Hidden Agendas. New official rules for secondary objectives.

[Chikout]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/10/01/a-new-kind-of-matched-play-scoringgw-homepage-post-3/

So,  what does everyone think?

[robinlvalentine]

Is the download link working for anyone? I just get a 404.

[SwampHeart]

I think there is a lot of merit to the idea of secondary objectives, especially as the secondary qualifier/tie breaker after W/L/D. I haven't had a chance to read the specific one's GW's offered (by virtue of the download link not working) I'm pretty excited to see their take on it. 

[Requizen]

Download seems to work now:

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/AoS2_GHB19_Hidden_Agendas_Download-1-1.pdf

[svnvaldez]

30 minutes ago, Chikout said:

So,  what does everyone think?

Everything that is clear guidance by GW is great imo. This is infinitely better than arbitrary sidemissions that you see at a lot of tournaments. 

[Dead Scribe]

This looks a lot like the maelstrom stuff in 40k.  It seems very arbitrary and players have no control over what they draw, which can mean you lose the game because you happened to draw poorly while your opponent is luckier and draws better.

Great for narrative play.  Poor for matched play.

[michu]

If I'm not mistaken Hidden Agendas are part of Middle-Earth SBG too.

[amysrevenge]

2 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

 It seems very arbitrary and players have no control over what they draw, which can mean you lose the game because you happened to draw poorly while your opponent is luckier and draws better.

My understanding from re-reading is that you would pick, not be subject to 1/12 randomness.

[michu]

Yep, you secrety pick one of objectives before the game.

[Requizen]

I like them. All seem fairly well score-able by every army depending on matchup/mission, but none seem easy. It'll be a good addition to games. 

[Dead Scribe]

Oh ok, if you can pick them then you don't get screwed over by randomness, so I would be for that.

[Ryan Taylor]

We have been using something like this for  years in CO. Some random some where you get to pick. Definitely fun and adds an extra dimension to the games. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

I like them but not so sure of the triumph rewards. If stomp your opponent and choose an easy to score HA you get 2 triumphs. If you are also less points then you can expect to get 2-3 per game. I'm not sure if that isn't making a naturally strong list even stronger, while punishing weaker lists who won't be able to use as many triumphs in their following games. 

As a way to determine tie-breaks though I think it's great. 

[amysrevenge]

4 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

I like them but not so sure of the triumph rewards. If stomp your opponent and choose an easy to score HA you get 2 triumphs. If you are also less points then you can expect to get 2-3 per game. I'm not sure if that isn't making a naturally strong list even stronger, while punishing weaker lists who won't be able to use as many triumphs in their following games. 

As a way to determine tie-breaks though I think it's great. 

I think the Triumph thing is for Open/Narrative play.

[Tropical Ghost General]

8 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

I think the Triumph thing is for Open/Narrative play

I thought that at first, but it reads that in addition to their normal rules HAs can be used for tie breakers as well. I didn't see anything in the article or the download that said the triumphs weren't for matched play (but then again I do need glasses and may have misread it) 

[Dead Scribe]

I think it would be if you don't achieve mission objectives but you did achieve secondary objective, that you would win if your opponent did NOT achieve it.

[rokapoke]

1 minute ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

I thought that at first, but it reads that in addition to their normal rules HAs can be used for tie breakers as well. I didn't see anything in the article or the download that said the triumphs weren't for matched play (but then again I do need glasses and may have misread it) 

As with all versions of play, you and your opponent decide what is right for your game. In the case of a matched play tournament, the pack will define the rules for things like triumphs and the like. If I recall correctly, Adepticon did not use triumphs (unless you had the smaller army, pointwise).

[Tropical Ghost General]

2 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

Adepticon did not use triumphs (unless you had the smaller army, pointwise).

But I thought that was the only way to get triumphs anyway (until these HAs things) or is there another way? 

[amysrevenge]

3 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

But I thought that was the only way to get triumphs anyway (until these HAs things) or is there another way? 

What means "smaller" in Open Play?

[Overread]

Page 233 of the BRB second half the the Wizards page in the core rules (if reading on the shorter version online); the Triumph table!

Triumphs are generated based on previous games, which clearly only functions if you are in a series of set games situation. 

 

For Matched Play, page 311 however states that you only roll if you have less points than your opponent on the tabletop and that its not based of any previous game state. 

 

Either way the Triumphs are only one of three one-time-use re-rolls. Whilst nice to have and can certainly be used to good effect, they are not vast game changers and many armies have means to generate those same re-rolls through their own synergies or other properties. Esp since you can't reroll a reroll they are not totally broken. So the expanded use of that table if you achieve your secret victory is not too broken.

