Expanding on Death: Not Enough Flavour

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

With the recent reveal of the Vampire coasts for Total War Wahammer 2, I can't help but look at that and wish we had that in AoS. Death feels very... generic, and this is coming from a VC fanboy from the days of 8th edition fantasy. Nighthaunt was a cool addition to the alliance and flesh eater courts have awesome lore despite their small roster and samey appearances. Looking at the other alliances, there is so much variety to be seen even among same race armies.  KO and FS despite both being duardin (that's the new name for the dwarves right?) look completely different and play completely different. I feel death doesn't quite have the same flare. Your options are vampires and zombies/skeles, ghosts or cannibals. Pretty meh when you put it like that. But vampire pirates? That's a little more eye catching. I'd even be behind legion of sacrament getting tomb kings units or being expanded into a new tomb kings successor army, giving a little more variety to the bone boys that make up the fodder of many death lists. I'd also like to see the death "constructs" be expanded on. More stuff like the morghasts and the abyssals, I like the idea of "let's build this thing and shove a soul in it and see what happens" It's a cooler concept to me than "zombie this" or "ghost of that". Anyone else have any ideas on what could be done to bring more style to death?

[TheWilddog]

I have to agree overall.  While the old vampire line has some great models (the VLOZD and the Coven Throne in particular) they are a little lacking in a massively coherent theme.  I love the FEC fluff and would love some models that really evoke the theme better.  I think the Nighthaunt release comes the closest to having a big splashy theme but I ultimately agree with you that while they are great models they feel a little bit repetitive, especially when compared to other big releases like Deepkin and KO. I think part of the problem is Death being tied up under Nagash.  Since they all set under his banner it is hard to really push a totally different aesthetic.  I would love for them to really let loose conceptually with Death and see where they could push them.  

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

So perhaps an anti-nagash faction like vampire rebels would be fitting? Maybe bringing back Isabella Von Carstein as the central hero since she could within reason have survived the end times? Then you could include living thralls or some other more unique units.

[TheWilddog]

10 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

So perhaps an anti-nagash faction like vampire rebels would be fitting? Maybe bringing back Isabella Von Carstein as the central hero since she could within reason have survived the end times? Then you could include living thralls or some other more unique units.

I think that would be a great start.  A vampire release with some updated Blood Knights, some nice new bats and maybe some thralls as infantry/battleline. However, I really want to see them push even beyond this. Open up the house of ideas and take a swing for the fences.  Whether that is pirate vampires with giant crabs and wooden automatons or something completely new, I just want them to take some conceptual risks with Death like they have with the other factions. Again while I love the Nighthaunt release, but I think that it was ultimately too conceptually safe. 

[kenshin620]

Well the problem is that currently Legions of Nagash, Flesh Eaters, and technically parts of Nighthaunt all once belonged in one book back in WFB. Heck you could shove new NH into Vampire Counts and people probably would have thought "neat". I mean other than the new NH models and the Shade Spire Bands, all Death miniatures are Vampire Counts+End Times.

I mean it wouldn't be so bad if TK were still around. At least they enjoy paintjobs other than black!

 

7 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

So perhaps an anti-nagash faction like vampire rebels would be fitting? Maybe bringing back Isabella Von Carstein as the central hero since she could within reason have survived the end times? Then you could include living thralls or some other more unique units.

If theres ever going to be a Death Rebel faction, shouldn't it be Settra? He REALLY hates Nagash. Or should everyone that Nagash snubbed back in the old world form a faction?

 

But that is the issue, there is only one Death God. And he has near limitless control over Death. Unless some other comparable power shows up, he can just sick his Mortarchs into controlling whatever undead thing shows up. I mean Chaos has at least 5 gods, more if you count Chaos Dwarfs. Order has several, whether alive, dead, or MIA. Destruction...well they haven't really expanded their pantheon beyond GorkaMorka but there are still hints at The Bad Moon, the Spider God, and the Maw could totally come back. I wouldn't be surprised if BCR even expanded the Everwinter.

