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UnderworldsOnly

Let's Chat: Stormsire's Cursebreakers

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First impressions

Pros:
+ Spells and Stormsire's Spell Attack seem to be pretty reliable
+ Good durability after inspiring. Evocators effectively have permanent Guard token, even after Charge.
+ Some very easy objective cards like Harness the Storm, Magical Supremacy, and Measured Strike
+ Strong utility/defensive cards like Aetherwing Stance, Empathic Conduction, Gather the Storm, Safeguard Spirit
+ Decent choice of offensive cards like Lightning Assault, Stormstrike
+ AOE damage through Chain Lightning and Cry of Thunder
+ Full control over their inspire mechanic - can cast Empower, Stormsire use a 3 ranged attack, or inspire easily through Gambit spells

Cons:
- Magic is not very potent, often doing 1 or 2 damage
- Limited options for Cleave (not a big deal since spells ignore defense)
- Long setup time. Spending actions on Empower. (This will become less of an issue as more Gambit Spells are added to the game)
- Other warbands can deal crippling blows before you have a chance to get your buffs up
- Only 3 models makes it difficult to play objectives and also be aggressive
- 2 damage per hit is not enough against 4 health

What do you think of this warband so far?

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I'm quite optimistic for their future. I get the feeling that the more Gambit spells are released the more we'll be able to capitalize on the fact that all three of the fighters are casters.

Having played 3 games yesterday and trying out a deck that focused on making Averon as tanky and lethal as possible, I was quite happy with the results. Getting the +1 spell damage upgrade (Tempest's Might) on him makes his fulmination a whopping 3 damage with a 3 hex range. Combining this with Trap and Shattering Terrain will push you into the 4 damage territory. Even Cry of Thunder can be used to chip off the last point of life on 4 health models after a 3 damage fulmination.

Similarly if you can get the +1 spell damage upgrade out before you play Cry of Thunder, you're looking at 2 damage you can lay down anywhere on the board which hits nearby targets.

For the most part I was running Ammis and Rastus as blockers, not being too concerned if people brought them down and not even particularly trying very hard to inspire them. I will say however that in my last game I opted to use an Empower on Ammis early and she put in some serious work. I didn't realize at first that inspired she goes up to 3 hammers + 3 damage, which is an incredible baseline attack. I'm not sure what other fighters in Underworlds get up to 3H 3D other than Tefk inspired.

There's still a ton to experiment with and get a feel for. I'll definitely be trying out some builds that don't go so all in on Averon in the coming weeks!

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We played 2 games last night (best of three, I won first two, so no third) and enjoyed both new warbands a lot. We used the pre-built decks.

I think both will be great fun, and look forward to seeing where the season goes.

Spells add a nice option for GW to put out new cards that are not just renamed versions of other cards, and they also will keep things fresh.

So far, this Stormcast warband is the only one of the three that interests me enough to play them more than a game here and there.

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On 10/1/2018 at 12:16 PM, UnderworldsOnly said:

Limited options for Cleave (not a big deal since spells ignore defense)

Gambit spells ignore defense, but spell Attack actions don’t, as far as I know. 

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15 hours ago, Tutenkharnage said:

Gambit spells ignore defense, but spell Attack actions don’t, as far as I know. 

That is correct, but I think the "see cleave bring cleave" meta is going to fade away over the course of Nightvault for two reasons:

1. There are many Dodge warbands coming into the game. Tzeentch, Grots, Darkoath, Nighthaunt, probably Sylvaneth, and maybe Moonclan all look like they use dodge primarily.  More dodge warbands in the meta means more matchups where Cleave is a dead card.

2. Gambit spells do damage that bypasses defense entirely, further reducing the need for Cleave cards

That said, if they print a "spell attacks gain cleave" card then I will probably slot it into my Cursebreakers deck.

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I'm enjoying them so far though I've not decided what kind of objectives I'd like to run them with.

Inspired Dawnguard is a beast on the attack. 

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On 10/1/2018 at 6:36 PM, Skyeline said:

Similarly if you can get the +1 spell damage upgrade out before you play Cry of Thunder, you're looking at 2 damage you can lay down anywhere on the board which hits nearby targets.

