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Lucky Snake Eyes

Expanding on Death: Not Enough Flavour

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Just to throw my two cents into the ring, I honestly really like how interconnected, yet opposed all of the factions within Death are. I personally, dislike the idea of there being a "rebellious" faction of the dead, in the sense that it undermines the solidarity of Nagash as the god of Death. 

Its like saying there should be rebellious Stormcast, or malal Chaos Warriors. Its just sort of gimmicky in a sense, when we already have a logical excuse for why Undead fight Undead.

 

Now as for new undead? The sky is the limit! From Nautical undead, to revamped Tomb Kings held under Nagashes sway, to Deadwalker Hordes, and all sorts of undead creatures.

I personally would love to see Deadwalkers get a nice update with a kit or two, followed by an update for Deathrattle. A update for FEC would be lovely as well, and I can think of all the awesome stuff they could give them. Ushoran, Moratarch of Madness? Settra, Mortarch of Regret? Isabella, Mortarch of Grief? 

Theres a lot of intresting ways they could take both the models and the alliance overall, from revining Tomb Kings to adding in a Frankenstein like faction.

But no matter how you slice it, Nagash should still be the top dog.

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9 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

Just to throw my two cents into the ring, I honestly really like how interconnected, yet opposed all of the factions within Death are. I personally, dislike the idea of there being a "rebellious" faction of the dead, in the sense that it undermines the solidarity of Nagash as the god of Death. 

Its like saying there should be rebellious Stormcast, or malal Chaos Warriors. Its just sort of gimmicky in a sense, when we already have a logical excuse for why Undead fight Undead.

 

Now as for new undead? The sky is the limit! From Nautical undead, to revamped Tomb Kings held under Nagashes sway, to Deadwalker Hordes, and all sorts of undead creatures.

I personally would love to see Deadwalkers get a nice update with a kit or two, followed by an update for Deathrattle. A update for FEC would be lovely as well, and I can think of all the awesome stuff they could give them. Ushoran, Moratarch of Madness? Settra, Mortarch of Regret? Isabella, Mortarch of Grief? 

Theres a lot of intresting ways they could take both the models and the alliance overall, from revining Tomb Kings to adding in a Frankenstein like faction.

But no matter how you slice it, Nagash should still be the top dog.

Stormcasts are a significantly smaller faction and chaos infights all the time when archaon isn't around. Nagash honestly doesn't deserve to hold his position and the lore proves he can be denied. Vordhai betrayed nagash and manbaby is waiting for his chance to do the same. Sure having lesser generals or even the mortarchs infight for bone daddy's favour is neat and all butringing back other characters who hate nagash like Settra or Vlad to undermine him makes sense as much like the other alliances, not all the undead swear fealty to the same god and merely work together out of everyone else hating them. Even the FC aren't all unified under nagash, many just trail his armies for easy food and some outright hate him.

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53 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

Stormcasts are a significantly smaller faction and chaos infights all the time when archaon isn't around. Nagash honestly doesn't deserve to hold his position and the lore proves he can be denied. Vordhai betrayed nagash and manbaby is waiting for his chance to do the same. Sure having lesser generals or even the mortarchs infight for bone daddy's favour is neat and all butringing back other characters who hate nagash like Settra or Vlad to undermine him makes sense as much like the other alliances, not all the undead swear fealty to the same god and merely work together out of everyone else hating them. Even the FC aren't all unified under nagash, many just trail his armies for easy food and some outright hate him.

Well, honestly, last time I checked, Stormcast and the entirety of GA: Death are about the same size, when looking at distinct model counts. Thats not mentioning all the OTHER factions that pledge allegiance to Sigmar, IE, freeguild, Devoted of Sigmar, etc. 

And as for Chaos, what I meant by that isn't that Chaos always works together, I mean that there isn't a faction in Chaos that is anti-Chaos, unless you count Archie as that. 

And honestly, I'll argue that the point of GA: Death IS that they're enthralled by Nagash. Thats sort of what makes them Death, rather than Order that happens to be undead. Being undead, master of souls is sort of Nagash's whole schtick in AoS, and is a reason that the Soul Wars is even a thing at all. And if you don't think Nagash doesn't deserve to be the master of Undead, I think we'll have to agree to disagree, because looking at the literal millenia he spent hunting down other gods in AoS, and the insane stuff he did in WHFB, shows to me that he is more than worthy. Dude invented the practice of Necromancy; how can you argue that?

Beyond that, its silly to say that Undead could somehow resist Nagash; Nagash IS Death. He is the end of all things. Just as much as Sigmar bestows Stormcast a part of his being, so too does Nagash bestow a portion of himself into all Undead. Even Arkhan, Mannfred, Neferata, Olynder, all are part of him. And FEC don't really support the idea either; the only Undead that is "apperantly" free of Nagash's control is Ushoran, and he hasn't had much lore since the FEC Battletome itself.

