Do people want Ogors to be combined with Orruks/Grots?

[kenshin620]

Ok so maybe I'm cherry picking a few opinions but lately I've seen a few posts around the forums where some people think Ogors/Gutbusters/Beastclaw Raiders should be in a combined book....with the orruks and grots (non ogor grots like gitmob).
For example

Spoiler

On 10/16/2018 at 2:41 AM, JPjr said:

The Great Horde / Combines - Beastclaw Raiders, Greenskinz, Gitmob Grots, Maneaters, Troggoths, Firebellies, Gutbusters, Aleguzzler Gargants

In the vast plains of Ghur a new power has arisen. Angered by the rise of new cities and the return of civilization to the realms a great Ogre Tyrant has appeared, stronger, larger and smarter than your average ogor he has carved out his own nomadic empire and declared himself Khan. Leading his army on a rampage of destruction he has attracted to his cause all the disparate (read neglected) forces of disorder under one tattered banner.

A thematic counterpoint to the Free Cities, The Great Horde sweeps across the realms like a plague of angry club wielding locusts, destroying, looting and pillaging everything in sight. Civilisation brought chaos and ruin to the realms and now the Great Tyrant Khan will offer them all up to his god the Great Maw as a sacrifice, whether the people of the Free Cities like it or not.

 

Now ok I get it, for some excuse ogors now follow gorkamorka (although the quoted idea bring back the Great Maw) and are under the destruction banner and how WFB is dead and faction compositions have radically changed.

But I just don't know if it really makes sense to have a Battletome where Ogors and Orruks pal around.

Ok yes on one hand making a big combined battletome will allow everyone to get updated at the same time which would be great (So it would be in essence a better made GA: Destruction 2.0.), but I fear this would dilute the differences between Ogors and Orruks especially since they already designed Beastclaw Raiders and the Everwinter.

I mean it would almost be like Ogors are just bigger Orruks...and we already have that with Ironjawz! Plus the synergies between ogors and orruks are (currently) non existent. An Orruk Warboss waaagh only affects orruks, not even green grots. Ogors would be an even bigger stretch (imo, I mean I know the fluff has changed where ogors and orruks do work together more).

Now I understand not every model should help every other model. A Bullgor's command ability doesn't do anything to Thunderscorne. But the 2 "big soup" books we have make sense with nostalgia and theme glasses. Legions of Nagash is Vampire Counts 2.0 (minus ghouls). Beasts of Chaos is literally the original book back in WFB (minus trolls and ogres). It's not like Beasts of Chaos absorbed Skaven or even combined with Slaves to Darkness. That said I do see the arguments for Order Free Cities since  we already have the concepts and even loose rules for Free Cities. Yet the Firestorm Destruction allegiance is just orruks and grots, not Ogors.

 

As I said maybe I'm seeing a vocal minority, do you see other people suggesting ogors and orruks be combined? Do you think it may be the better compromise to take the "neglected" aspects of destruction and update them in one big book so no one is left behind?

[amysrevenge]

I've said it elsewhere, but I'll say it here too.  I'm after some lemonade soup.

I don't think we'll ever see Gutbusters as a solo battletome.  That's the lemon that life/GW has given us.  Fairly uncontroversial.  I personally take it a step further, perhaps controversially, where I also don't think we'll ever see a wider Ogor battletome (Gutbuster, Beastclaw, Firebelly, Maneater) either.  Still too small (yeah, I know Beastclaw has a book - it's too small for a book haha).  Lemon times two.

Therefore, make me some sweet sweet lemonade soup - ie. a Destruction soup tome with Grots and Greenskins.  It's gonna get some allegiance abilities (Beasts is a wonderful example of how to do multiple sets of allegiance abilities in one tome), it's gonna get some warscroll updates, it's gonna also have sub-optimal lore, to justify squeezing them all together. 

It's lemonade out of lemons.  Not perfect, not our every hope and dream fulfilled.  But the best we can reasonably manage, given the circumstances.

[PensivePanther]

This is completely my personal opinion. Not even taking any of the tabletop game aspects into account. I both resent and am baffled  that ogors now follow Gorkamorka in the lore. I was much much happier worshipping the great MAW. Or that cool volcano the firebellys worshipped. Just my little rant.

I honestly cant say what kind of treatment destruction will get in the future. But a Beast of Chaos style update comprised of Orruks, Grots, and Ogors would be welcomed update. I'd rather get a separate Gutbuster battletome if I had my way, combining Gutbusters, Maneaters, and Firebellies back under one umbrella. I'm not saying it wouldn't work to combine the greenskins and the ogors, but my personal preference is I just dont want to. Not why I got into ogors.

