Let's Chat: Stormsire's Cursebreakers

[Desidus]

8 hours ago, Tutenkharnage said:

It’s kind of janky, but I’m considering packing Mischievous Spirits alongside Intervention so that it retains some usefulness against aggro warbands. Just have to figure out where they’ll be and place your objective tokens accordingly. Probably too fancy to be worthwhile, but Intervention does score immediately and should be a good card against objective-holding warbands, so it might be worth the effort. 

@PJetski: Why do you think Farstriders would prefer Irresistible Prize to Centre of Attention? I’m still working through my first real foray into Farstriders and can’t see the allure (outside of the aforementioned Intervention).

What are the odds of you actually having all 3 of said cards in your hand consistently to score this though? I feel like you would be better off on utilizing other cards not so reliant on 2 or more to effectively score against 1/3rd of your potential opponents.

7 hours ago, PJetski said:

Farstriders only have 3 models and they want to stay spread out on the edges for cards like HP, Skirting Danger, and Extreme Flank, so they often won't be able to use COA defensively, but IP offers some defensive utility as well as offensive utility - it can also pull enemies onto objectives to set up kills with Lethal Ward.

If you start thinking about objectives like Lethal and Blocked hexes then there's a lot of fun tricks you can pull off. Zealous Defender is a strictly better version of Helpful Whispers if you can sit on an objective, Lethal Ward is guaranteed damage from anywhere on the board, and Irresistible Prize is one of the most versatile push cards in the game.

Here's an anecdote: In the third round of a tournament I was playing Farstriders vs Cursebreakers. In the first game I predicted he was trying to score Extreme Flank and I was able to use it to pull him off an edge to deny it (and I guessed right!). In the second game I used IP to deny a Hidden Paths kill. When he HP'd into my backline I was able to get out of range of his attacks by using IP - if that was COA then I wouldn't have been able to do that.

CoA is used defensively by targeting the enemy warband, to pull someone back outside of charge range or to mess around with their movement. I rarely use CoA on my own fighters unless I am pulling Averon back out out of range of a 2 move fighter he failed to kill.

I would Argue that CoA is just as versatile, just with a different restriction! Against one opponent you may prefer one, against another you might wish you had the other.

[Tutenkharnage]

Well, as I said, it’s a bit janky. If I were to actually carry Intervention, Mischievous Spirits, and Irresistible Prize, I wouldn’t need all three in hand to score the objective; I’d just need one of the two ploys plus the objective, or I could score the objective by pushing a fighter into an objective with a pistol shot and then charging in. And if I were playing against an objective-holding warband, which is a popular breed these days, I wouldn’t need either ploy to score the objective. 

[Desidus]

19 hours ago, Tutenkharnage said:

Well, as I said, it’s a bit janky. If I were to actually carry Intervention, Mischievous Spirits, and Irresistible Prize, I wouldn’t need all three in hand to score the objective; I’d just need one of the two ploys plus the objective, or I could score the objective by pushing a fighter into an objective with a pistol shot and then charging in. And if I were playing against an objective-holding warband, which is a popular breed these days, I wouldn’t need either ploy to score the objective. 

To take your idea a step further, take Encroaching shadow, shardgale and the spell that inflicts 1 damage on a fighter on an objective. 

 

Combine that with cry of thunder and Abasoths Unmaking, and you've got a rather nasty way of dealing a bunch of poke damage to objective decks. 

It would be a little harder to manage against aggro, and unmaking would be a dead card (apart from maybe inspiring stormsire) but that's still a lot of board wide ranged damage possibilities through gambits

[Tutenkharnage]

3 hours ago, Desidus said:

To take your idea a step further, take Encroaching shadow, shardgale and the spell that inflicts 1 damage on a fighter on an objective. 

 

Combine that with cry of thunder and Abasoths Unmaking, and you've got a rather nasty way of dealing a bunch of poke damage to objective decks. 

It would be a little harder to manage against aggro, and unmaking would be a dead card (apart from maybe inspiring stormsire) but that's still a lot of board wide ranged damage possibilities through gambits

Oh, those first three cards (Encroaching Shadow, Shardgale, and Lethal Ward) are part of the jank plan. But the next two (Cry of Thunder and Abasoth's Unmaking) aren't; I wasn't clear earlier, but I was talking about a janky Farstriders list, not a janky Cursebreakers list.

[Desidus]

4 minutes ago, Tutenkharnage said:

Oh, those first three cards (Encroaching Shadow, Shardgale, and Lethal Ward) are part of the jank plan. But the next two (Cry of Thunder and Abasoth's Unmaking) aren't; I wasn't clear earlier, but I was talking about a janky Farstriders list, not a janky Cursebreakers list.

Why not both! At least with cursebreakers you get some additional infinite range poke, although at the cost of other gambits. 