Nagash is All, All are one in Nagash, my man. If you wanna make your dudes that hate Nagash, thats definetly cool and very possible. But I think having a "rogue" undead faction would just go against the premisis of GA: Death.

Besides, I hope they do what Nighthaunt did, and give LoN some future goodies.

 

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Ever since we got Sylvania in Storm of Chaos in 6th Edition and you could have living militia fighting alongside graveguard I've always been interested in a mortal-death hybrid faction.

After reading Nagash the Undying King recently, even more so, it was really fascinating to get some insight into the life of mortals in Shyish. I would love for Deathlords to be the next Death faction, the ones in the novel  seemed much more tribal and spiritualistic compared to the more.. "intellectual" head buried in books type, necromancers we are used to.

Some really cool ideas for units too: how about a mortal levy/militia unit where every model killed is turned into a zombie? Or in one of the Malign Portents short stories, we see human crossbowmen steadying their weapons on skeleton spearmen and using them as cover, some very interesting opportunities to combine mortals and undead into an army.

Edited by The Darkest Soul

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28 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

Well, honestly, last time I checked, Stormcast and the entirety of GA: Death are about the same size, when looking at distinct model counts. Thats not mentioning all the OTHER factions that pledge allegiance to Sigmar, IE, freeguild, Devoted of Sigmar, etc. 

And as for Chaos, what I meant by that isn't that Chaos always works together, I mean that there isn't a faction in Chaos that is anti-Chaos, unless you count Archie as that. 

And honestly, I'll argue that the point of GA: Death IS that they're enthralled by Nagash. Thats sort of what makes them Death, rather than Order that happens to be undead. Being undead, master of souls is sort of Nagash's whole schtick in AoS, and is a reason that the Soul Wars is even a thing at all. And if you don't think Nagash doesn't deserve to be the master of Undead, I think we'll have to agree to disagree, because looking at the literal millenia he spent hunting down other gods in AoS, and the insane stuff he did in WHFB, shows to me that he is more than worthy. Dude invented the practice of Necromancy; how can you argue that?

Beyond that, its silly to say that Undead could somehow resist Nagash; Nagash IS Death. He is the end of all things. Just as much as Sigmar bestows Stormcast a part of his being, so too does Nagash bestow a portion of himself into all Undead. Even Arkhan, Mannfred, Neferata, Olynder, all are part of him. And FEC don't really support the idea either; the only Undead that is "apperantly" free of Nagash's control is Ushoran, and he hasn't had much lore since the FEC Battletome itself.

Nagash is All, All are one in Nagash, my man. If you wanna make your dudes that hate Nagash, thats definetly cool and very possible. But I think having a "rogue" undead faction would just go against the premisis of GA: Death.

Besides, I hope they do what Nighthaunt did, and give LoN some future goodies.

 

I feel the premise of GA death is that they are all well, undead or at least soulblighted in the case of FC. And while yes tabletop wise the stormboys are just as big, but death is endless and ever growing, lorewise death could very well be the biggest alliance numbers wise. As for worshippers well, mindless puppets and enslaved spirits don't really count but theirs necromancers and death cults and vampires aside from that. Let's not forget that although Vlad begrudgingly became a mortarch, he ignored nagash's orders to go help the empire/brettonia fend off chaos. Settra is also another example of someone nagash absolutely could not bend to his will. Besides, just because a potential death faction is anti-nagash doesn't remove the premise of them being presumably soulblighted as vamps seem to have the most free will and thus by their very nature would be anti-order. And like I brought up, nagash's control isn't absolute, Vordhai nearly ended nagash for good. I'll agree that nagash has done a lot to become the defacto face of death but I feel there's room for more to be added in death, both in the form of nagash lovers and folks that may worship death gods that escaped nagash or undead that rally around independent vampires.

**This also has to do with the way I interpret the soulblight working given the source material. Soulblight isn't traditional necromancy and thus the vampire isn't bound to a necromancer and by extension nagash, which is why nagash uses unruly vampires like ushoran as an example because he has no other way to keep them in line. Any vampire with big enough balls can potentially betray nagash like vordhai did. Even manfred (who should at this point be the mortarch of treachery) betrayed and killed luthor harkon who was also a mortarch at the time (i may be misremembering that, it's been a while since i read the end times novels)

Edited by Lucky Snake Eyes

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1 hour ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

Nagash honestly doesn't deserve to hold his position

Whaaaaat??? @moderator, can we have a ban-hammer here?!

best just call the inquisition down on you... buddy

15 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

unless you count Archie as that.

Isn’t that canon? I though he gave them the stiff middle finger, but they like, before he kills all our champions AGAIN.

 

18 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

If you wanna make your dudes that hate Nagash, thats definetly cool and very possible. 