 

I believe the upgrade if for spell attack actions only? If it's not, happy days

 

Having playing a couple of games with the intro decks, I may end up maining the Cursebreakers.

 

Measured strike and precise use of force combined with a really good damage spread (1,2,3) and gambit spells that do 1 damage makes these solid scores. Trap and the upgrade for Rastus/Ammis which does +1 damage as a reaction gives you multiple ways of scoring measured strike.

 

3 damage on fulmination with a single upgrade is massive.

 

Similar to Dwarves, I think Round 1 will be about buffing up, scoring some passives and getting upgrades out, then they can go full aggro and do it very well. They are less resilient than the other Stormcast warbands, but more resilient against Cleave, which is nice.

The biggest challenge with them is 2 fold - having the right passives to score glory early (and therefore having the right balance in the deck between passive and score immediates) and they are extremely action hungry - empower and corposant staff are great but take actions to use. They'll want Ready for Action, Time Trap, possibly My Turn. Charge, Time Trap, Charge, Illusory fighter on 3 damage fulmination is a game changer.

 

I think they'll play really well into hyper aggro like magores and orrucks. They have the range to get at defensive stormcast. They have the AOE and damage spread to deal with scaven, skellies and nighthaunt. Where they might struggle is the fast aggro warbands like reavers, nighthaunt (yes they're in 2 categories), super buffed skritch and those that can keep them at range like farstriders.

Overall, well balanced, excited to play them. Plus, they are basically DND Paladins - holy warriors that use magic and swords on a quest from their god to save their race. I am ON BOARD.

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2 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

I believe the upgrade if for spell attack actions only? If it's not, happy days

It is indeed for spell attack actions only. I got a little ahead of myself in the early days of the warband being available. Amusingly enough for the couple of games I played where I got the upgrade out before realizing my mistake, I never even got a chance to use it with Cry of Thunder or Chain Lightning in the wrong way. It just came down to 3 damage fulminations punishing everything that tried walking towards my side of the board.

I agree with the rest of your assessment, though two things stick out to me:

1. I think Corposant staff isn't generally worth it in my experience so far. I've never found that I was in a situation where having to blow an action on a buff wouldn't be better than just shooting a fulmination or making a charge with someone. Would be interested however in hearing your thoughts about it if you've found it useful.

2. I'm not sure I'd put Nighthaunt on the same fast tier as Reavers and Skaven. So far my experience in fighting agro nighthaunt (around 8 games now) is that they don't close the gap fast enough with enough hard hitting attacks to put the pressure on me before chainrasps start simply getting swatted down and glory starts flowing. Empowered Ammis with hurricane step in particular is brutal for dancing around and killing chainrasps.

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I havent seen anyone pilot the nighthaunt well enough yet to make a call on it. I do think they have a lot of tools that make them a threat.

 

On corposant staff, its on the bubble for me. I think it has its place i think when dealibg with defensive stormcast to extend averon's threat range to 7 hexes.

Hurricane step i completely blanked on. Great upgrade. 

Im actually struggling atm to make a deck cut to fit great concussion. If one of the new neutral cards can replace Alone In The Darkness, i may not run either for a while and see how it flows.

 

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2 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

I havent seen anyone pilot the nighthaunt well enough yet to make a call on it. I do think they have a lot of tools that make them a threat.

No disagreement from me that they definitely have the tools to be a threat. I'm sure we'll see some wicked Nighthaunt play emerge over time as people get more familiar with the team. So far though I get the vibe that they'll have a tough time with teams who put out good range pressure.

Watching them play against Ironskull's and Spiteclaw's usually resulted in both teams getting overwhelmed with aggressive supporting chainrasps the moment that combat started somewhere. That seemed to give the ghosts the edge in those matches.

A variant of a Nighthaunt deck I haven't seen yet though is to load up on attack action upgrades (i.e. shadeglass/daemonic wep). Hoping I get to play against a variant like that soon to see how it fares!