Would you justify taking Tainted Vitality? 

I assume you're including Raptor Strike as well? 

And rocking Fighters Ferocity for Farstrider once inspired for sneaky 4 range damage 3 on crits? 

[Tutenkharnage]

Raptor Strike, yes; still on the fence regarding Fighter’s Ferocity. But I don’t want to hijack the thread, so I think I’ll save my thoughts for another post after some further playtesting. I definitely picked the wrong time to turn my attention to Farstriders, though 😂

[Desidus]

1 hour ago, Tutenkharnage said:

Raptor Strike, yes; still on the fence regarding Fighter’s Ferocity. But I don’t want to hijack the thread, so I think I’ll save my thoughts for another post after some further playtesting. I definitely picked the wrong time to turn my attention to Farstriders, though 😂

😂😂😂 I disagree, there's a bucketload more utility available now too. Although, I still can't help but feel like everything they can do, Stormsires can just do better.

[riddlesworth]

I'm getting some games in tomorrow with a few buddies. 1 local tournament winner with skellies post BAR list (last time out he tonked me because I was too aggressive) and a solid eyes of the 9 player. have taken a little bit of inspiration from katophranerelic blog as well as my own experience:

 

The addition of My Turn, which in the new meta is absolutely playable for me, alongside Ready For Action and Lightning Whip means Masterstroke becomes more scorable. Though without Trap/Pit Trap, it may be a troublesome score. But it did free up a restricted slot to include My Turn, which has a lot of value. I dropped Rend the Earth and Shardgale. Shardgale because of the many discussion we've had here and Rend the Earth because early on its a dead draw as its a 44% chance to cast and doesn't mesh with my playstyle, which is increasingly defensive of the first turn.

 

I've put Abasoth's Unmaking in there over Mischievous Spirits because (again as discussed here) while Mischievous Spirits is a better disruption for the objective game, it's significantly less useful against aggro and acts as a really easy inspire for Averon. In fact, there's only 1 spell I have that requires upgrade support (Cry of Thunder), so I've dropped 1 of the spell boosting upgrades for Sudden Growth, and added Great Speed. Sphere of Azyr is still on the bubble slightly, but it's another easy inspire should my opponent want to stand on objectives, which is likely in the current meta. Even Magore's are grabbing them on occasion.
 

[Desidus]

I think you could save yourself another restricted slot if you drop fired up in favour of Shining Example. 

 

Overall I like the look of your deck though!

[riddlesworth]

30 minutes ago, Desidus said:

I think you could save yourself another restricted slot if you drop fired up in favour of Shining Example. 

 

Overall I like the look of your deck though!

I have both. Fired up is such an easy score. In terms of replacing it, I'd probably use it for another restricted objective that's worth 2 points, likely extreme flank, possibly alone in the darkness. 

 

Singled Out and Chosen Champion are usually bang on turn 2 scores, but I don't want them in my first hand. It would be nice to bring back Soultrap or Tethered Spirit though

[PJetski]

8 hours ago, Desidus said:

😂😂😂 I disagree, there's a bucketload more utility available now too. Although, I still can't help but feel like everything they can do, Stormsires can just do better.

I feel the exact opposite. Control Farstrider (damage ploys and low-aggression objectives) versus any kind of Cursebreaker deck feels so heavily favoured to Farstriders right now. They have better movement, better zone control, longer range, more ranged attacks... they can sit back and draw cards until the Cursebreakers decide to move into range, easily scoring cards like Extreme Flank and Keep Them Guessing, and holding onto push cards (like Rangers, Advance) to deny Hidden Paths. 

I love playing Cursebreakers because you can easily fit 6+ immediate objectives and it's a lot of fun to cycle through your objective deck every game. Farstriders just seem to be in a better spot against every matchup.

The most exciting thing about Cursebreakers is that they are the best Wizard warband and their deckbuilding options keep exploding every time there's a new Nightvault expansion. I am really looking forward to each new card release now!

[riddlesworth]

5 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I feel the exact opposite. Control Farstrider (damage ploys and low-aggression objectives) versus any kind of Cursebreaker deck feels so heavily favoured to Farstriders right now. They have better movement, better zone control, longer range, more ranged attacks... they can sit back and draw cards until the Cursebreakers decide to move into range, easily scoring cards like Extreme Flank and Keep Them Guessing, and holding onto push cards (like Rangers, Advance) to deny Hidden Paths. 