Thinking on it more though, the gutbuster grots are fantastic units. So maybe I'd warm up to some stronger gitmob/moonclan/ogor interactions.

[JPjr]

before we get to the green lads, contrary to what I wrote I'm not sure I'd really want BCR folded into this speculative horde. I think they have their own really cool, and interesting aesthetic and actually (tournament viability aside) are a nice, much needed option for a low model count army. I've been thinking about buying a start collecting box just for the fun of painting it.

if they could get just a couple more units I think they'd be fine. It's easy to imagine a frost shaman of some kind as their look plays right into that, maybe another on-foot option (and I know people want new sculpts for the yetis and frost sabres), it would always be a bit of a niche. limited choice but apart from that I think they're golden as they are actually. (I realise I've just asked for like half a dozen new sculpts so not asking much! but still hopefully you get what I mean).

- - - - - - -

as for mixing, matching Ogors & non IronJawz / Bonsesplitterz Orruks it's more trying to make the most of a situation where they're clearly languishing and not likely to get much love, as @amysrevenge said (hah, just as I was typing this he replied already) it's about giving them a purpose/new lease of life becasuse otherwise they;re just going to get nothing.

but for all that I would say that a big rampaging carnival of destruction, made up of motley tribal groups thematically hangs together better than a lot of 'soup' books that aren't just piecing together previously whole, now shattered factions. they all have the same kind of trash heap aesthetic and if any grouping is going to suit a really ragtag mix of creatures then this lot are your best bet.

actually one thing I didnt really go into in my earlier post was GW could use this as a trade off. someone pointed out that the Free Cities army would have something like 88 warscrolls, now if you were going to permanently retire some older models (and their matched play legality) that dont sell to make way for new ones then doing it at the same time as giving people's older armies a shot in the arm would be a way to limit the inevitable backlash.

as for synergies between models well that's just a matter of a few changes to warscrolls and army wide abilities and that's no longer an issue.

 

 

[novakai]

Some reason though, if you look at the Ally system for destruction, the Greenskinz forces and Ogors can't ally with each other outside of mixed destruction. not saying that this is GW thought process between Greenskinz and Ogors relationship but currently they  don't fight for each other weirdly enough. (even Stoneklaw doesn't allow Ogors in it despite the MP stories saying there where Ogors in the army.)

TBH I rather they just make Gutbuster battletome and actually get some  love from GW, but I see the advantage of have soup tomes especially since it a nice short term solution and it help people with collection of older model 

the Caveat though is so far the two soup tome that they release so far where just combining old WHF armies back together again (VC and Beastmen) they have done real soup tomes yet.

[Mincemeat]

It's worth remembering that in the end times Grimgor Iron hide whooped the Ogre Kingdoms arses and bashed in Greasus' skull with his own sceptre, thus causing the ogres to follow him as the incarnate of beasts. I think ogres worshipping gorkamorka is the logical continuation of this (as well as Ironjawz being DA BEST) 

Going off the destruction battle tomes and GA book its looks like since every faction worships GM as a different aspect, it seems that he's more a god of primal behaviour and instinct than anything else (predator God for BCR, Sun eater for firebellies etc.) so it makes sense for ogres to worship since they just wanna eat and fight due to their nature more than anything else, without any real concept of conscience or reason. 

Just my 2 cents, very badly worded ?

[kenshin620]

Well yea I do agree a standalone Gutbuster book is about as likely as a standalone Gitmob book (aka 0) and ANY book is better than no book.

And I also understand that as time goes on, GA armies (outside of Order soup due to some awesome units) do seem very lackluster compared to proper allegiances, especially with Chaos books and Death books trashing the idea of running a Grand Alliance lists since they offer a huge array of models and I'm pretty sure Skaven will get their due (I mean they even highlighted Skaven in the "Getting Started with AoS" magazine, meanwhile completely ignoring the upcoming (but still a secret) BoC).

And yes Ogors are....Ogres....not exactly a AoS specific race. Beastclaw Raiders sort of helped give them a more AoS feel, but still somewhat generic in the face of say Deepkin or Kharadron. Gutbusters even worse so since all they got running for them are cannons strapped on woolly rhinos who are seriously should be in Beastclaw Raiders!

And yes I do also realize the GW design team may not be exactly on board with non-BCR ogors in general. I'm sure there must have been some talk about whether or not foot ogors should be in BCR and somewhere they agreed no (ok tbf this was AoS 1.0 where many factions were quite...bare)

And finally yes the mercenary or "we dont care about who we fight with" aspect means ogors next to greenskinz can work (I mean there were ogres working for the empire back in the day). Grimgor being the Ghur avatar is the icing on the cake.