 

Regarding Corposant staff-- going for a charge fulmination with the +1 range on Averon does seem like it could make for some wild last-activation snipes. I'll leave it in my deck for another weekend of play and see how it goes.

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I'm going to fool around with something similar to this for now:

 

https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,N4,N6,N7,234,252,257,259,250,282,284,291,306,N12,N15,329,330,331,348,356,368,369,L37,N23,N24,N25,N27,373,374,376,384,389,409

 

This is subject to to change with the new universal cards dropping over the weekend (From both new warbands and the new stand alone pack). Hot tip - Lightning Whip combined with ShadeGlass axe or dagger, gives you some sneaky Range 3 Damage 3/4 (4 on crit) offensive capability - Lightning whip has no mention of a range restriction.

Stack of easy to score passive and score immediately cards - I've stayed completely away from any objective cards at this point.

Some cards I would consider adding

- the spell that adds a lethal hex for the activation - Drop this behind someone and then push them in with Fulmination / concussion.

- Spell that allows you to use a used ploy / gambit (even though its somewhat unreliable to cast the potential is huge).

- Katophrane tomes - Throw them on Stormsire and watch him become a late game glory machine.

 

Without seeing too much else out of the new stuff this looks to be rather interesting. General premise is to buff Averon up and let him go ham with Fulmination poking. (Shardgale is there to add some early poke, and combine that with Cry of Thunder and you might be able to pop 1-3 Raps / Petitioners depending on how your opponent has their fighters set up. Its even a threat to 3 wound models if you have Tempests might out. I'd love to fit Tainted Vitality into this, but just cant justify, maybe drop hidden reserves for it instead.

Edited by Desidus
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2 hours ago, Desidus said:

Its even a threat to 3 wound models if you have Tempests might out

I think you might be making the same mistake I did when I first saw Cursebreaker's cards. Tempest's Might only works on Spell Attack actions. Meaning it's restricted to fulmination. Not that it really changes my desire to keep it in the deck. 3 Damage fulminations are just amazing.

Other than that, good catch on the Lightning Whip! I'm definitely tempted to play around with Shadeglass darts more so than the Axe. I'm admittedly biased since I can count on one hand the number of times that damn axe throw actually worked despite keeping it in my Ironskull's deck for quite a long time.

Your objective deck is also 1 card away from being a copy of mine. I've been running Alone in the darkness instead of Victory after Victory. It's been working excellently so far!

I'll say with the setup that you're going for I can absolutely see taking Hidden Reserves out for Tainted Vitality. You're already rocking the healing potion, Great Fortitude, and Deathly Fortitude as ways to draw out the lifespan of Averon. Assuming the healing potion 50/50 rolls in your favor, that's 5 extra life to work with.

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26 minutes ago, Skyeline said:

I think you might be making the same mistake I did when I first saw Cursebreaker's cards. Tempest's Might only works on Spell Attack actions. Meaning it's restricted to fulmination. Not that it really changes my desire to keep it in the deck. 3 Damage fulminations are just amazing.

Other than that, good catch on the Lightning Whip! I'm definitely tempted to play around with Shadeglass darts more so than the Axe. I'm admittedly biased since I can count on one hand the number of times that damn axe throw actually worked despite keeping it in my Ironskull's deck for quite a long time.

Your objective deck is also 1 card away from being a copy of mine. I've been running Alone in the darkness instead of Victory after Victory. It's been working excellently so far!

I'll say with the setup that you're going for I can absolutely see taking Hidden Reserves out for Tainted Vitality. You're already rocking the healing potion, Great Fortitude, and Deathly Fortitude as ways to draw out the lifespan of Averon. Assuming the healing potion 50/50 rolls in your favor, that's 5 extra life to work with.

Ah you are correct! Still, dealing 2 damage, near board wide to the fighters of your choice is nothing to complain about! Both also will contribute to Measured strike,. Advancing Strike or Precise use of force. Which makes scoring these already some what easy cards, much easier. Especially with the influx of 2Wound fighters coming into play, with 4/12 warbands utilizing them. Its also enough damage poke, to make 3wound / 4 wound fighters question whether they should commit. 

