Let's Chat: Stormsire's Cursebreakers

[riddlesworth]

Took the deck anyway. Played into reavers. Won 20-5, lost 12-7, won 16-6

 

Went straight aggro in the second game. That was an error. This is clearly a mid board holding warband.

 

Shardgale confirmed place in my deck. Its just.....so good putting people into that zone where any of my damage spells will take them out. Will be an absolute killer against scaven, gobbos, nighthaunt and skellies. It did, on occasion make measured strike/precise use of force harder to score, so.maybe an argument for switching precise to advancing or defensive strike.

 

Massive assault definitely out, but with all the single damage i have, maybe crushing force is worth the slot. Other than that i think the deck is pretty damn solid.

 

@Desidus spectral wings. Over hidden paths. I am on board

[Desidus]

41 minutes ago, riddlesworth said:

Took the deck anyway. Played into reavers. Won 20-5, lost 12-7, won 16-6

 

Went straight aggro in the second game. That was an error. This is clearly a mid board holding warband.

 

Shardgale confirmed place in my deck. Its just.....so good putting people into that zone where any of my damage spells will take them out. Will be an absolute killer against scaven, gobbos, nighthaunt and skellies. It did, on occasion make measured strike/precise use of force harder to score, so.maybe an argument for switching precise to advancing or defensive strike.

 

Massive assault definitely out, but with all the single damage i have, maybe crushing force is worth the slot. Other than that i think the deck is pretty damn solid.

 

@Desidus spectral wings. Over hidden paths. I am on board

If you are running Shardgale than Crushing force is definitely worth slotting. I also found that scoring Precise / Measured strike was harder with shardgale out but its not completely un-achievable. Unless you are playing against a stack of 2 wound warbands, but in that case - the glory you get from multiple kills on Rend the Earth or Cry of thunder makes up for that.

I typically run Advancing Strike as it is anyway (Its too good not too, and now that you're rocking shardgale, I'd definitely recommend as it's easy to score that with Cry of Thunder or Rend the Earth as well.

Spectral wings just provides so much fluidity to them, opens so many options. Suicide run in with that and then be cheeky by playing Illusory fighter. Works well if you drop Haymaker / Potion of Rage as well 😉

[Tutenkharnage]

Full disclosure: Whenever I build a new deck, the first question  I end up asking myself is, “Do I want to take Shardgale?” The answer is often yes. 

[Desidus]

21 minutes ago, Tutenkharnage said:

Full disclosure: Whenever I build a new deck, the first question  I end up asking myself is, “Do I want to take Shardgale?” The answer is often yes. 

Meta Shake up, with a number of high model count low wound warbands running around, its a solid choice.

It will be interesting to see how Darkoath and the Troggoth band shake things up.

[riddlesworth]

Im maxed on restricteds so the choice is either precise use of force or advancing strike, though your point there is spot on. 

 

Same on illusory fighter. Its great, but the restricted objectives are just plain more valuable.

 

Agree on the new warbands. Both for them shakibg up the meta and the new neutrals in those sets. +1 wizard level upgrade would make my day

[Desidus]

I'd drop precise use of force for Advancing if I was you. You will probably find in the vast majority of the games that you will score it anyway. I never have any issues with scoring it and I also play in a rather Aggro heavy meta.

I know you are running a few more restricted Objectives compared to myself so I know how tight it can be to shuffle things around. 

I really doubt we will see a +1 wizard level upgrade, or I doubt we will see an Innate Focus symbol. I think its highly plausible that we will see cards based around re-rolling one or more magic dice, or cards like Damned pact / Ghoulish pact, where you take a damage and can do something. Potentially take a damage and reroll all dice. Of course I'm merely spit balling.

I would be surprised if we did see +1 wizard level. It would be much too strong for those wizards with Spell attack actions, not to mention becoming an Auto include into Cursebreakers as it more than doubles your chances of casting Empower on Amnis / Rastus + the added benefits.