Except a lot of the damage tricks for Farstriders went away in the BAR list. If they want Extreme Flank, Alone in the Darkness etc., its tough to fit Trap and Pit Trap in as well. Now, Gloryseeker and Fighter's Ferocity are a thing but, if in Game 1 what you describe happens, the Cursebreakers have the flexibility to go full aggro into Farstriders in game 2 & 3

[PJetski]

I'm talking about my experience in the BAR meta. Last weekend I took first place (18 players with 4 Cursebreakers warbands) using this Farstriders list: https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,257,243,N340,282,291,218,331,L16,369,335,N385,N373,437,N529,N543,384,225,229,232,N503,231,334,N441,N499,L24,N427,N486,330,N317,N412,N426,N546,356,234,289,211

Deploying my fighters split along back and edges, there was no way for the Cursebreakers to engage me. In the first game I sat back and drew cards (digging for push cards and inspire cards) until he moved into my territory, and he realized too late that my objectives were more efficient and he couldn't win unless he tried to kill me. By that point I had drawn enough cards to push him into an objective and killed one fighter each turn.

In the second game he played more aggressively but with Irresistable Prize, Hidden Paths, and Rangers, Advance I was able to counter his Hidden Paths and Spectral Wings. Once he was in my territory I pushed him into lethal hexes and finished him with damage ploys.

Control Farstriders is really strong and I think people just haven't adapted them to the BAR meta yet

[Desidus]

So I've played a stack of games over the last few days and my deck has gone through a number of different iterations. Its sitting much closer to your deck @riddlesworth than previously, isn't as aggressive as previous iterations with some more passive easy scoring objectives.

Gambits are still just as aggressive however.

See below:

[riddlesworth]

I don't like Crushing Force in a deck with no Great Strength. Becomes a very difficult score against the 4 health warbands. Rest looks peachy.

No room for My Turn?

 

How are you finding double draw cards in the power deck? (duel of wits and improvisation)

 

 

[Desidus]

5 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

I don't like Crushing Force in a deck with no Great Strength. Becomes a very difficult score against the 4 health warbands. Rest looks peachy.

No room for My Turn?

 

How are you finding double draw cards in the power deck? (duel of wits and improvisation)

 

 

It's not as hard to score as you would think against 4 wound warbands, Early poke with Rastus / Averon with Trap or Pit-trap puts them on 1 or 2 wounds, Its relatively easy for Amnis to get to 4 damage base with Gloryseeker.

Averon can go to 5 Damage with a crit with Glory seeker and fighters ferocity. I don't usually struggle with it.

I'm pretty comfortable without My Turn, my local scene won't push to 11/11 or 12/12, if we went 12/12 I would probably slot My Turn and Aggressive Defense.

Believe it or not, I haven't actually had a game yet where I have pulled both. I've had some horrific draw luck and have had both on the bottom of my deck in several games. It will even out over time, the games where I have had both it's been fantastic.

[riddlesworth]

Ugh mistook Crushing Force for No Remorse. Ignore me, totally get why it's there.

 

Deck looks great. Shuffling skills could clearly do with an improvement though

[riddlesworth]

So....

 

My deck and my.play with the cursebreakers is now too the point that I'm tilting my two regular opponents.

 

Comments I'm hearing are "its point and click", "theyre too good and the objectives are too easy", "you dont interact with the objectives at all", "it snowballs too easy, you can feasibly rattle through 8 objectives in the first turn and have an unassailable glory total", "do you think you could win as consistently with other warbands?"

 

So. Anyone else getting the backlash for being tier 1?

[Tutenkharnage]

@riddlesworth Out of curiosity, are you still playing the same deck you posted on November 29? If so, what are your regular opponents bringing against you?

[riddlesworth]

@Tutenkharnage no, Ive made some tweaks and it is just consistently solidly performing.

 

https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,N6,N7,N4,243,257,291,L24,N319,N371,N12,348,N389,N27,N499,N503,N25,N23,N473,N504,N400,N486,318,361,306,N385,272,N388,N15,343,333,N529,384

 

Both my regular opponents are local tournament winners so they are by no means scrubs.

One plays hybrid skellies (objective/aggro). The other runs eyes of the 9 and is a tougher matchup for me but i am now consistently beating both of them. They're describing a negative play experience with the deck and warband, despite being able to sneak the odd win.

[Desidus]

3 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

So....

 

My deck and my.play with the cursebreakers is now too the point that I'm tilting my two regular opponents.

 

Comments I'm hearing are "its point and click", "theyre too good and the objectives are too easy", "you dont interact with the objectives at all", "it snowballs too easy, you can feasibly rattle through 8 objectives in the first turn and have an unassailable glory total", "do you think you could win as consistently with other warbands?"

 

So. Anyone else getting the backlash for being tier 1?

I am dealing with a similar attitude when I play my curse breakers deck as well. It’s to the point that my regular guys don’t want to play against it so I ring 2-3 decks every week (defensive Chosen Axes and full objective Bedsheets). 

So I know where you’re at too. 

3 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

@Tutenkharnage no, Ive made some tweaks and it is just consistently solidly performing.