I suggested that while maybe not going full different army, I think each Legion of Nagash should gain their own unique units and heroes. So you have a pool of "Common Units" (current LoN stuff) but each Legion then has their own things. Sure its still....death, but at least 70-80% of each legion list wouldn't be the same units!

Also FCE really need new models! The fact that you only need to buy Start Collecting sets and an occasional Varghulf shows how limted their model range is.

[Lemon Knuckles]

Nihilistic mortal death cults.

[Harioch]

I think that's easier to expend Death's themes than we think because there are many "races" in our Allegiance. If we compare ourselves with Order who got plenty of different races like Aelves, Duardins, Seraphons, Humans and Sylvaneth; we got zombies, ghosts, vampires, skeletons, ghouls (and maybe mortals ?).

There are many things we can do with that (few ideas):

Skeletons: Could be the traditional dead legions. A Tomb kings' army with, instead of egyptian aesthetic, a Morghast/Nagash/Arkhan look for armors and weapons. But they can also be the pirates you (and I) want.

Zombies: Swamps, voodoo necromancers, etc OR Frankenstein zombies: bringing a steampunk vibe that AoS is doing right now and that can be expand to other Allegiance than just Order (Skryre, Gobs, etc.)

Vampires: You can put them in every situation a mortal can do. You want a vampire pirate ? you want a vampire knight ? a vampire cleric ? a vampire barbarian ? It's all possible ...so yeah pretty much everything is possible to them.

We can also have some mortals, cultists of Nagash like priests or/with assassins tied to bring special souls to Nagash. There can also be some Werewolves but unlike other medias, they could act like some cerberus. Guarding the realm of Shyish from souls-stealers. Or even dead druids, the opposite of Alarielle with a demi-god of decay ? Plus we already got Wraithfleet back in Firestorm but sadly it was just an Allegiance, no new models. But it could be some day...

I think the problem with Nagash, being the only god in his Allegiance, is a false one. Soul Wars already stated that Nagash is many. He has many aspect and all are, it seems, god or demi-gods. Don't know if they are Mortarchs but at least we could be seeing them in the future leading some factions. And I'm not counting the various Death gods that could oppose him (even if they are not powerful enough).

[kenshin620]

23 minutes ago, Harioch said:

I think that's easier to expend Death's themes than we think because there are many "races" in our Allegiance. If we compare ourselves with Order who got plenty of different races like Aelves, Duardins, Seraphons, Humans and Sylvaneth; we got zombies, ghosts, vampires, skeletons, ghouls (and maybe mortals ?).

Bring back the Cursed Company! Surely the bones of orruks, duardins, and others (except seraphon, stupid daemons) can be salvaged! ☠️

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Some good points have been brought up. It would be smart to bring in mortal death followers aside from the necromancer. I like the idea of each legion getting unique stuff, I could totally see sacrament getting a TK vibe. Settra was another character I considered for a death rebel faction but as I recall as of end times he was left as a severed head in the desert. Soulblight in it's entirety could be expanded into an elite army with vampires filling every role with a compliment of more vargheist style monsters for monster mashes and bat variants for fodder. Death had a lot of cool unused concepts as well back in WFB, like the necrofex colossus, literally a golem made of wood or metal with zombies sewn in as muscle, with a heart made of still living victims and infused with the souls of the necromancers victims. The things where supposed to be huge and I believe the large ship constructs in vampire coast are a pirate themed variant. I thought we'd be going more in a direction like this when the morghasts where revealed, with nagash back in business it would make sense to see more abstract death units not bound by the conventional means of resurrecting a corpse or spirit.

[Vasshpit]

3 hours ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

Nihilistic mortal death cults.

This! I always thought some faction in the theme of the Diablo 3 Witchdoctor would be great!!

 

Also, this piece of art from the core book definitely puts my worries aside and lets me know that great things are coming. 