 

So yea would I be 100% onboard with a combined Dest Book for everyone who can't fit in a AoS faction? No. But when you get lemons, you make lemonade. And in this case said lemons are secretly hidden by people who may or may not dig them up 2 years from now! ⛏️

 

[Kyriakin]

If Beastclaw get roped in with Ogres and, worse still, greenskins - thus losing their unique snow/ice theme and identity - I would seriously consider quitting.

GW messed me around with TK before I liquidized everything and went all-in with BCR.

I really don't want the goalposts moved again, and be left with, essentially, vanilla "Battletome: Ogre Kingdoms".

[Mayple]

13 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

If Beastclaw get roped in with Ogres and, worse still, greenskins - thus losing their unique snow/ice theme and identity - I would seriously consider quitting.

GW messed me around with TK before I liquidized everything and went all-in with BCR.

I really don't want the goalposts moved again, and be left with, essentially, vanilla "Battletome: Ogre Kingdoms".

But if that were to happen, don't you think one of the sub-factions within the battletome would very much be centered around the everwinter and the theme that the Beastclaw raiders currently embody, while simultaneously making sure that they're more viable in the game itself? 

[Malakree]

I feel like Ogors need to be more conceptually fleshed out that they currently are.

• Firebellys could be awesome as we have already seen!
• Gutbusters have a pretty solid theme which is just not implemented into the game. Where are the ravenous feasts as they gorge on their enemies mid battle
• Beastclaw Raiders are kinda wonky, they have two themes going which are both individually cool but together sort of stymie them.
• Maneaters are gutbusters lite, why they are their own faction rather than some sort of Gutbuster specialists I don't know.

They are essentially the Nighthaunt of destruction at the moment, though to be fair "Destruction" is the Nighthaunt of Destruction, cool concepts which needs exploring and building upon.

[Mr_J_Bandit]

Personally I agree that a mixed battletome does not make sense. I cannot see ogors being friends with grots but I can easily see the grots as slaves and potential food source.

The main thing I have been thinking is why the hell cant BCR ally in ironjaws as there is a battalion that forces them to?  I am just starting building my BCR force and I have to ally in hoards of gutbuster grots.  I suppose I am being greedy and wanting to mix the 2

[Luzgurbel]

What if...?

 

What if BCR would be in a "supposed" battletome with Ogors, and it would be a faction of them? Like the sky ports for KO or herds for BoC. They can have some tribes and one of them could be the frozen tribe Beastclaw.

[Kyriakin]

20 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

What if...?

 

What if BCR would be in a "supposed" battletome with Ogors, and it would be a faction of them? Like the sky ports for KO or herds for BoC. They can have some tribes and one of them could be the frozen tribe Beastclaw.

Hard pass. This would all-but-guarantee that new "in theme" BCR kits would never be released or re-sculpted.

Would people seriously prefer, say, those five or six existing DoK units to have just be lumped in with a "Battletome: Dark Aelves" rather than the release and faction-specific battletome that they eventually got?

If a faction has a strong theme and identity, GW will get around to it eventually. The idea of just rebuilding the factions into their mish-mash WHFB forms feels like a massive step backwards and seems to be due to players losing faith/nerve/patience that their turn will come.

However, I also am beginning to feel like the game is being taken over by competitive players for whom "viable" is the only word that matters. It doesn't matter of a faction ties together thematically, so long as there are options to win. Many would accept a random assortment of units in a book called "Battletome: Things and Stuff" if said book was "viable".

[Kaleydoscope]

I would like to have Gutbusters, Maneaters, Firebellies and Beastclaw Raiders in one tome, spiderfang grots and bonesplitters in another (with unlimited greenskin allies), nightgoblins with troggoths and skypirate grots in a third battletome aaand... Yeah, kinda looking forward to what's to come - almost everything would be better than the current situation

[svnvaldez]

I'd like:

1. Ogre soup with Gutbusters, Maneaters, Firebellies and Beastclaw Raiders

2. Old model soup with Greenskinz, Spiderfang, Trolls, Gitmob, Giants.

3. New battletomes for Moonclan, IJ, BS.

So 5 tomes in total.

 

[Kyriakin]

1 minute ago, svnvaldez said:

I'd like:

1. Ogre soup with Gutbusters, Maneaters, Firebellies and Beastclaw Raiders

2. Old model soup with Greenskinz, Spiderfang, Trolls, Gitmob, Giants.

3. New battletomes for Moonclan, IJ, BS.

So 5 tomes in total

Why no Battleftome for BCR, if BS get one?