[riddlesworth]

Its been something mentioned in twich streams. I agree with you that it would be too strong for eyes and cursebreakers despite being middling for everyone else.

Rerolls would be nice but we have potion of clarity. Why would you taks potion of clarity if you had something that worked all the time?

 

No way we get an innate focus either. But similar mechanos to tome/familiar is a maybe.

 

Exciting times. I'll test advancing strike next time out

[Desidus]

Ah I wasn't aware it had be dropped / mentioned in twitch streams ect. 

Potion of Clarity is just straight bad imo. One use re-roll Upgrade? I'd rather have that as a ploy, or a persisting spell that allows you to re-roll one dice. If it is persisting then there a multiple ways it can be counteracted between universal cards as well.

I already don't take potion of Clarity, the only Potion I can justify taking is Potion of Rage, as currently, it gives you the most bang for your buck. I doub't we see something similar to Awakened weapon but for spells. It would be nice, but I highly doubt it.

I could see similar mechanics to tome / familiar, that would also be a near must take for Vortemis / Stormsire though. Not to mention any of the other warbands that have core spell attacks or busted spells that go off on a focus.

I'm hanging tight for Kharadron, I think they will be my next Warband this season.

[riddlesworth]

9 hours ago, Desidus said:

Potion of Clarity is just straight bad imo. One use re-roll Upgrade? I'd rather have that as a ploy, or a persisting spell that allows you to re-roll one dice. If it is persisting then there a multiple ways it can be counteracted between universal cards as well.

I already don't take potion of Clarity, the only Potion I can justify taking is Potion of Rage, as currently, it gives you the most bang for your buck. I doub't we see something similar to Awakened weapon but for spells. It would be nice, but I highly doubt it.

Agreed. What I meant to say was, any card that grants a re-roll to spell attacks, or even just gambit spells, is straight better than potion of clarity. I like potion of rage because there are ties when Averon needs that extra oomph to push an attack through but its not making the cut right now.

 

9 hours ago, Desidus said:

I could see similar mechanics to tome / familiar, that would also be a near must take for Vortemis / Stormsire though. Not to mention any of the other warbands that have core spell attacks or busted spells that go off on a focus.

It would. The tricky balance is going to be between getting the upgrades to fuel channel spells and the upgrades to fuel focus spells while also having the other tools needed.

 

Hear you on Overlords. Was a massive Chosen Axe fanboy. And guns make 2 move much less painful

 

EDIT: Also, with change of tactics, harness the storm and 3 score immediately off kills, combination strike is a pretty consistent score and a great replacement if you have to take alone in the darkness out

And having just seen a glass winning gobbo power deck of 30 cards, i'm thinking duel of wits might not be a terrible idea. i am consistently emptying my power hand every round...

[Desidus]

I'm replying off my phone because it's 8:30pm and quoting on my phone never really works well. 

I drastically prefer Improvisation compared to Duel of Wits. There's no reason why you can't utilise that and empty your hand of upgrades with glory and use ploys to fish for the rest that you need too. 

I frequently find myself burning 19-20 cards with Improvisation in my deck.

[riddlesworth]

24 minutes ago, Desidus said:

I'm replying off my phone because it's 8:30pm and quoting on my phone never really works well. 

I drastically prefer Improvisation compared to Duel of Wits. There's no reason why you can't utilise that and empty your hand of upgrades with glory and use ploys to fish for the rest that you need too. 

I frequently find myself burning 19-20 cards with Improvisation in my deck.

Great point. If (like me) you're not comboing ploys (so not holding onto them) and you have passive glory to equip the upgrades out of your hand, Improvisation is a better call.

 

I could never bring myself in my old decks to play either Improvisation or Duel of Wits but the way I'm playing atm, its a legitimate option. Need to get some reps in with the deck as is though.