Be patient. I'm a Destro and Death player so I do sympathize with everyone on concerns. 

AoS is still fairly new and being fleshed out. Keep that in mind. 

 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

14 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

Also, this piece of art from the core book definitely puts my worries aside and lets me know that great things are coming. 

AoS is still fairly new and being fleshed out. Keep that in mind. 

 

I completely forgot about this artwork. An army of this type of stuff would be really cool. I know we're only 2 years in but we're still missing some major factions such as light and shadow aelves (that's the new word for the elf race right?). I get that armies take time to design, sculpt and playtest, but alot of armies like seraphon, Legions of nagash, slaves to darkness and skaven are all using old WFB units still. While there's nothing wrong with reusing perfectly good models, I feel they haven't embraced the more stylistic approach to fantasy they've been trying to set. New armies that launched during AoS like KO and Ironjaws are cool and lean more into the new style but there rosters are small and at least with my experience with KO players, the 400pt ally limit really hinders their ability to bring in units that can fill the niches left open by the small allegiance roster. 

[Honk]

11 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

But that is the issue, there is only one Death God. And he has near limitless control over Death.

I thought the flesh eater courts are kinda undecided on that note. Some refer him as a god, others are afraid of him...

while also being technically living (ghouls and such) and degenerated into deathlike, not raised/summoned/built like skellis/ghosts/morghasts

8 hours ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

as I recall as of end times he was left as a severed head in the desert.

Didn’t the chaos gods tempt him to backstab Nagash after he kick his butt crumbled by him? They gave him a new body, a kopesh and told him to open the can, he responded „nobody commands settra!!!“ and charged the warp rift?!

 

At the end of the day GW is trying to make money, the more the better. That always kinda hinders the broader more experimental approach to faction design. What will appease and bring in new players. Who then buy new models. If people kill my necro I scream at them: show some respect! He is older than you are...‘93

And legal constraints might kill a faction too (total noob but hear me out). If a designer or artist back in the days of TK, conceptually was involved in all/most/many of TK stuff, leaves/gets left, and says FU Gdubs don’t use my stuff anymore, you might have to redesign the altar, ushabdi and the bone giant because IP.

and then we just got a bunch of stuff this year Nurgle, Mermaid Aelves and Nighthaunt. Last year KO with a full brand new design. Game mechanics and stuff

A bunch of stuff got jumpstarted anew Legions of Nagash, SM-Aelves, now beastmen all that has to be designed, tested, interesting rules needed to be invented, balanced, probably scratched and reinvented again...

I hope GW continues to write new books for existing model ranges (poor skaven) and broadens the alliances out 1-2 new armies a year, for the next 5 years.

 

As for death... Nagash rules Supreme in Shyish, but the realms are far an wide indeed.

Vodoo madness in the realm of life?! Settra in the realm of fire (desert), maybe not...metal?!

it would even be possible and pretty cool, if armies could get like a realm specific start collecting box...

1-2 new heros, some interesting units and a monster/construct

[JackStreicher]

12 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Well the problem is that currently Legions of Nagash, Flesh Eaters, and technically parts of Nighthaunt all once belonged in one book back in WFB. Heck you could shove new NH into Vampire Counts and people probably would have thought "neat". I mean other than the new NH models and the Shade Spire Bands, all Death miniatures are Vampire Counts+End Times.

I mean it wouldn't be so bad if TK were still around. At least they enjoy paintjobs other than black!

 

If theres ever going to be a Death Rebel faction, shouldn't it be Settra? He REALLY hates Nagash. Or should everyone that Nagash snubbed back in the old world form a faction?

 

But that is the issue, there is only one Death God. And he has near limitless control over Death. Unless some other comparable power shows up, he can just sick his Mortarchs into controlling whatever undead thing shows up. I mean Chaos has at least 5 gods, more if you count Chaos Dwarfs. Order has several, whether alive, dead, or MIA. Destruction...well they haven't really expanded their pantheon beyond GorkaMorka but there are still hints at The Bad Moon, the Spider God, and the Maw could totally come back. I wouldn't be surprised if BCR even expanded the Everwinter.