 

I've always had more success with the Axe than the Darts. To be fair, the times it hasn't worked for me are just as numerous as the times it has. The difference for me being that previously it would have been thrown by a petitioner instead of a worthwhile fighter - Best thing about that combo is that if it does succeed, your base damage when inspired is still 4.

I've never really been a fan of alone in the darkness, and with the number of "swarm warbands" hitting the shelves I can't see that changing. 

Honestly, Deathly Fortitude and A destiny to meet are probably the first two upgrades I'd look at dropping for any of the new stuff (It's not really ideal to reduce Averons movement when he's your key piece), and I'd love to fit in the +1 attack dice on the next activation ploy, however the Gambits are just super crowded.

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@Desidus Based on my research, you don’t want to run Flawless Strategy and Victory after Victory in the same deck. VAV wants more than four score-immediately cards, and FS wants three or fewer such cards that can be scored very consistently. (Keep in mind that Flawless Strategy only counts objective cards scored in the end phase, not the entire round.) Alao by my count, Superior Tactician should start going off regularly if you have at least four score-immediately cards. This means that your deck might be able to include VAV and ST at your current 6/5/1, but these cards will still sometimes gum each other up. 

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37 minutes ago, Tutenkharnage said:

@Desidus Based on my research, you don’t want to run Flawless Strategy and Victory after Victory in the same deck. VAV wants more than four score-immediately cards, and FS wants three or fewer such cards that can be scored very consistently. (Keep in mind that Flawless Strategy only counts objective cards scored in the end phase, not the entire round.) Alao by my count, Superior Tactician should start going off regularly if you have at least four score-immediately cards. This means that your deck might be able to include VAV and ST at your current 6/5/1, but these cards will still sometimes gum each other up. 

You're not wrong.  Flawless Strategy would be the first objective card that I swap out this weekend with the new universals. 

Im looking forward to putting this deck through its paces, it's playstyle is going to be quite different to my Take all comers Sep Guard.

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Great catch on shadeglass darts and lightning whip. Another range 3 threat for 3 damage is big.

Im going to start with a 22 card deck and see what doesnt make the cut. Similar to dwarves - round 1 is getting the buffs up and getting a couple of glory ready to gk full aggro.

 

https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,N4,N6,N7,234,235,252,272,284,291,L24,257,N14,N15,N18,332,347,348,368,369,N11,N12,N21,N23,N25,N27,395,420,424,N506,273,N505,376,N24,329

 

I skipped the healing stuff because meta here is absolutely 1 shot kill territory

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If you are facing a 1shot kill meta you should definitely put Aetherwing Stance into your deck. It works on all your fighters, so it's a good defensive boost no matter who your enemy decides to target. 

3 defense Stormsire is very tanky, but inspired Rastus and Ammus on 2 dice are very hard to take down as well. Sometimes its the extra defense you need to make an aggressive charge with Stormsire to put yourself into position for a Chain Lightning, or to keep Rastus/Ammis alive after they push into enemy territory with Hidden Path.

Cry of Thunder doesn't seem worthwhile. While it can really punish people for stacking up I find that casting on 2 channel is not reliable, and you need to fill your deck with Innate cards. 

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16 hours ago, Desidus said:

I'm going to fool around with something similar to this for now:

 

https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,N4,N6,N7,234,252,257,259,250,282,284,291,306,N12,N15,329,330,331,348,356,368,369,L37,N23,N24,N25,N27,373,374,376,384,389,409

 

This is subject to to change with the new universal cards dropping over the weekend (From both new warbands and the new stand alone pack). Hot tip - Lightning Whip combined with ShadeGlass axe or dagger, gives you some sneaky Range 3 Damage 3/4 (4 on crit) offensive capability - Lightning whip has no mention of a range restriction.

Stack of easy to score passive and score immediately cards - I've stayed completely away from any objective cards at this point.

Some cards I would consider adding

- the spell that adds a lethal hex for the activation - Drop this behind someone and then push them in with Fulmination / concussion.