Also you can ignore that aspect if you want and purely use it to help generate an additional layer of scores for the game. Allowing armies that might not achieve their primary goals to at least score well on hidden goals. 

Overall I think its a nice idea, its trying to add some additional layers to the tournament scene scoreboard without adding in aspects like painting or sportsmanship which are not based on player game skill. Plus the fact that they are hidden makes it easier for some armies to achieve their hidden goals even if their primary is nearly impossible to achieve due to the balance of the game and the army matchup. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 minute ago, amysrevenge said:

What means "smaller" in Open Play?

The army without the phoenix temple dragon spam ?. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Overread have you not had games turned around by having access to re-rolls you wouldn't normally get. If you know that you have 2-3 re-roll hits that any of your units can use at any point, that is definitely having an upper hand advantage. Or am I putting too much emphasis on their effectiveness? 

[ianob]

Copy pasted my answer from elsewhere, regarding scoring:

 

The important thing is that games should be atomic, the specific outcome of a game beyond win/loss shouldn’t affect tournament standing, which is why kill points were an issue. Now you have 3 extra TP for agendas and the problem isn’t solved, it’s just moved, easier games are still more likely to give you max points and harder games/opponents are likely to punish your tournament standing. On top of this, there’s a pretty good chance that multiple people on 5-0 will all have completed their agendas too so it also doesn’t create much variation in the tiebreaker anyway. All in all, I don’t think this adds anything to competitive events other than another random element to the pot of army+opponent+ mission+realm.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

Thinking about it in a multi game tournament perspective, which is what it seems to be designed for, it will be a much better and interesting game if these are what you play for over kill points in case of a VP draw (which happens often enough). 

Ignoring the triumph, it has solid merit as a better decider compared to kill points. 

It will also make the game more interesting if you’re likely to draw as you’re both trying to figure out each other’s hidden agenda and stop them. 

Looking forward to playing it out at blood and glory next month. 

[Overread]

Secret Mission - curious one as once players are aware it exists it should be fairly easy to spot their opponent rushing a model into enemy lines. However at the same time in order to activate it, the player has to sacrifice that hero model from their army; so whilst they've every reason to want to get there fast, they also want to keep that model around. This is one that I can see being used to trick opponents on a lot; rushing a hero as a sacrifice so that the opponent diverts resources to kill it, even though you've not taken this card.

Ancient Heirlooms - a nice easish one to achieve, certainly not difficult to setup your army for it. 

Terrify - will work with some armies more than others, more of a gamble as it requires a specific kill situation and thus ones opponent also has to come into consideration. You wouldn't take this against a tough fearless army. 

Invade - A bit like secret mission, though as you can't remove the models form play you have more reason and pressure to keep them alive or only move them into position at the last moment possible.

Sieze - This one would seem to build a win ontop of a win since most maps with objectives are going to score based on objectives. Almost a bit cheeky as its a two for one deal and might make this one more popular than many others. 

Defend - Interesting counter objective, if you take it at the same time an opponent takes something like Invade then its going to generate interesting battle results. However at the same time it might be a nice safe one to take as many times there's no need to enter the full other side of the map 

Slay - very dependent on the army you're facing and on your knowledge of that army. Could be a curious one to tease the opponent with as most times you'll gun for big heros anyway and if you start asking "how many wounds has your top hero got" before the game starts it might hint at having taken this one. Another one that might be a neat way to trick and distract your opponent. 

Conserve - Very risky one here, much harder for many armies to achieve and I can see it being very situational as to which armies will even try to use it and aganist which opponents. Might be one that acts a bit like a win ontop of a win as most times pplayers might only take this is when they already know they can steam-roll the enemy

Attrition - Opposite of conserve, but similarly a very risky choice that, to my mind, would build a win onto of a win. 

Linebreaker - again like conserve and attrition. 

Centre Ground - A curious one that might build a win ontop of a win, but at the same time as central objectives can often be the hardest to take and hold it might be a neat way to focus on the middle and take a lose (having held the middle but losing the wings) but gain a point through this. 

Sacrifice - Interesting one that might be quite fun in manyways; at least if you are on the losing end it encourages more wild-card attacks to be undertaken to lose that highest costing hero (after the general).

Overall a real spread, some appear to eek a win out an already typical game winning state. Whilst some others appear to be neat ways to do some non-typical things that can confuse an opponent. They also serve, more than anything, as a neat distraction. Start moving a unit fast to the enemy lines and force your opponent to consider diverting units to counter even if your actual hidden objective is to secure the middle (for example).