I suggested that while maybe not going full different army, I think each Legion of Nagash should gain their own unique units and heroes. So you have a pool of "Common Units" (current LoN stuff) but each Legion then has their own things. Sure its still....death, but at least 70-80% of each legion list wouldn't be the same units!

Also FCE really need new models! The fact that you only need to buy Start Collecting sets and an occasional Varghulf shows how limted their model range is.

Apaprently there is one mighty Death God (of one of the old underworlds) still living and in hiding. So that might be a start

[Honk]

4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

there is one mighty Death God (of one of the old underworlds) still living

?!? What who where why ?!?

and why living ?

[JackStreicher]

2 minutes ago, Honk said:

?!? What who where why ?!?

and why living ?

Not sure where I read it (perhaps Phil Kelly mentioned it in a Live Stream).

Let's scrap living and let's say exists. ^^

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Well @Honk if you're right about Settra then bringing him back would rope in many an old TK fan. And the reason TK can't come back is because their naming scheme was too generic and couldn't be copyrighted, all their art and designs likely belong to gw and not their artists due too contractual obligations.

[Dirtnaps]

53 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Apaprently there is one mighty Death God (of one of the old underworlds) still living and in hiding. So that might be a start

This. I believe in the lore there was supposed to be as many gods of death as there were underworlds and Nagash and the Mortarchs beat the vast majority (if not all except maybe a handful) of them into submission, devouring them and taking their power on as his own in the Age of Myth. So it's absolutely possible that there is at least one god of death hiding within an underworld somewhere. It would also be incredibly easy to write in a rival to Nagash since the Age of Myth is basically unexplored territory lore wise apart from a few key events.
 

12 hours ago, Harioch said:

Skeletons: Could be the traditional dead legions. A Tomb kings' army with, instead of egyptian aesthetic, a Morghast/Nagash/Arkhan look for armors and weapons. But they can also be the pirates you (and I) want.

This is definitely the direction that I think the Deathrattle Legions are most likely to go in, I could also see skeletal constructs fitting in here as well. More creatures like the Morghast and Dread Abyssals, Bones Giants stuff like that, I could also see artillery like the screaming skull catapult return.

12 hours ago, Harioch said:

Zombies: Swamps, voodoo necromancers, etc OR Frankenstein zombies: bringing a steampunk vibe that AoS is doing right now and that can be expand to other Allegiance than just Order (Skryre, Gobs, etc.)

Going off Crelis Arul the Lady of All Flesh from the Soul Wars book I could see Deadwalkers including a at least three different kinds of zombie. Your smart deadwalkers, these would be your heroes and more elite units, stuff like necromancer nobles like Lady Arul herself carried on the backs of the mindless dead while others weave spells to encase themselves in hulking masses of flesh and bone similar to a necromancer in the Soul Wars book for a more in your face kind of hero. The mindless dead, this would be your average deadwalker zombie and any other variants GW can think up along with constructs made of mounds of flesh and bone or a fusion of multiple deadwalkers to make something new. Mortals who worship death, death cultists who see becoming a deadwalker as Nagash's blessing. And the last could be the monstrous zombies, dire wolves, zombie dragons/dracoths, basically anything that isn't based on humans/duardin/aelves. I'm really interested to see what they do with these guys  since I really think they have the potential to do some pretty cool stuff with them. 

I want to say they could include a kind of werewolf unit to soulblight but I think it would step on the toes of the Skin Wolves of chaos, I feel like the soulblight faction aesthetically will be a mix of Manfred and Neferata's designs, I would like to see more bat-like creatures with maybe vampire lords being able to use Terrorghiests as a mount or just being able to use the Terrorghiest on it's own.