- Spell that allows you to use a used ploy / gambit (even though its somewhat unreliable to cast the potential is huge).

- Katophrane tomes - Throw them on Stormsire and watch him become a late game glory machine.

 

Without seeing too much else out of the new stuff this looks to be rather interesting. General premise is to buff Averon up and let him go ham with Fulmination poking. (Shardgale is there to add some early poke, and combine that with Cry of Thunder and you might be able to pop 1-3 Raps / Petitioners depending on how your opponent has their fighters set up. Its even a threat to 3 wound models if you have Tempests might out. I'd love to fit Tainted Vitality into this, but just cant justify, maybe drop hidden reserves for it instead.

why acrobatic? :D

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Just at a cursory glance I would say because Ammis and Rastus can get dodge defense when inspired.  I think however since they still innately have shields, and acrobatic only procs on shields when a fighter goes on guard, it might not work.   The only reason I would argue from this side is that their fighter card just says "Rolls of shield and dodge are successes when this fighter is the target of an attack action."  They would need to have taken the guard action to benefit from acrobatic if viewed from this way since the symbol for their defense does not change on the inspired side, you just get the benefits of guard without the action.  I would wager this should be answered by an official FAQ since it can be argued from both sides.

Edited by Gash Bauer
Spelling and Addition

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14 minutes ago, Gash Bauer said:

Just at a cursory glance I would say because Ammis and Rastus can get dodge defense when inspired.  I think however since they still innately have shields, and acrobatic only procs on shields when a fighter goes on guard, it might not work.   The only reason I would argue from this side is that their fighter card just says "Rolls of shield and dodge are successes when this fighter is the target of an attack action."  They would need to have taken the guard action to benefit from acrobatic if viewed from this way since the symbol for their defense does not change on the inspired side, you just get the benefits of guard without the action.  I would wager this should be answered by an official FAQ since it can be argued from both sides.

Exactly what I was thinking...don’t think it goes together 

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It's unfortunate, because I am definitely trying to find ways to get them an extra defense die.  I'm partially considering cursed artifact, however with three fighters losing a wound to an upgrade is tough.  Part of my reasoning is that most of my store meta is based around the 4 damage one shot, and getting an extra defense on a fighter that would die anyway might be worth the trade off.

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3 hours ago, UnderworldsOnly said:

If you are facing a 1shot kill meta you should definitely put Aetherwing Stance into your deck. It works on all your fighters, so it's a good defensive boost no matter who your enemy decides to target. 

3 defense Stormsire is very tanky, but inspired Rastus and Ammus on 2 dice are very hard to take down as well. Sometimes its the extra defense you need to make an aggressive charge with Stormsire to put yourself into position for a Chain Lightning, or to keep Rastus/Ammis alive after they push into enemy territory with Hidden Path.

Cry of Thunder doesn't seem worthwhile. While it can really punish people for stacking up I find that casting on 2 channel is not reliable, and you need to fill your deck with Innate cards. 

I typed a lengthy response but phone ate it.

 

Long story short: aetherwing stance and the neutral card with the same effect are definitely in my thinking. Hidden paths is not in the deck because of the way i plan to play the warband but that might change. Cry of thunder is easier to cast than chain lightning with better range and the 2 cards i have dedicated to innates also help with empowering ammis.

 

All things are subject to change when i start testing in earnest. First tournament is 28th october

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7 hours ago, RocketMan said:

why acrobatic? :D

Chuck it onto Averon, And then throw him on guard. With his reach and Hurricane step, you shouldn't have to charge with him, and it gives him 3 defence dice when inspired.

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36 minutes ago, Desidus said:

With his reach and Hurricane step, you shouldn't have to charge with him, and it gives him 3 defence dice when inspired.

Hurricane step is restricted to Ammis and Rastus, unfortunately. If I could scoot Averon around after every Fulmination... oof.

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1 minute ago, Skyeline said:

Hurricane step is restricted to Ammis and Rastus, unfortunately. If I could scoot Averon around after every Fulmination... oof.

Ah you are correct - Sleep deprivation is getting the better of me right now.

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