so I think it can be a good inclusion.

I'm going to test it and see how it performs - it's probably the first card I am going to cut.

[Intrinsic]

Over the weekend I attended a monthly a few towns over, non-shadeglass, so I decided to bring Objective Thorns. 15 players attended, I finished first at 4-0 with a perfect 8 wins 0 losses. My closest game was 14-8 vs my first opponent playing Magores. My most lopsided game was 25-0 vs my final opponent Chosen Axes, who I also beat 21-2 in the second game. Pretty standard Objective Thorns minus Howling Vortex cause I can't roll a swirl to save my life and Twist the Knife over RFA because I tried to hold my upgrades for end phase unless absolutely necessary since most people run Escalation in every deck now. 

https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,N30,N34,N37,N35,N340,292,243,278,N376,297,296,N403,N446,336,N47,N45,N40,310,L38,384,410,N499,426,427,429,391,N529,N55,331,416,372,252

[Sleboda]

Clearly it went well for you.  Congrats!

How did you manage to make Objective play work in a world of Earthquakes, Drive backs, pushes, etc.?

[Intrinsic]

Objective Thorns is for sure much tougher than Relic Briar Queen beatdown or aggro/flex Thorns, but playable. For one, your opponent never suspects it and will often spend cards they should be saving for last activation, allowing you to gain an advantage first round. From there you often have them on the backfoot and they spend the rest of the game reacting to what you're doing instead of implementing their own gameplan. Then, in the second game is when you start playing your tricks. 1 and 4 are the objectives most vital to your strategy and your experienced opponents will recognize this. One of my favorite things to do is go on Guard on the objective I don't need, say 4 if I'm planning on scoring Tac Suprem 1-2. I once made my opponent burn 4 cards killing the chainrasp I put on Guard on objective 1, only to score 3-4 and Keep Them Guessing in the end phase. 

Earthquake isn't really a problem, I literally never see it. Disguising your intentions is by far the best way to minimize pushes and knockbacks and of course packing plenty of your own. Sometimes though luck just doesn't go your way and your opponent manages to knockback an objective holder or has several power cards in hand you can't contend with. But hey, those are the breaks and if you're playing Objective Thorns, you're the sort of person who likes a challenge. 

[Sleboda]

I prefer easy over challenging. Lol. 😁