 

Flesh Eater Courts is awesome fluff wise but the models aren't to interesting in comparison, they could easily have them drape themselves in skins imitating capes and skulls on their heads like mock helmets or drape themselves in organs like they're jewellery and give them more twisted knightly poses the higher up they are in the hierarchy. This is another faction I'm seriously interested in seeing what they do with it over the next couple of years

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Now that you mention more gods of death... and since the warp is timeless... and Settra ran into the warp... Settra the ruler of death? I'd buy that model in a heartbeat.

[kenshin620]

13 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

This! I always thought some faction in the theme of the Diablo 3 Witchdoctor would be great!!

 

Also, this piece of art from the core book definitely puts my worries aside and lets me know that great things are coming. 

Be patient. I'm a Destro and Death player so I do sympathize with everyone on concerns. 

AoS is still fairly new and being fleshed out. Keep that in mind. 

 

 

To be fair theres TONS of concept art for all the different realms...but in the end thats just concept art.

Like this beast the bonesplitterz are hunting. Very much doubt it'll get a model, whatever it is.

 

 

But yea methinks one way to expand death is to have more reasons for infighting. Sure Mannfred could decide to wack Arkhan on the head, but at least all the other Grand Alliances have reasons for fighting each other decently. Heck Fyreslayers if given enough Ur-Gold would probably not mind attacking Stormcast Eternals.

 

 

BTW I found my old topic months ago where we touched upon some of these kinds of talks, though this was pre Night haunt so I was mostly complaining about the lack of AoS models.

 

[S133arcanite]

2 hours ago, Dirtnaps said:

Going off Crelis Arul the Lady of All Flesh from the Soul Wars book I could see Deadwalkers including a at least three different kinds of zombie. Your smart deadwalkers, these would be your heroes and more elite units, stuff like necromancer nobles like Lady Arul herself carried on the backs of the mindless dead while others weave spells to encase themselves in hulking masses of flesh and bone similar to a necromancer in the Soul Wars book for a more in your face kind of hero. The mindless dead, this would be your average deadwalker zombie and any other variants GW can think up along with constructs made of mounds of flesh and bone or a fusion of multiple deadwalkers to make something new. Mortals who worship death, death cultists who see becoming a deadwalker as Nagash's blessing. And the last could be the monstrous zombies, dire wolves, zombie dragons/dracoths, basically anything that isn't based on humans/duardin/aelves. I'm really interested to see what they do with these guys  since I really think they have the potential to do some pretty cool stuff with them. 

Im actually considering a LoS army with 300 zombies with a Crelis Arul conversion leading it. Probably be pretty competitive, as well

[Cursed]

12 minutes ago, S133arcanite said:

Im actually considering a LoS army with 300 zombies with a Crelis Arul conversion leading it. Probably be pretty competitive, as well

I hope you have a lot of time to play your games! because moving 300 zombies will be a nightmare!  ahah!

[Harioch]

41 minutes ago, Cursed said:

I hope you have a lot of time to play your games! because moving 300 zombies will be a nightmare!  ahah!

If you had 300 zombies assembled and painted I guess you're probably really patient (and dedicated)....it's mostly your opponent who will fear the power of eternal boredom !

[Honk]

5 hours ago, Dirtnaps said:

I believe in the lore there was supposed to be as many gods of death as there were underworlds and Nagash and the Mortarchs beat the vast majority (if not all except maybe a handful) of them into submission, devouring them and taking their power on as his own in the Age of Myth. 

I remember a time... *whisper on*whennagashwasa smallspoiledbratthrowingatantrumaboutnotbeingking*whisper off*

never heard of any other so called death god than our beloved master Nagash!!!

with the necro-bomb thingy in shyish, maybe somewhere in the realms people pray to <800point gods, maybe some behemoth for 550-650 (? Architeuthis dux)

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Our glorious death emperor Vlad perhaps?

[Honk]

You mean our glorious buccaneer Vlad and Isabella, Queen of the seven sees ??