[Desidus]

1 hour ago, riddlesworth said:

Great point. If (like me) you're not comboing ploys (so not holding onto them) and you have passive glory to equip the upgrades out of your hand, Improvisation is a better call.

 

I could never bring myself in my old decks to play either Improvisation or Duel of Wits but the way I'm playing atm, its a legitimate option. Need to get some reps in with the deck as is though.

I generally try to build my decks in ways where they don't need multiple ploys to work in combination. Everything has a use and can be combined, however they also have stand alone uses. So for me, I'm never scared of throwing things away if I have to, or using them early to draw additional. Card economy is limited. 

[CTSparky]

4 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

And having just seen a glass winning gobbo power deck of 30 cards, i'm thinking duel of wits might not be a terrible idea. i am consistently emptying my power hand every round...

um can I get a list for that.  I'm using gobbos as a change of pace band when I get tired of cursebreakers. I'd like to see that list.

[riddlesworth]

1 hour ago, Desidus said:

I generally try to build my decks in ways where they don't need multiple ploys to work in combination. Everything has a use and can be combined, however they also have stand alone uses. So for me, I'm never scared of throwing things away if I have to, or using them early to draw additional. Card economy is limited. 

truth. I find it odd that the more we talk, the closer our decks get. Echo chamber? i mean, if we're both winning, s'all good

 

13 minutes ago, CTSparky said:

um can I get a list for that.  I'm using gobbos as a change of pace band when I get tired of cursebreakers. I'd like to see that list.

it's on facebook somewhere. they only had duel of wits to draw. and only 4 restricteds. but they won.

[Desidus]

8 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

truth. I find it odd that the more we talk, the closer our decks get. Echo chamber? i mean, if we're both winning, s'all good

Oh no doubt, what works for me is probably going to work for you and likewise. I still think there is some core differences in our decks, notably objectives and ploys. 

I really want to play around with Shadeglass darts, lightning step, lightning whip and flickering step all on the one fighter. 

Could continue to stack further with glory seeker and fighters ferocity if you wanted to get even more silly. 

Its like a mobile old school Repeater Bolt thrower 😂

[riddlesworth]

When ive had the darts/whip/gloryseeker combo out its been amazing. Multiple ways to win is huge.

[Tutenkharnage]

12 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

I could never bring myself in my old decks to play either Improvisation or Duel of Wits but the way I'm playing atm, its a legitimate option. Need to get some reps in with the deck as is though.

I have been running both in every deck for a long time now. I'll try to find time to post a topic about it soon, but in a nutshell, if you run a standard 20-card deck and then add a number of redraw ploys and a matching number of additional upgrades, then:

1. You will end up drawing slightly more "real ploys" (i.e., non-redraws) over the course of the game, but the difference will be small enough that you can comfortably call it a wash.
2. You will have an easy time scoring Ploymaster because (1) you will see the same number of "real ploys" but (2) you will also be using your redraws.
3. You will end up drawing more upgrades and should thus end the game with more of your glory used. 
4. If you are running Improvisation, you will occasionally be able to draw into one or two upgrades at the end of round 1 or round 2 that you can equip with any glory you score via end-phase objectives.

Anyway, the big takeaway is that redraws maximize the value of the glory you gain because you end up playing an extra upgrade or two, but you have to accept not always having a concrete game plan for the round.

[Desidus]

35 minutes ago, Tutenkharnage said:

Anyway, the big takeaway is that redraws maximize the value of the glory you gain because you end up playing an extra upgrade or two, but you have to accept not always having a concrete game plan for the round.

Regarding this, Every plan is perfect until the first shot is fired. I'm all for Fluidity as well, I hadn't considered taking both Duel of Wits and improvisation, that could definitely be well worth a play around. Although my latest deck iteration will make it quite hard to decide what to drop...

Here's my latest run around, due to get some testing done in tonight at my LGS.