Kinda reminds me of a Felix&gotrek Book, where they stumbled upon the Vampire Domination Amulet by N... you can hate him all you want, but if he says: JUMP (in his preacher funny voice)... you start hopping, if you love it or hate it, was not asked and is not relevant.

so there is a lot of possible fluffy ways to expand on DA:Death with runaway gods and creatures. And I seriously hope GW keeps up the fluff

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@Honk I made an edit to my earlier post further explaining my stance on why I believe at least vamps can pull an archie to nagash if they where ballsy enough. Though it would take boons from surviving death gods or some hero of the old world to show up given that nagash's raw power keeps even manny on a short leash.

 

I will state for the record that yes all skele boys, ghosts and constructs brought about by necromancy are all bound to the whims of the big bone daddy himself, but as shown by the ghouls of the flesh eaters soulblighted creatures don't play by the same rules and don't all have to bow down to nagash. 

Edited by Lucky Snake Eyes

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Abhorash is the only vampire to have explicitly overcome the curse. He’s the best bet in my opinion, from a strictly lore view. Don’t expect to ever see a model and rules of him ?

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And @Undeadly regarding your suggestions for new mortarchs:

Settra does not bow, he rules. He already turned down the offer of mortarch once and turned down being a champion of chaos, he's a loose cannon and is the best candidate for a rogue death army.

Isabella is a solid maybe, Vlad was mortarch of shadow before sacrificing himself to save her (pour out a blood chalice for the best vamp of WFB) so maybe nagash could use the potential reviving of vlad to keep isabella in line and take over the mantle of shadows or something new.

Ushoran seems pretty likely as it would better represent courts loyal to nagash and would finally give that army a named character. 

I'd also like to pitch the idea of a mortal mortarch in the form of a necromancer or death cultist to represent the living worshipers of death.

A new pirate vamp would also be a good way to ride the vampire coast hype and fill the currently empty mortarch of abyss spot.

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6 minutes ago, El Syf said:

Abhorash is the only vampire to have explicitly overcome the curse. He’s the best bet in my opinion, from a strictly lore view. Don’t expect to ever see a model and rules of him ?

has Abhorash even gotten a mention in AoS?

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10 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

has Abhorash even gotten a mention in AoS?

He did but in Spears of Shadow. He trained one of the character Adhema of Nuhlamia. He's named The Blood Dragon. Not explicitly said that he is Abhorash but with a name like that and the fact that he just sit on the top of a mountain.....too much similarities...

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Blood_Dragon

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6 minutes ago, Harioch said:

He did but in Spears of Shadow. He trained one of the character Adhema of Nuhlamia. He's named The Blood Dragon. Not explicitly said that he is Abhorash but with a name like that and the fact that he just sit on the top of a mountain.....too much similarities...

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Blood_Dragon

Sounds like he needs to come off that mountain and kick some ass. Unless another big primordial dragon shows up and he has to go all grimnir on it. Which I wouldn't mind either, be great if we got models for him and said proposed dragon, but i'll settle for him becoming a named character for soulblight or LoB.

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13 hours ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

at least vamps can pull an archie to nagash if they where ballsy enough. 

Totally on your side with that and even one up, they all can get/and have gotten ideas when daddy is not looking. Tons of literature out there seeing neffi and manni at funny backstab, positioning trying to get away with stuff attempts...

tmk only arkhan has stayed true and faithful (when aware that N is existing) all the others, more kinda lack the backbone to openly spit in his face (mighty Settra of course excluded).

they are all bound to their god/master if they like it or not. Most of them psychopathic rulers before undead with delusions, what changed in death... necromancers, vamps, they all want a bigger piece of cake, want knowledge and mastery over first of all themselves and then more.

Being a dominated thrall to a god-king only sits well with stupid stormcasts ??

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3 hours ago, Honk said:

Being a dominated thrall to a god-king only sits well with stupid stormcasts ??

That brings up one of the things that bothers me about the AoS interpretation of nagash, Sigmar, a god who's domain has nothing to do with the cycle of death, managed to steal nagash's cheerios to make the stormcasts. The elven gods doing it makes a little more sense since slaanesh was the involuntary middle man, but i find it silly that sigmar had the power to steal a few hundred thousand souls from nagash. But i suppose they need some reason to have a posterboy army of super humans. (on a side note, sigmar is totally a chaos god, he's the only other god directly empowered by prayer and he makes stormcasts using the anvil of apotheosis, just a little on the nose with that one gw) I'd like to see some actual death gods try to take a piece of nagash's cake, or powerful vamps at least. The only reason Vlad accepted the role of mortarch in the end times (even then he ignored most of his orders to live the ream of being an elector count) was because nagash leveraged isabellas soul, only for nurgle to bring the loving couple back together... sort of. I also just want more Arkhan, the guy is somehow the cheapest mortarch despite being second to only the big man himself. I'd like to see some sacrament themed units or at least Arkhans disciples as a stronger necromancer hero option.

