LoN after grimghast reapers.

[Splint]

So it’s become very clear that reapers are an extremely strong unit in LoN armies. They’re fast, have the bodies for objectives, can get VDM, regen and summoned back. In my games they have completely dominated.

 

I have been expecting some sort of nerf, and I don’t think I’m the only one.

So the questions are, what will the nerf be, and if reapers are no longer an option (whether there a better options or simply no longer available for LoN), what units will you be replacing them with.

i expected them to no longer receive the bonuses LoN offers, which I think would still make them a decent choice. They won’t be around all game but can still be healed through heroes and still are hella offensive.

 

though if they are  nerfed harder, I’m really not sure what I’d replace them with.

your thoughts?

[Splint]

Just saw that there was an errata to GB18, nothing on reapers, so maybe we’re safe for now??????

[Tropical Ghost General]

Why would they nerf reapers. They are basically the only thing making bedsheets vaguely competitive at the moment. This isn't a 40k smash captain scenario, grims are good and imo it's what death needed in general from a unit to keep up with the likes of DoK and deepkin. 

[Smavo]

Tbh what should happen is that reapers dont get touched. Grave gaurd should have their points reduced to make them more of a competitive choice. Same goes with morghasts. The reason that reapers are so strong is that everything close to them pales in comparison.

The other GAs have things that are as strong as them if not stronger.

Another big thing is that if they are nerfed them any hope of a decent NH pure force dies with them.

 

TL/DR

Make deaths other choices more competitive with reapers then it would be a much harder decision to take them. Because grave gaurd and the like have greater synergys.

[Splint]

For night haunt, definitely no need for nerfs, and removing LoN keyword wouldn’t affect them but for LoN... well, when a unit can take out a unit of blight kings and marauders in a single turn... and then come back full strength for 1cp

A nerf is warranted.

[Splint]

@Smavo, definitely agree with that. We need some more choices, GG are much slower (but I guess it’s irrelevant if summoned). But the flying on reapers make them very strong. infact I would love to run morghasts. 

just to clarify, I agree a direct nerf to reapers is bad. Also am enjoying the power we have in LoN, but even playing them within the legions, i can see it’s no entirely healthy, 

[Zplash]

I think u should Enjoy it as long as it last.

A Unit with 30 models, 8 move, fly, attacking in double ranks, -1 rend, reroll all failed hit rolls vs. Unit of 5 or more models (LOL), leader mechanic with high Potential for additional mortal wounds, 4+ save and etheral...

And to just round things up, they are able to get pretty easy the buffs like Plus 1 Attack and double activation/pile in. 

I even dont need to mention the resurrect ability... in most cases its not even needed to be the strongest Unit on the table... 

I totally agree if they are nerved NH will need some buffs in exchange... but who want to See 75% double 30 squads of reapers Death lists in Tournament... not to mention the lack of fun in friendly games for your Opponent.

Maybe I miss some points/arguments here... 

Looking forward to some Feedback from you guys why GW shouldnt nerf or increase points for reapers. Sou also mentioned units which are stronger as reapers in other fractions? Im curious which units you had in mind?

[Cursed]

I woul really like that GW bring some of our other units down in points (grave guard, blood knights and Morghast) but sadly most balancing GW seems to be able to do is nerf things hard when they are well performing!

 

So in the next General's handbook, I expect increases in points for grimghast reapers (around 60pts more for a full unit) and Nagash (nerf his hand of dust and maybe point increase) because they were used in a lot of successful lists in a lot of tournaments and when this happens you know GW will use his nerf hammer soon! I'm also afraid they nerf our beloved skeletons! 

[Ravinsild]

If Grave Guard are made cheaper shouldn’t skeletons also? Grave Guard are elite after all and skeletons are battleline. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

Grims are good but can be easily countered in a pure ghost list. I would love to not take 2 x 30 in a 2k list, but we literally don't have anything else that we can use instead of them if they get nerfed. 

[ledha]

prevent LON units to be affected more than once by gravesites

[Ravinsild]

3 hours ago, ledha said:

prevent LON units to be affected more than once by gravesites

Someone call the inquisition because I think we found our heretic. 

[Espy85]

If gw nerf  grimghast the nighthaunt battletome become the worst book in aos era.

Litterally the reapers are only unit that have sense.   Other unit dont work. The ethereal rules dont save the army.

Nerf reapers and this army is dead. 

[AverageBoss]

12 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

If Grave Guard are made cheaper shouldn’t skeletons also? Grave Guard are elite after all and skeletons are battleline. 

Skeletons are fine as is. Gravegaurd are over pointed by quite a bit. They have overall similar damage output, but GG have half the durability for the same points. 120 (for 10)/300 like Bestigors might actually be a good spot for them.

[Cursed]

9 hours ago, Espy85 said:

If gw nerf  grimghast the nighthaunt battletome become the worst book in aos era.

Litterally the reapers are only unit that have sense.   Other unit dont work. The ethereal rules dont save the army.