[Tutenkharnage]

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you drop anything at all; I'm suggesting that you simply add two redraws and two upgrades, resulting in a 24-card power deck. (You can run a 20-card power deck with a redraw or two, but gambit slots are simply too valuable in general to be replacing with redraws.)

Since you're not averse to sending Rastus and Ammis on suicide runs, you're likely protecting Stormsire himself. A Destiny to Meet is out because of card restrictions, but Hero's Mantle is still available. It plays well with Sudden Growth and Great Fortitude.

But maybe you don't want a fighter-specific upgrade. Looks like you're focusing on increasing Wounds, so why not double down on this approach by packing Potion of Rage? In the absence of any healing, Potion of Rage is flat-out better than Great Fortitude, if only because you can mess with your opponent's ability to score Precise Use of Force. Trusted Defender and Champion's Fortitude aren't my favorite cards for shield defenders, but for Rastus and Ammis, who always defend on a single die, either card would increase their odds of getting a single success from 6/9 to 8/9 and would nearly double their odds of rolling a crit if that's the only roll that will save them. You could also try Blessed Armor for Stormsire himself, especially if you tend to put all the +Wounds upgrades on him. Or you could go with Deathly Fortitude and double down on worshiping Nurgle.

If you'd rather add some offense, consider Warding Blast to handle swarm warbands (or any two fighters, really), or Shadeglass Axe for more ranged goodness with extra damage; or Concealed Weapon for Rastus and Ammis, both of whom roll 3 hammers when inspired and can thus get to 4 or 5 damage fairly often (even though you might not want to mess with Measured Strike or Masterstroke kills); or Parrying Blade, which basically turns each fighter into a slightly better version of Ghartok.

Or, if you like magic, you now have room to stuff the Tome of Incantations into your backpack before you go hunting for relics.

So! As you can see, you have plenty of options, and these are only the ones that accentuate what you're already doing. If you want to go with a crazy one-off, you could even take a flyer on a card such as Ready for the Fight, which can help improve your fighters' mobility.

Cheers!

Edit: I somehow just noticed that you're already packing Improvisation. In that case, just add Duel of Wits to your deck and then pick a single upgrade. And if there's some gambit you're just dying to add to your deck, add that, too, and then add a twelfth upgrade. You'll still end up playing the same number of non-redraw gambits you'd play without the redraws, but you'll end up seeing an extra upgrade or two each game.

[riddlesworth]

11 hours ago, Tutenkharnage said:

I have been running both in every deck for a long time now. I'll try to find time to post a topic about it soon, but in a nutshell, if you run a standard 20-card deck and then add a number of redraw ploys and a matching number of additional upgrades, then:

1. You will end up drawing slightly more "real ploys" (i.e., non-redraws) over the course of the game, but the difference will be small enough that you can comfortably call it a wash.
2. You will have an easy time scoring Ploymaster because (1) you will see the same number of "real ploys" but (2) you will also be using your redraws.
3. You will end up drawing more upgrades and should thus end the game with more of your glory used. 
4. If you are running Improvisation, you will occasionally be able to draw into one or two upgrades at the end of round 1 or round 2 that you can equip with any glory you score via end-phase objectives.

Anyway, the big takeaway is that redraws maximize the value of the glory you gain because you end up playing an extra upgrade or two, but you have to accept not always having a concrete game plan for the round.

Good breakdown. Although if you can pull a couple of upgrades that you then play, increases the chances of pulling the remaining ploys from the deck. I'm consistently getting through 15 power cards in a game, leaving 0-5 ploys and 0-5 upgrades unplayed. Getting access to those last 5 cards is worth the ploy slot I think. I will bow to your experience on the more ploys is a wash thing. Ploymaster with 5 gambit spells makes me sad though

@Desidus Victory after Victory and Combination Strike is strong. Also, masterstroke with Trap, Pit Trap, Ready for Action and Lightning Whip. Tops. How you finding Flickering Image? Its always a bubble card that looks great but eventually gets cut.