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1 hour ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

on a side note, sigmar is totally a chaos god, he's the only other god directly empowered by prayer

All gods are empowered by prayers that's what Morathi is trying to exploit to become a godess.

Edited by michu

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10 minutes ago, michu said:

All gods are empowered by prayers that's what Morathi try to exploit to become a godess.

I don't remember reference to any worshipers of nagash or alariel praying directly to them, unless the sylvaneth's weird song thing counts.

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I think it counts as it doesn't have to be prayer - just believing is enough. Chaos gods feeds not only on prayers but mostly on emotions and feelings. That's why they are stronger - you don't have to believe in Khorne when you a warrior, because every blood you spilled empowers him.

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1 hour ago, michu said:

I think it counts as it doesn't have to be prayer - just believing is enough. Chaos gods feeds not only on prayers but mostly on emotions and feelings. That's why they are stronger - you don't have to believe in Khorne when you a warrior, because every blood you spilled empowers him.

not every blood! If you kill someone and liked it, Khorne gains power.

If you are killing someone by necessity example you protected your city/family/kingdom. Then Khorne doesn't get anything ;)

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I don't think it's true - Khorne does not care from whence the blood flows. That's the whole schtik of Chaos Gods - no matter what you do you empower them.

Edited by michu

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Regarding other Gods of Death,  The Dread Solstice story "The Forgotten Dead" is all about another Death God (probably from the Age of Myth?) hiding from Nagash.  There is nothing to say this was the only Death God in hiding and it is clear that Nagash is still on the look out.  If Sigmar is on the hunt for alternative God of Death to join his Pantheon, then that could be a nice addition to the Lore and an interesting rival to Nagash.

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3 hours ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

managed to steal nagash's cheerios to make the stormcasts.

Plotarmor is strong in this one...

the concept of godhood is not really clear to me. I mean they ascended during endtimes with the domination of the winds of magic. That was pretty straight forward and pretty good explained.

the Four gods or the whole pantheon resides in the warp and suckle on emotions and the occasional lost/pawned off souls... almost the same, consume enough magic stuff and off you go, destined for greater things. Nagash went all in on the warpstone Buffet back in the days.

where what morr, how Sigmar or Ulric?! Dwarves things? I’m not into this Power of believe thing. Even the chaos gods are not feeding on believe or prayers, but as I see it the corresponding emotions. Slaanesh on a good old bdsm orgy, cranking depravety but also all kinds of excess up to 11. tzeetch goes into scheming, plotting and the ruthless persuit of Knowledge. Khorne in mindless wrath and bloodlust, hate. Nurgle in the decay and the desecration of pure things.

 

A new attempt at godhood needs to siphon off power from one specific strong emotional feeling or consume souls/magic...

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7 minutes ago, Honk said:

Plotarmor is strong in this one...

the concept of godhood is not really clear to me. I mean they ascended during endtimes with the domination of the winds of magic. That was pretty straight forward and pretty good explained.

the Four gods or the whole pantheon resides in the warp and suckle on emotions and the occasional lost/pawned off souls... almost the same, consume enough magic stuff and off you go, destined for greater things. Nagash went all in on the warpstone Buffet back in the days.

where what morr, how Sigmar or Ulric?! Dwarves things? I’m not into this Power of believe thing. Even the chaos gods are not feeding on believe or prayers, but as I see it the corresponding emotions. Slaanesh on a good old bdsm orgy, cranking depravety but also all kinds of excess up to 11. tzeetch goes into scheming, plotting and the ruthless persuit of Knowledge. Khorne in mindless wrath and bloodlust, hate. Nurgle in the decay and the desecration of pure things.

 

A new attempt at godhood needs to siphon off power from one specific strong emotional feeling or consume souls/magic...

We don't really know if prayer and worship where necessary for the old world gods do we? We know for the chaos gods because that's how warp shenanigans work but did Isha or morr need prayer to survive? Sigmar just kinda walked off and became a god. As for Ulric, did he even take part in the end times? I don't remember. Also unlike the gods of mortal races, the chaos gods have non-violent aspects as well, khorne has honour as an aspect, tzeench can be argued to be neutral in the first place with his domain being change and knowledge, nurgle is a god of renewal as well as decay even if his idea of renewal is becoming a pox walker, he's also arguably a god of family and genuinely means no harm, Slaanesh is excess in all things good or bad and is the patron of perfection. 

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I still don't get why death needs to be nagash centric other than the half of FEC that follow the Carrion King who haven't been mentioned since the FEC battletome

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28 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

genuinely means no harm,

Please report immediately to your local inquisitioner for counseling... blamm 

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