Nerf reapers and this army is dead. 

they could always do like they did with the black coach!

 

create a Legion Grimghast reapers and a nighthaunts grimghast reapers. Would solve the problem about changing one iteration and not touching another.

[Splint]

 

I think there is some misinterpreting the direction of the nerfs. Of course direct nerfs wouldn’t be the way to do it, and I hope GW see that too.

reapers are strong in LoN, as the title suggest. Reducing their points or any other direct nerf is a bad idea as stated by a few people now, which would really reduce NH’s effectiveness.

what I was pushing for discussing was a LoN Perspective, as this is where they are abused.

as @Cursed and @Smavo have suggested, other units should become a more appealing option. Units like GG and morghast just don’t compare to, reapers!

I could see that reapers have to be allied in to LoN in future, toning them down a good deal!

yet they would still be my go to unit. They still have better movement, bodies to score, could still regen through heroes and hit very hard! When compared to other options

i love the morghast models yet can’t see my self fielding them anytime soon as reapers hit harder are more survivable and have better board presence.

i definitely think units like GG and morghast need to be brought up, through some mechanic not just point adjustments to really compete with reapers.

 

 

[Espy85]

If the gw wanted to focus on the Grave Guard, it would be enough to make it palatable.
Why hit nighthaunts? Also I'm not even sure of this domain of reapers, certainly many are pointing us because better than the GRAVE guard , but the skeletal warriors are still better. 4 attacks with 25mm base and 2 "range, between 80 and 100 attacks, against 2 attacks with 32mm base and 2" range, make about 40 attacks, but in the end both make about 20 wounds.
The potential offensive of the 2 units is similar, I say that rather than raise the cost, it should be lowered, because the only difference between the units is the unchangeable saving throw, which in any case does not make grimghast a resistant unit given the saturation to which we have arrived. 40 save rolls at 4+ still make twenty dead.  And Nighthaunt dont recover many models o wound, as LoN.

[Takaloy]

13 hours ago, Espy85 said:

If gw nerf  grimghast the nighthaunt battletome become the worst book in aos era.

Litterally the reapers are only unit that have sense.   Other unit dont work. The ethereal rules dont save the army.

Nerf reapers and this army is dead. 

counter point: the only reason they make sense is that they're severely undercosted.

Now, I'm not going to repeat the hardline our Nurgle friend says (every faction looks overpowered when viewed in certain angle, like Nurgle who has everything , resilience and speed?) but have you considered the statement "the only unit that have sense" is not because all other units are poor, but that they're too efficient points wise? 

Take for example, I think Chainrasp are an amazing unit. They're not as offensive as skeletons (because of the 2" range) but rerolling wounds *and* 5+ immune to rend makes them really good anvil unit. They're also faster than Skeletons.

Grimghast reapers should be 160/420 points. That'll make them still very competitive, competing directly with Hexwraith.

I think a light touch should fix the Grimghast problem. As it's been mentioned, on paper at 160 they're still superior to Grave Guard. They provide the mobility and resilience that GG doesn't but GG can absorb buffs better. -hit is less devastating to GG than it is to Grimghasts.

Just 2 penny from a newbie...

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Several people have mentioned grave guard as a reaper alternative. I would agree that gg should be the deathrattle equivalent but feel there too expensive for what you get. @Ravinsild brought up a good point about gg being elite skeles and lowering there cost would also require lowering the cost of skeles. I feel skeles are good where they're at for battleline fodder, tho gg could use some buffing to make them more elite. Personally I would pitch the idea of an extra wound per model or a better save since they're made of paper. Another alternative would be adding a unique unit member similar to the extoller of shyish from the grimghasts, something that has a more unique effect it adds to the unit. Alternatively you could play up to the latter half of the unit name and let them eat wounds for the general or all non-behemoth heroes in the fight phase. @Takaloy made a good point in gg being a better debuff sponge but most people I have played against don't bother throwing debuffs on my gg and just try to rush them down with cav that have rend (I only have 10 gg models so i run them as a unit of 10). Until a new unit that fills the same niche is released or gg get better, grimghasts will be the go-to unit for LoN, and if that nerf comes for them then we'll be worse off for it.

[Espy85]

I play nh and i sure that the army  la not good that seems. The grimghast in nh  army dont need be nerfed. If a problem is lon, why  hit nighthaunt? Our elite army male poor damage, bladegheist  make 8-9 wound, dreadscythe 15 or less, and die easy, vero easy.  Repeat, if gw nerf grimghast this army is dead, no LoN that have skeleton,grave Guard or morghast, bit nighthaunt. Look the tournament result, nighthaunt is true down in graduatory. 

[Takaloy]

23 minutes ago, Espy85 said:

I play nh and i sure that the army  la not good that seems. The grimghast in nh  army dont need be nerfed. If a problem is lon, why  hit nighthaunt? Our elite army male poor damage, bladegheist  make 8-9 wound, dreadscythe 15 or less, and die easy, vero easy.  Repeat, if gw nerf grimghast this army is dead, no LoN that have skeleton,grave Guard or morghast, bit nighthaunt. Look the tournament result, nighthaunt is true down in graduatory. 