 

https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,N6,N7,N4,243,257,291,L24,N319,N371,N12,348,N389,N27,N499,N503,N25,N23,N473,N504,N400,N486,318,361,306,N385,272,N388,N15,343,333,N529,384

 

Both my regular opponents are local tournament winners so they are by no means scrubs.

One plays hybrid skellies (objective/aggro). The other runs eyes of the 9 and is a tougher matchup for me but i am now consistently beating both of them. They're describing a negative play experience with the deck and warband, despite being able to sneak the odd win.

The feedback I’ve been getting is similar, it’s a negative play experience and my opponents feel like it doesn’t matter what they do, the deck and warband is that good at consistently scoring it doesn’t matter whether I need to play to come from behind. 

[Tutenkharnage]

Oh, I'm not suggesting anything about your opponents. I was just wondering whether they were playing one sort of warband, and if so, what kind it was. I think the Cursebreakers are quite strong, and I think you've got more or less the perfect number of score-immediately objectives. (I originally aimed for eight or nine, but that's too high, even if your opponent does allow you to fight all the time.)

It's a good list. I like your trades of Masterstroke for What Armour? and Sphere of Azyr and Chain Lightning for Lightning Assault, as well as your dropping of Great Speed. Seems as though they make the deck much smoother. I can see why a Guard player would have a tough time dealing with it, and I think the Eyes of the Nine are a little below the curve, but I'm a little surprised they're both struggling all the time.

(Out of curiosity, you're not applying the damage bonus from Tempest's Might to Cry of Thunder, are you? I played against an Eyes of the Nine player at a tournament who thought TM applied to Rend the Earth and tried frying my last two Reavers with it.)

P.S. If you want to tilt them even harder, replace Great Fortitude with Potion of Constitution. You're already at 4 Wounds without any healing, so if someone hits you with Abasoth's Withering, they can't use Gloryseeker; in addition, if they carry Precise Use of Force, you can prevent them from scoring it.

[Tutenkharnage]

On 11/29/2018 at 9:57 AM, PJetski said:

I'm talking about my experience in the BAR meta. Last weekend I took first place (18 players with 4 Cursebreakers warbands) using this Farstriders list: https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,257,243,N340,282,291,218,331,L16,369,335,N385,N373,437,N529,N543,384,225,229,232,N503,231,334,N441,N499,L24,N427,N486,330,N317,N412,N426,N546,356,234,289,211

Deploying my fighters split along back and edges, there was no way for the Cursebreakers to engage me. In the first game I sat back and drew cards (digging for push cards and inspire cards) until he moved into my territory, and he realized too late that my objectives were more efficient and he couldn't win unless he tried to kill me. By that point I had drawn enough cards to push him into an objective and killed one fighter each turn.

In the second game he played more aggressively but with Irresistable Prize, Hidden Paths, and Rangers, Advance I was able to counter his Hidden Paths and Spectral Wings. Once he was in my territory I pushed him into lethal hexes and finished him with damage ploys.

Control Farstriders is really strong and I think people just haven't adapted them to the BAR meta yet

You should post that list in the Let's Chat thread for Sanson and pals:

Speaking of which, I feel as if the Let's Chat threads need a reboot. Who wants to start up "Under the Glass" or some such for various warbands? After all the new releases, as well as the BAR list, those old threads are showing their age a bit.

[riddlesworth]

5 hours ago, Tutenkharnage said:

It's a good list. I like your trades of Masterstroke for What Armour? and Sphere of Azyr and Chain Lightning for Lightning Assault, as well as your dropping of Great Speed. Seems as though they make the deck much smoother. I can see why a Guard player would have a tough time dealing with it, and I think the Eyes of the Nine are a little below the curve, but I'm a little surprised they're both struggling all the time.

(Out of curiosity, you're not applying the damage bonus from Tempest's Might to Cry of Thunder, are you? I played against an Eyes of the Nine player at a tournament who thought TM applied to Rend the Earth and tried frying my last two Reavers with it.)

P.S. If you want to tilt them even harder, replace Great Fortitude with Potion of Constitution. You're already at 4 Wounds without any healing, so if someone hits you with Abasoth's Withering, they can't use Gloryseeker; in addition, if they carry Precise Use of Force, you can prevent them from scoring it.

I can't even say at this point whether its just that I'm a better player than them until I go uo against the big hitters in the UK scene to really see where I'm at. And as they say, is it me or is it the warband/deck? No-one wants to be pre ban list Farstriders or defensive steelhearts.

 

No to the Tempest's Might question its a damage boost for fulmination only. Until neutral upgrades come out so rastus and ammis can fry fools at range.

 

Cheeky on potion of constitution! With Faneway crystal and 2 potions, replacing cry of thunder for infinite riches would be something I'd consider.

[Zimagic]

Riddlesworth, what boards are you running?

Do you change if you won or lost the roll? Same question Vs defensive or aggressive warbands?