[Baron Wastelands]

Gutbusters battletome. With a proper theme, not worshipping an orruk god. The Maw. Butcher abilities, tribes, etc. 

BCR plays differently, and is distinct enough. The everwinter theme was a nice introduction, and I don’t mind at all that my once ogre kingdoms army is now two separate armies. Don’t mind maneaters (and even firebellies) folding into the gutbuster tome though, think there could be something potentially interesting to do there.

i don’t know why anyone would want Orruks and ogors in the same army/tome, beyond ga destruction. Tbh I hope one day to be able to run a pure troggoth army (in the same way that I can play warherd now), but this should probably be an option/battalion in a goblin book.

[rattila]

i want a battletome for gutbusters+ maneaters, and a focus on the "mercenary" side of the ogors, by being able to be allied to anyone in the 4 grand alliance and take anyone as allies in the 4 grand alliance.

So you could have 400 pts of ogors out of 2000 in your stormcast army of 400 pts of ironweld arsena out of 2000 of your gutbuster army (something like "sir, those cannon have to go to Ghyran but we dont havr enough men to protect it" "just hire an army of mercenary ogor !"

The first Ogres Kingdom army book allowed that and it was awesome.

Oh and a way to field an army of gutbusters and squigs. I know everyone fin that the squig have to go with moonclan... but comon, a squig is just a maw on foot. And who does the ogors worship? The Great Maw. Squigs should just be sacred animals to them! In any case, that will be the theme of my gutbuster army once they finally release plastic squigs.

[svnvaldez]

5 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Why no Battleftome for BCR, if BS get one?

I don’t think a pure mounted army works in the game. If they came out with plastic yetis and frost sabres then I would be fine with the BCR tome as is (just add a few new abilities). But I think it would be easier to roll it into an ogre tome with no new models like BOC.

[Baron Wastelands]

6 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

I don’t think a pure mounted army works in the game. 

How do you mean? There doesn’t seem to be any game difference between a mounted model and an unmounted model - that is, although they tend to be faster than foot, there are no game mechanics that separate them from any other model (not even a keyword). Why would a mounted army be any different from any other army? 

[ledha]

On 10/19/2018 at 10:54 PM, Mayple said:

But if that were to happen, don't you think one of the sub-factions within the battletome would very much be centered around the everwinter and the theme that the Beastclaw raiders currently embody, while simultaneously making sure that they're more viable in the game itself? 

personnaly, i prefer to see armies keeping their theme and uniqueness, even if they loose a bit on the competitive side. Sure, beastclaw would LOVE some bigs units of chaff and solid infantry, but would look like ay other army in a wargame

[Kyriakin]

7 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

I don’t think a pure mounted army works in the game. If they came out with plastic yetis and frost sabres then I would be fine with the BCR tome as is (just add a few new abilities). But I think it would be easier to roll it into an ogre tome with no new models like BOC.

Of the five kits currently available for BCR (i.e. mammoths, mournfang, hunter, cats and yhetees), only two are mounted. So, I wouldn't call it a "pure mounted army", as such.

While it is possible to build such an army - and the plastic kits and Start Collecting box leans into this, obviously - you could also go Yhetee and/or cat heavy (i.e. Skal).

Either way, I feel BCR would be fine with a few points/ability tweaks and new Yhettee/cat models. Unlike, say, Thunderscorn, I don't feel they need to be lumped in with everything else in order to be "salvaged".

[froo]

I think making a soup army would be cool..

Even moreso, I think maybe adding in some plastic Monsters of Destruction kits and make it an all encompassing Ghur army, really sell the bestial aspect of what it could be.

[Aginor]

I think they should make a "soup battletome" for all the Ogors.

Maybe with the BCR, maybe without them.

But I don't think they should mix them with Grots or Orruks.

[kenshin620]

Well I actually also doubt BCR and Foot Ogors/Gutbusters will come back together (outside of maybe an actual Icebrow unit). As a reminder FEC are still very much separate from Legions of Nagash (though Nighthaunt is a different story, but then again LoN is a strange Battletome compared to more typical books even to the likes of Beasts of Chaos).

Heck Soulblight is an allegiance in LoN book....and yet is still very much limited to the Soulblight keyword. Which is really....strange.

And even the specific themes within AoS can be altered from the original WFB concept. I'm still surprised that elf assassins aren't with DoK, literally back in WFB being the "male version" of Witch Elves (though I think there can be female ones) .

(Though I still have a 20% belief grots might actually be one book.)

 

I think the only AoS battletome/allegiance I can think of that will become "obsolete" will be Skaven Pestilens (and also the Skyre rules). Theres just waaay too many hints Skaven will recombine.