I have no idea how you jump to the conclusion the army is *dead* if Grimghast is nerfed. Grimghast isn't the strongest horde unit in Nighthaunt, it's the strongest horde in the Death army.  It's disproportionately strong, it should be balanced internally or else you have only one unit in the entire battletome. 

 

If you look at the army list / play in Angelcore, the top Death armies are basically full Nighthaunt with Nagash and a few tax units. Or Nighthaunt with Arkhan (spirit hosts tactical spam).
 

[Espy85]

the reapers are the only unit of nighthaunts that make wounds. If the problem is their use in the LoN solve it by prohibiting their use in that book. Wrong from the beginning and made only to insert the model of soul war box into death lists, waiting for the entire army to come out on the market. The nighthaunts do not have other units so good, if you take it off, or raise the price, LoN does not change anything, because it has many other options, but the nighthaunts put us too much to disappear from the field.
The other NH battlelines have a potential offensive too low and do not have the right resistance to play of attrition. Hexwraith cost too much to be deployed en masse, the spirit host hit 5+.
The elite like bladegheist have little resistance and they make few wounds, because of the 32 bases in pile-in attacks with few models.
I do not find it right to nerf nighthaunts. Sorry. 

[Takaloy]

15 minutes ago, Espy85 said:

 If the problem is their use in the LoN solve it by prohibiting their use in that book. 

An assumption. Also I think you're missing the point. If you're happy to have only one unit in your army, fair play but I rather all options are viable.

[Espy85]

I would also like more choices, at the end I play only one unit of 30 reapers, the rest are the dreadscythe and the myrmourn for the  shrieker host. if with a nerf the reapers improve the rest, I would be satisfied, but I do not think it would happen. let's assume that they raise the cost of the reapers to 180/10, then how better is the rest? because if you limit yourself to raising the cost of the reapers, in my opinion, bring the players to keep out the other units to play only them. And it would be a pity. You must make sure that a player is encouraged to play the other units as well.

[dmorley21]

3 hours ago, Takaloy said:

counter point: the only reason they make sense is that they're severely undercosted.

...but have you considered the statement "the only unit that have sense" is not because all other units are poor, but that they're too efficient points wise? 

Take for example, I think Chainrasp are an amazing unit. They're not as offensive as skeletons (because of the 2" range) but rerolling wounds *and* 5+ immune to rend makes them really good anvil unit. They're also faster than Skeletons.

Grimghast reapers should be 160/420 points. That'll make them still very competitive, competing directly with Hexwraith.

I think a light touch should fix the Grimghast problem. As it's been mentioned, on paper at 160 they're still superior to Grave Guard. They provide the mobility and resilience that GG doesn't but GG can absorb buffs better. -hit is less devastating to GG than it is to Grimghasts.

Just 2 penny from a newbie...

Also a newbie here and just played my first 3 games of AoS at 1000 pts and fielded a unit of 20 Reapers. They were definitely good, but my opponents had units that were at their level. A unit of 10 Black Knights wiped them out in one attack (and would have wiped them out even if there had been 30). A unit of 20 Phoenix Guard were able to outlast them over the course of 3 turns. Honestly, combat wise, they only seemed a little better than my opponent's unit of 40 Skeletons.

Granted, I know they're more mobile, but their large bases can be a hindrance.

2 hours ago, Takaloy said:

I have no idea how you jump to the conclusion the army is *dead* if Grimghast is nerfed. Grimghast isn't the strongest horde unit in Nighthaunt, it's the strongest horde in the Death army.  It's disproportionately strong, it should be balanced internally or else you have only one unit in the entire battletome.

If you look at the army list / play in Angelcore, the top Death armies are basically full Nighthaunt with Nagash and a few tax units. Or Nighthaunt with Arkhan (spirit hosts tactical spam).
 

Well, based on tournaments, Nighthaunt already is not doing well competitively as a force. They won once , have not placed top 10 since (as far as I know), and it's rare to see them even in the top half of armies at a tournament. 

I just looked at the Angelcore lists, and didn't see a single Nighthaunt list. All of the lists are Legions of Nagash featuring Nighthaunt units.

Grimghast Reapers play differently in the different armies. They're the best and only true hammer unit that Nighthaunt have whereas they're an elite horde unit in Legions of Nagash and are outclassed by Black Knights in terms of a hammer dealing damage.

If they're made more expensive in Nighthaunt, an army that is already struggling to be competitive is going to suffer even more unless there's a points reduction for a lot of the other units/heroes.

 

As for Grave Guard, I know that it seems like GW doesn't re-write rules, so this is wish listing, but would they be worth their points if their Cursed Blades dealt a mortal wound on a 6 like Frightful Touch?