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LoN after grimghast reapers.


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2 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Nagash is just an absurd model. His rules were written in the era where AoS didn't have points and was fundamentally designed to be a narrative game rather than a competitive one. He should have been entirely re-written when LoN came out to ensure that his rules were closer in line with other more recently released name heroes. I personally believe without a full rules rewrite he is impossible to balance. If you keep putting him up in points he either becomes impossible to include in a 2k game, totally undesirable because he limits other models you need to make any form of list work, or he's still so good that you pay the price anyway.

Nagash is not as broken as you depict him to be! In a tournament with access to realm spells, yes he is super strong but without them he is just good. For 800pts you expect something powerful. 

 

If they make that a wizard can chose a spell from a realm instead of one from their own lore. It would help him be fair and also incite people to use the realm more because they are a nice addition to the game for the most part! More choice are always better! ;)

 

The second thing that is too strong on Nagash is his hand of dust spell. Every ability in the game that just slays models without any recourse is just not fun! So I would change all of them to do a big number of MW instead. It could be a fixed number that degrades with his profile or else a number of dice that could also degrade. But it need to be a high amount of mortal wounds done because he's a god after all, you expect a god to be able to munch a little hero just with a glance. So hand of dust should be able to kill most low wounds models in the game when Nagash is at full life.

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3 hours ago, Cblackaus said:

Dare I say it but maybe the issue isn’t the list? 

I was pleasantly surprised with the GT placing for ghosts tbh. Having looked at all of the major tournaments since 2.0 dropped, it literally been Blackout and this GT where ghosts have done well, and that's it, and there has been a lot of tournaments as well and yet only 2 top 10 places, that for me is not the signs of a good army. Also both of these top 10 placings were won by very competent players. That GT list in the hands of 95% of other ghost players (myself included) would lose the majority of games, but just because a tiny handful of the top players can make an army work without spamming it's key unit (grims), isn't reason to nerf them and assume that everything will be fine.

As someone else on this thread mentioned, there are loads of other decent units in the game right now that can just mow through whatever is in their path, yet there are no cries for them to be nerfed, yet the amount of salt around grims is growing a lot. Sure they could be nerfed and then make them useless to both ghosts and LoN but it won't stop people being salty about things they don't like. Again as someone else said, after grims it will be blades, after blades it will be harridans, after harridans it will rasps.

I am fully expecting a massive nerfing to grims and also to some of our other factions mechanics tbh, as the 10+ charge has literally broken games for me, it's gone from me losing badly to winning by a massive margin, it's not skill that does it, it's pure luck, but it's too effective when it does go off, so I fully expect that it will get nerfed and changed. And then we'll have an army with just it's ethereal save and no hard hitting units, much like it was back in 1.0, back in simpler times, i 'member, back when you knew how the match would go before any dice were rolled, I 'member them times.

Going back to the OP, how will LoN fair after the grims get nerfed, answer is simple, they'll be fine, back to how things were before. How will ghosts fair, we'll have to wait and see I suppose.

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Tbh I’m not expecting a change for Grims. I think they’ll still be too new, even for a February update. Legions of Nagash could see some changes, but I’m not convinced they’re necessary. Legions is hardly pub stomping the competitive scene at the moment, and Nighthaunt even less so

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For those of you talking about how balanced nagash is, his instant kill spell is just stupid that it involves hiding a d6 in your hand, it should just be a 4+ dice roll. As for how good he is overall, the other LoN player in my area has him and despite his wound mitigation he dies quickly because he has a massive kick me sign for spellcasters with high damage spells. Not to mention anything like vordhai that can pop an easy 6 mortal wounds and then charge for even more damage. Nagash lacks combat potential for his cost and could do to lose spells per turn in exchange for better combat potential or aura abilities. As for nh, they get tabled by SC and LoN due to high bravery but my darkoath along with the other chaos players in my area get shredded due to rend becoming useless and low bravery. But because a lot of these low leadership armies having no battletome they aren't as competitive.

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As a lizard player I prefer fighting gg over skeli boys, but I'm no pro. Nor do I pretend to understand the death faction enough to say if the unit is balanced but I don't find gg to be the 'hardest' match up for me so far.

 

Also I think a lot of the ghosts suck sentiment comes from the army being new and not a solved puzzle -- which I think is a great thing. Other places have had years with their army with only slight tweaks recently. I think the two major wins is huge for night haunt. 

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1 hour ago, Future said:

As a lizard player I prefer fighting gg over skeli boys,

as a Lizard identifying race, you ignore that sweet -1 rend so it really devalues GG's hammer aspect. 

 

Let's bring back the discussion to the topic at hand `life after Grimghast`. So let's assume either they're made allies or points increase or something that makes them unusable by LoN. 

what does the current Grimghast bring to the table that other units don't? Here's my 2 cents.

Grimghast's power isn't in its offence, that's a good bonus but it's the ultimate mobile anvil. What does Nagash give Grimghast? Mystic Shield and battleshock immunity? (which answers the question - if you take away their rerolls .. not going to hurt in a Nagash combo as much as you think). What does Grimghast and Chainrasp gives Nagash? Enough bodies and threat to win the attrition game. Skeletons, Grave Guards, et al are too soft to win a sustained attrition fight as they get chewed through against anything with rend. 

Then pack along a Guardian of Souls and Necromancer and you turn this mobile anvil into a Grinding hammer.

Nagash with spell portal gives that hand of dust threat at 21.5" range which is a game breaker. (we need another round of nerf on spell portal specifically targeting 3" spells .. the new grott spell is another good candidate). So combination of debuffs, long range bombardment and 4+ rerolling 1 tanks makes them good battering ram style army. DOK will still absolutely chew through these guys but outside DOK they're probably the second most broken combination in the game?

So what gives us better mobility, decent sustain power and average offensive? I suspect Chainrasp spam is next on the menu.

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@Lucky Snake Eyes

  • The dice roll thing is just an opinion. I find hiding the dice much more fun.
  • Of course your opponent is going to want to kill Nagash. For enemy spellcasters, they have to get through a +3 unbind, then if they get mortal wounds off, every mortal has to go through 6++/4++.
  • Things like Vordrai and Thundertusks are brutal but there are many ways to prepare and mitigate them, then over half their mortals are canceled anyway.
  • If your Nagash gets charged you are not playing Nagash correctly
  • Nagash can heal up what little wounds he takes with spells

I agree that Nagash does not have 800 points of combat (that is because you are paying for other features). You need at least a couple more hammers in your list if you take Nagash.

I have played many games with Nagash since LoN, and I have yet to lose him once. (The last time I lost him was to 9 Dracoth shooting, but that was before the new tome). This is including many local games and tournaments - maybe 20 games so far. In addition to what I said above, he has some of the best debuffs in the game.  At a tournament I was 88-2 for getting my spells off. Nagash lists are some of the strongest in the game right now. Regardless, if you don't know what you are doing, your Nagash will die and you will lose.

Currently I like to take Neferata and Nagash, because this makes Nagash immune to rend, and Neferata is a potent hammer.

 

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