 

[Desidus]

So I played two games tonight, one against a new player so I won't recount that, but I spent that game teaching him mechanics and talking about deck design. 

The second game I played was against a full aggro Magores deck that I helped design. (I fully regret helping him). 

 

In the first game he absolutely pushed my pants down. By scoring khornes champion (8 glory third end phase swing) for having just Magore alive (He was on 1 wound left). 

In the second game I played more conservatory and the snowball went in my direction. After I popped Illusory fighter to snag Magore down with averon (+tempest might, & Gloryseeker) in the second round. 

Third game we both stonewalled each other, it was a relatively frustrating affair with both of us fluffing rolls here and here. I won't the third game 5glory to 4. 

Definitely interested in playing against him more often, and I've convinced one of the other guys to play farstriders as well. So there should be plenty of competitive games coming my way soon. 

As an aside, I'm dropping shardgale for Duel of Wits. 

Had an interesting question today too. @Tutenkharnage might have a better idea, how do multiple Reactions work. I.e Trap & Pit trap. If you have both in hand can you play both at the same time? 

What about Lightning whip, then trap? Ect. 

[Desidus]

@riddlesworth flickering step is probably going to end up going down the same route for me to be honest. It's interesting but really just a bubble card 

[riddlesworth]

In the pre ban meta, Magores was never a problem for me because I'd played against them so much with Chosen Axes. Defensive deployment, don't give them a fight in round 1 then go in upgraded and it was much more even. In the new meta, I think they have more deck space for speed upgrades so could be trickier to play into.

Why drop Shardgale? What's the logic?

On the reaction point, depends on the window. So Trap is during an action that could drive an enemy back and Pit Trap is after an action that could drive an enemy back, so you can play both (Trap first, obviously).

Lightning Whip is after an attack action that succeeds. So I think Trap, then Lightning Whip is legit. Lightning Whip then Pit Trap is possibly the same window.

[DingK86]

1 hour ago, Desidus said:

So I played two games tonight, one against a new player so I won't recount that, but I spent that game teaching him mechanics and talking about deck design. 

The second game I played was against a full aggro Magores deck that I helped design. (I fully regret helping him). 

 

Can I bother you for that decklist. Doesn't need to be in this topic, so it doesn't derail too much. Struggling with making them work smoothly, mostly in scoring objectives.

[BaldoBeardo]

1 hour ago, Desidus said:

So I played two games tonight, one against a new player so I won't recount that, but I spent that game teaching him mechanics and talking about deck design. 

The second game I played was against a full aggro Magores deck that I helped design. (I fully regret helping him). 

 

In the first game he absolutely pushed my pants down. By scoring khornes champion (8 glory third end phase swing) for having just Magore alive (He was on 1 wound left). 

In the second game I played more conservatory and the snowball went in my direction. After I popped Illusory fighter to snag Magore down with averon (+tempest might, & Gloryseeker) in the second round. 

Third game we both stonewalled each other, it was a relatively frustrating affair with both of us fluffing rolls here and here. I won't the third game 5glory to 4. 

Definitely interested in playing against him more often, and I've convinced one of the other guys to play farstriders as well. So there should be plenty of competitive games coming my way soon. 

As an aside, I'm dropping shardgale for Duel of Wits. 

Had an interesting question today too. @Tutenkharnage might have a better idea, how do multiple Reactions work. I.e Trap & Pit trap. If you have both in hand can you play both at the same time? 

What about Lightning whip, then trap? Ect. 

My understanding was that a single reaction trigger can only trigger a single reaction (rulebook not to hand) with priority sequence handled by player order starting with next player to activate.

So trap & pit trap are exclusive, as they have the same trigger point.

Trap and lightning whip can work though, as Trap is triggered *during* the attack action at the point you determine that the enemy is to be pushed back.

Lightning whip triggers *after* a successful attack action, which means after the push back has been resolved.